National Postcodes to be introduced

recedite

plodder wrote: »

It seems the purpose of that list is make Section 6A of the Data protection Act 1998, not apply to postcodes. Section 6A relates to the "Right of data subject to object to processing likely to cause damage or distress"

I tend to agree, the legislation seems to be effectively "passing the buck" and absolving the postcode provider of any blame when (as expected) existing data protection laws are breached. Basically it is saying that the postcode and the database will not be to blame, but those who match the names to the postcode will be.

Trouwe Ier wrote: »

..anyone who knows my address can type it into Google Street View and see my house, what car I had in 2009, who my bin service provider was etc...

Right, but for those who currently have non-unique addresses which would make that impossible, that will change.
Then at some point in the future it seems inevitable that they will not even have to know your address, because somebody somewhere will have matched your name to your eircode.

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

Right, but for those who currently have non-unique addresses which would make that impossible, that will change.

Most of the world has had unique addresses for decades, databases of people's unique addresses and names have existed for decades, why is it you think that bringing the minority of addresses in Ireland in line with the rest of the world will have some sort of catastrophic dooms day scenario.

recedite

Its not a catastrophe. Its just a lessening of peoples privacy and data protection.
And yes, the same will happen gradually in other countries, as more and more info is gathered and made available on the internet. Before eircode we were less vulnerable than those other countries with unique addressing systems, that's all. After eircode, we will be more vulnerable than most, because of the availability of this digitised national database.

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

Its not a catastrophe. Its just a lessening of peoples privacy and data protection.
And yes, the same will happen gradually in other countries, as more and more info is gathered and made available on the internet. Before eircode we were less vulnerable than those other countries with unique addressing systems, that's all. After eircode, we will be more vulnerable than most, because of the availability of this digitised national database.

I don't feel any more vulnerable to be honest, currently there are probably dozens of companies out their that have a lot of my personal data including my unique address. If they add eircode to that, my risk of privacy invasion hasn't gone up or down. It's exactly the same.

The security risk comes from someone being able to hack that database or sloppy data protection practices from those companies.

dr.fuzzenstein

Part one, imagine, there's a phonebook!

Yes, I can see it now, like can you imagine if there was a database that anyone can access and find out my phone numbers?
How is this travesty allowed? This is a flagrant breach of my data protection and I demand this being changed immediately! Not only is this online, but can be accessed by ANYONE! The CIA and ISIS are having a field day, expect suicide bombers and drone strikes any SECOND!:

http://www.eircomphonebook.ie/

Also, aside from my first demand of completely re-organising phone numbers according to MY wishes and the phone directory be made inaccessible, I also want people to dial a number I want, not the number Eircom assigns me, I disagree with that number and will be going to court about it.
Can you imagine? A unique number attached to every house that can be easily be looked by any Tom, Dick and Harry?
What's next? This number being attached to a mobile device I carry around with me?

Part two, you think Eircode is bad?:

Imagine the security implications of that if you will:
A smart phone (or rather Google and the NSA) and any kind of computer (PC, laptop, smart TV) knows where you are, what numbers you dial, who you talk to, what you buy online, can activate it's microphone and camera without you knowing it (smart TV's with camera and mic can record audio and video of the room it's in without you knowing or consenting), what websites you visit, what TV you watch, what games you play, what you post online, where you booked your holidays and other trips, well put it this way, your phone, telly, pc and tablet know so much about you (including your exact location at ANY time), to worry about Eircodes is like a worm worrying about a blade of grass and not noticing the lawnmower.
It shows that the people complaining haven't got the faintest idea about how much of our lives are already recorded,noted , archived and available for scrutiny to any national security outfit you care to mention.
With that some can know your name, bank and credit card details, where you are, where you're going, etc...
You think that https: is going to save you? The NSA has all the keys, or can request them. Nothing is secure. If you don't understand that statement, Agent Smith already knows you better than you know yourself.
The idea of privacy and security is an idiot's dream. You think this is tin foil hat?:

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2013/09/05/219367716/reports-nsa-has-keys-to-most-internet-encryption

Your electronic devices are about as private as putting everything you do or say online on a billboard in 50 foot neon lettering.


TL/DR:

Your phone knows more about you than your wife. If you worry about Eircode, you simply haven't a clue. The link above should worry you far more than some postcode.

plodder

recedite wrote: »

Its not a catastrophe. Its just a lessening of peoples privacy and data protection.
And yes, the same will happen gradually in other countries, as more and more info is gathered and made available on the internet. Before eircode we were less vulnerable than those other countries with unique addressing systems, that's all. After eircode, we will be more vulnerable than most, because of the availability of this digitised national database.

The database is one part of it, but that is a fairly well understood aspect of data protection. Once the people who have access to the database understand that it contains personal information, then they can take appropriate steps to protect it. The more interesting question however, is what will happen to Eircodes once they get out into the wild. Eg when you buy stuff online and include your postcode in your address. The person you have given your postcode to, has no relationship with Eircode and in many cases won't be bound by Irish data protection law. They won't necessarily know that Eircodes are personal information (no other postcode is). Nobody knows where this kind of information will end up or whether it will be protected at all.

MBSnr

http://www.ftai.ie/news-item/New_news-00003/

Oh and this from the 13th of May. Not sure if it was posted here about the attempt to stop Eircode in Europe by FTAI in Apr this year... Perhaps judging by the above they failed...
http://postaltechnologyinternational.com/articles.php?ArticleID=1215

MBSnr

MBSnr wrote: »

http://www.ftai.ie/news-item/New_news-00003/

Oh and this from the 13th of May. Not sure if it was posted here about the attempt to stop Eircode in Europe by FTAI in Apr this year... Perhaps judging by the above they failed...
http://postaltechnologyinternational.com/articles.php?ArticleID=1215

Looks like a request to create an "open streetmap" for postcodes.

"The introduction of Eircode is imminent, and whilst members of FTA Ireland have said that they won't be using the system as it stands, we are attempting to make part of it work for small businesses. You could say we are trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear – but we would like to see small business get something out of it, and are appealing to IT and Geo communities to help make sense of the system, and support SME's in the process."
FTA Ireland has emphasised that in order to conform with Eircode licensing agreements, no one who helps FTAI will be paid for this work, nor will FTA Ireland charge anyone for access to the resulting polygons, which it will provide free of charge on its website. This will be a pro-bono piece of work, carried out on behalf of, and available to, small businesses in Ireland.

TheBustedFlush

Their concern for small businesses is very touching.

They would like to see small businesses get something out of it by the FTAI undermining the revenue stream for Eircode, and FTAI get themselves a free map of the routing keys which their members won't ever use of course, and they won't pay the patsy company who do the work.

No prizes for guessing who came up with that idea.

ukoda

It's an absolute lie that FTAI members will never use it. It's only a question of how long they can hold out before common sense over rules their pride and they'll start using it.

Give it 6 months when the likes of UPS and FedEx start seeing it on their parcels and know there's a geo code behind it that can be extremely useful to them if they made a bit of an investment. Combine that with complaints from anyone who gets a call for directions from one of their drivers after they've put their eircode on the parcel.

TheBustedFlush

ukoda wrote: »

It's an absolute lie that FTAI members will never use it. It's only a question of how long they can hold out before common sense over rules their pride and they'll start using it.

Give it 6 months when the likes of UPS and FedEx start seeing it on their parcels and know there's a geo code behind it that can be extremely useful to them if they made a bit of an investment. Combine that with complaints from anyone who gets a call for directions from one of their drivers after they've put their eircode on the parcel.

This raises a question about who exactly is being represented by the various organisations commenting on the new postcode - on both sides of the debate.

The government says it consulted with various stakeholders, the opposers say they didn't and that they represent the true voice of various sectors/potential users of the code.

But who exactly does the FTAI represent as in who are its members? Its website says that BOC Gases, DHL and Fedex are among its founding members. But parcel delivery companies such as An Post, Nightline, Fastway and DPD don't appear to be members and they do a lot of deliveries to households every day presumably.

And what is the view of rival representative haulage organisations on the code e.g. Irish Road Hauliers Assoc, etc.?

And who do IFESA represent? One article I read says that it represents 380 of 700 Dublin firefighters. Are they representative of the national view of all emergency services - fire, ambulance and police - or are they a niche union looking for issues to make a name for themselves? SIPTU and IMPACT appear to be other unions involved - what is their view?

The National Ambulance Service seem to have given supportive quotes from time to time, but others dismiss these as not being representative.

The Gardai have said nothing - maybe they're not allowed to?

The HSE are adopting it as a public organisation within health services.

Who knows what companies involved in mapping/navigation actually think as none of them appear to have commented one way or the other - are they not bothered, or working out commercial agreements to use it?

Online retailers such as Littlewoods have said they will use it - which means their delivery companies will also presumably be expected to use it? DPD have said they'll use it, even if it's not what they wanted.

If it is used by UK and other online retailers, and people are asked for their postcode, will this be then ignored by some delivery companies when the parcels arrive in Ireland?

It's expected that financial and insurance companies will want to use it, but have any of them actually said that they will? Do they need to or do they just get on with it?

What about taxis, couriers, home delivery services? Do they just wait to see if their satnavs get updated with them? And if they don't, just ignore it?

recedite

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

undermining the revenue stream for Eircode..

ukoda wrote: »

.. there's a geo code behind it that can be extremely useful to them if they made a bit of an investment...

You eircode representative guys are a bit delusional if you think this eircode database is going to be a goldmine.
Firstly I don't see any legal difficulty with somebody independently providing an app that mapped the routing keys as polygons. It would be the same as making a map of the current Dublin postcodes. Public knowledge is not the proprietary property of eircode.
Secondly, although the contents of the database will be less "public knowledge" and more "proprietary", once that gets out into the wild it may well appear in numerous free versions (but perhaps less up to date than the official version).

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

You eircode representative guys are a bit delusional if you think this eircode database is going to be a goldmine.
Firstly I don't see any legal difficulty with somebody independently providing an app that mapped the routing keys as polygons. It would be the same as making a map of the current Dublin postcodes. Public knowledge is not the proprietary property of eircode.
Secondly, although the contents of the database will be less "public knowledge" and more "proprietary", once that gets out into the wild it may well appear in numerous free versions (but perhaps less up to date than the official version).

Sur it'll be on google maps for free. No doubt about that.

But the reality is that if you want to use it commercially en mass and for route planning, then you need a copy of the ECAD

dr.fuzzenstein

Interesting link, this:

http://postaltechnologyinternational.com/articles.php?ArticleID=1215

Neil McDonnell is general manager of the Freight Transport Association of Ireland (FTAI), an organization made up of some 200 freight and logistics firms.
Eighteen months ago, as Eircode was chosen by ministers, he declared that the scheme would result in “significant savings in time and money, to the benefit of businesses and customers alike”.
A year later and backed by several multi-national delivery firms, including DHL and FedEx, he performed a startling about-face, lobbying a key government committee to stop the project in its tracks. Their principal grievance was that Eircode might limit competition in the growing parcel delivery market and favor Ireland’s national postal provider, An Post.

If I translate that from PR bullsh*t into English, i would say this:

Neil McDonnell: We were promised a nice, fat, juicy backroom deal by the previous government, because times where good and brown envelopes were aplenty. This is Ireland, nobody does anything for free or even the good of their health, you'd have to pay me to take a sh*t.
Then this shower came along and told us them days are over, so naturally we will throw our toys out of the pram and stomp our feet, because we don't actually care if our work is much easier. This is something new and we'll be damned if there isn't a nice, fat profit in it for us. Times are good again and everyone else is creaming it and we are determined to get our piece of the action!

(Satire alert)

My position is that nobody does anything for free ever in Ireland, even charities as we have seen. (Care Bear anyone?)
If a guy was using a hammer and you'd offer him an electric tool instead, he'd demand to be paid extra for it, otherwise he'll go on strike.
That and the fact that as soon as there's more than one Irish person in a room all chances of agreement go out the window.

TheBustedFlush

recedite wrote: »

You eircode representative guys are a bit delusional if you think this eircode database is going to be a goldmine.
Firstly I don't see any legal difficulty with somebody independently providing an app that mapped the routing keys as polygons. It would be the same as making a map of the current Dublin postcodes. Public knowledge is not the proprietary property of eircode.
Secondly, although the contents of the database will be less "public knowledge" and more "proprietary", once that gets out into the wild it may well appear in numerous free versions (but perhaps less up to date than the official version).

Standard response from the Loc8 representatives - paint everyone else as being eircode supporters/representatives. It's quite a binary approach - you don't work in IT by any chance?

The point being made is that FTAI are no more concerned about small businesses than you are. They're looking out for their own small interests. And effectively what they're saying is - 'let's create a map of the postal areas, get around the rules of licensing - get someone else to do it for free, and then make it free - then we can use it and give two fingers to the Govt/Capita. We'll say it's for the benefit of small businesses to make ourselves look good.'

Undoubtedly eircode is a clumsy design that will not do some of the things that could be achieved from a modern postcode. But the fake posturing, hand-wringing, and contemptuous dismissal of other points of view by some of the vested interests opposed to its introduction is a bit hard to take.

a65b2cd

MBSnr wrote: »

http://www.ftai.ie/news-item/New_news-00003/

Mr Mc Donnell continued:

"However, the first part of the proposed postcode, which is structured to reflect An Post's operations, would increase the granularity of Ireland from 24 Dublin postcodes and 26 counties, up to 139 postal districts without operators needing to unnecessarily license the Eircode database."

... 24 Dublin postcodes ... I only know of 22. Maybe FTAI are using Dublin 19, Dublin 21, and Dublin 23 for non-deliveries!

Trouwe Ier

Does anyone have a definitive list of postal districts outside of Dublin?

I think that there are four in Cork City and I think Limerick has Limerick, Kilmallock and Newcastle West.

larchill

Trouwe Ier wrote: »

Does anyone have a definitive list of postal districts outside of Dublin?

I think that there are four in Cork City and I think Limerick has Limerick, Kilmallock and Newcastle West.

For Louth, its probably Drogheda, Dundalk, & Ardee

Sam Russell

Will post codes be listed in the telephone book?

TheBustedFlush

Sam Russell wrote: »

Will post codes be listed in the telephone book?

Unlikely. That would just add costs to a directory that is reducing in size and usefulness.

Online providers may decide to include them if they're willing to pay, but since you'll be able to look addresses up online via the eircode site, there's not much point.

Sam Russell

Well, if they drop the address and just put the post code, it is much shorter.

John Ryan D03 AB5X 01 299 9999

Rather than

John Ryan, Posh House, 14, Notsoposh Road, Clontarf, Dublin 3 01 299 9999

All listings will be the same length, and could allow more columns, saving paper.

moyners

They're listed in the UK phone book. I suppose it would be up to Eircom to decide if it's necessary. They might decide it's more trouble than it's worth given how some people are uber-sensitive about their data. Phone books for residential numbers have a limited future anyway IMO - more and more people want to be ex-directory and less and less people feel the need for a landline, or like us, have one just because it comes with the broadband and rarely use it.

SpaceTime

Hardly anything is listed in the phonebook anymore !

I'm pretty sure eircom sold it all off to golden pages parent quite some time ago. There are many other phone operators these days.

Landlines are very much in their twilight years. I'd be surprised if the traditional POTS network doesn't just disappear. It's already really only there as a carrier for broadband services in most households. Eircom deployed VoIP capable routers in every efibre installation as did all of their competitors.

trellheim

Quote:
Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
Correct because postcodes are not needed in the slightest in this country
Translation: "I personally don't have a need for them."

Not true; the 100+ Irish businesses I've consulted for expressed no need for them either as it would mean a change to IT systems and process for no perceived return.

ukoda

trellheim wrote: »

Not true; the 100+ Irish businesses I've consulted for expressed no need for them either as it would mean a change to IT systems and process for no perceived return.

I'm sure there are 100's of businesses that may not have a huge need for postcodes. That does NOT translate to "postcodes aren't needed in this country"

dr.fuzzenstein

trellheim wrote: »

Not true; the 100+ Irish businesses I've consulted for expressed no need for them either as it would mean a change to IT systems and process for no perceived return.

Oh really? I REALLY? Are you sure?
I can see you live at something like
Trellheim
Somethingstreet 26
Inisfeckin
Co Somewhere
that every idiot can find.
I live at

Dr.Fuzz
Inch
Town vaguely near me
Co Clare

Me: "Inch"
Delivery guy "I am in Inch"
Me "Do you see a big tree and a hill in the distance and there should be a dead badger beside the road"
Del "No, there's a country lane, a few houses and some fields, how are you so sure there's a dead badger?"
Me "I didn't pick it up, would you? So it should still be there. Anyway what you described could be anywhere in Ireland"
Del "Well the last town I passed was Ballybog"
Me "Ballybog? Jesus, you're fecking miles out! You're heading towards the wrong Inch!"
Del "How was I supposed to know that, just says Dr.Fuzz, Inch, Co. Somewhere!"
Me "Yes, but there's two inches, you're an Irish delivery guy, you're supposed to magically know which Inch I live near"
Del "Look here, buddy, how am I supposed to know off by heart where every single person in this country lives, even the ones with identical names, I have a sat nav, but it might as well be a crystal ball with these addresses"
Me "Well, when will you get there?"
Del "Sorry, can't make it, I have to go and deliver a packet to Mrs Miggins in Ballyboghole, either you drive halfway across the county and meet me, I'll drop it in next week, or you can pick it up at the depot before 5 or maybe I leave it in a shop 20 miles from where you live"
Me "What? I can't do that! I need those bits, they're for my car, I can't go anywhere!"
Del "Well sorry buddy, but how can I deliver stuff with this stupid address system, I wish there was some kind of postcode"

I had this conversation so many times, it's not funny anymore. Many an item I have ordered that has been lost to the ages, never to be seen again.
I have to have stuff delivered to work, because it has something like an address, or as close as you can get.
Anyone who suggests our medieval address system is fine and dandy is obviously a biscuits short of a full tin.

Oh if only there was some kind of, you know, system that, I don't know, would easily identify my location, so, and here's a mad idea, PEOPLE COULD ACTUALLY FIND ME!!!
I know this is a strange idea for some people who may have consumed too many of a certain mushroom, but it is kind of needed. Unless you have the king of the fairies to look after your post...

Bayberry

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Van driver: "I have a sat nav,"

I had this conversation so many times, it's not funny anymore.

If you've had this conversation more than twice, and you don't know your LOC8 code, or even your raw coordinates, it's because you enjoy wallowing in misery.

ukoda

Bayberry wrote: »

If you've had this conversation more than twice, and you don't know your LOC8 code, or even your raw coordinates, it's because you enjoy wallowing in misery.

Well we've had reports on here of people putting loc8 codes on their packages and the driver not have a clue what it is or what to do with it.

Avada

Bayberry wrote: »

If you've had this conversation more than twice, and you don't know your LOC8 code, or even your raw coordinates, it's because you enjoy wallowing in misery.

Isn't it only garmin that use that? Because it sure as hell won't bring anything up if you type it into google or apple maps.

ukoda

Random_Name wrote: »

Isn't it only garmin that use that? Because it sure as hell won't bring anything up if you type it into google or apple maps.

Yeah and you've to get it added on, it's not widely used at all. Despite what people might claim