National Postcodes to be introduced

Bayberry

recedite wrote: »

As someone mentioned earlier, its a chicken and egg situation.
This is where a state sanctioned system, even one as bad as eircode, has a major advantage. Because in future the default assumption will be that all households should have an eircode

Every point on the planet has a set of geo-coordinates - they don't have to be assigned to anyone, they just ARE. The only advantage that eircode has over Loc8 or any other encoding of geo-coordinates is that the government is going to spend millions advertising it.

eircode doesn't use geo-coordinates. You can't translate an eircode directly to coordinates, you have to (pay to) access the eircode database to see what has been recorded as the coordinates of an eircode (a process that will always be 100% accurate.....). Of course that means that lots of places won't have an eircode. So you can't use an eircode to meet your friends at that car-park in the Wicklow mountains so that you can go hiking, and you can't use an eircode to have a truck load of gravel delivered to that field at the back of the hill, and you can't use an eircode to call a tow-ruck for you car that broke down.

Apparently, though, it'll save insurance companies millions, because they're not smart enough to flag duplicate applications from within 20metre of the same point, unless the government spends €25million to build a database for them.

a65b2cd

ukoda wrote: »

complaints from anyone who gets a call for directions from one of their drivers after they've put their eircode on the parcel.

This is the game-changer after Eircodes are introduced and it would apply also if LOC8 codes had become the national postcode. The decision was whether a postcode facilitating a database solution was required, that decision has been made and Eircodes will gradually result in more standardised addresses.

oscarBravo

Bayberry wrote: »

Absolutely not - I have said clearly that the fact that delivery drivers can't be arsed using any sort of geo-cordinate system (whether Loc8 or raw coordinates) suggests that they don't really see the current sitation as that big a deal.

Yes. You've said that clearly. I explained clearly why you're wrong.

Make up your mind - either we don't need a code, because most people know how to give directions, or we do need a code, but nobody can be arsed using one, because they know how to give directions.

False dichotomy is false. If you like, I'll explain it to you again.

This bizarre "Omerta" thing that some people seem to have about Loc8 codes (They didn't ask me about Loc8, so I didn't tell them) is bizarre, especially from people who insist that eircodes are the best thing since sliced bread.

I'll spell this out for you slowly. Try reading it slowly, until it sinks in.

There's a difference between a code that everyone in the country will be notified of, and one that they're going to have to jump through hoops to figure out for themselves.

Now, I know: you believe that the one that nobody has ever heard of, and that they will need to download an app, or visit a website, or whatever, to obtain, and which they might get wrong (I've mentioned before that a large percentage of people can't read a map to save their lives) is inherently superior in every way to the one that every single household in the country will be informed of, and for which there will be a major national promotional campaign to raise awareness.

Each to their own.

The people who'd rather spend 20 minutes on the phone giving directions are going to keep doing that - and the delivery drivers who couldn't be take 30 seconds to ask you if you can download the loc8 app, aren't going to be any better!

Or they're both going to use the actual, officially sanctioned, well-known location code so that they don't have to either give/receive directions or faff around with apps and websites.

Clearly, that's the worst possible outcome. For some reason.

recedite

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Since you obviously didn't read it, here it is again: :rolleyes:......

As your memory seems to have become a bit fuzzy, here it is again:

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

..Del "Look here, buddy, how am I supposed to know off by heart where every single person in this country lives, even the ones with identical names, I have a sat nav...

dr.fuzzenstein

recedite wrote: »

As your memory seems to have become a bit fuzzy, here it is again:

Let me reiterate

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Had I ever heard anything about it, or had anyone in Ireland ever mentioned it in the 20 years that I am here, or the delivery company ever asked for it, or had there ever been the tiniest mention of it any-fcuking-where online, in the papers, online or on TV I might have conceivably used any system you care to mention.
That's how well fcuking publicized all the other systems are, no fcuker has ever fcuking heard about them.
A system that no one knows about, no one uses and that is referenced exactly nowhere by nobody ever is about as useful as the pope's balls or tits on a fish.
Anyway, it's coming in and if that annoys some people, good.

oscarBravo

I have a sat nav...

Problem solved! Suppose my address is "Slogger, Westport, Co Mayo" - does that get you to my house without a phone call?

Maybe I'll give you GPS co-ordinates instead. If I gave you the location (53.81, -9.47), would that be close enough? Oops, no, that's on a completely different road. I would need to go to three decimal places, for a total of nine digits, in order to even get on the correct road.

Something that always amazes me about people who foam at the mouth about how terrible eircode is: their willingness to suggest utterly unworkable alternatives as if they were vastly superior.

Bayberry

dashcamdanny wrote: »

I work for one of these delivery companies. We all use consumer sat navs and have smart phone with GPS.
Hard to reach clients are first found and their coordinates saved on a profile kept for each person.

Do you call these customers and spend 15 minutes asking for directions? Is there some obvious reason that I'm missing that you don't ask them if they have a smart phone, and for the X% that do, would they mind downloading the Loc8 app, and asking them to read out the result? You could even just have a page on your own website that would recognize a mobile browser and trigger the "get location" APIs and popup your own code, if you don't want to mention Loc8.

I know that not everyone has a smartphone, but I'm having a hard time getting my head around the reluctance that delivery companies seem to have about using the technology that some of their customersdo have to help them get deliveries right.

my3cents

Bayberry wrote: »

Do you call these customers and spend 15 minutes asking for directions? Is there some obvious reason that I'm missing that you don't ask them if they have a smart phone, and for the X% that do, would they mind downloading the Loc8 app, and asking them to read out the result? You could even just have a page on your own website that would recognize a mobile browser and trigger the "get location" APIs and popup your own code, if you don't want to mention Loc8.

I know that not everyone has a smartphone, but I'm having a hard time getting my head around the reluctance that delivery companies seem to have about using the technology that some of their customersdo have to help them get deliveries right.

Delivery companies really don't care because its someone elses problem, the drivers.

Bayberry

oscarBravo wrote: »

There's a difference between a code that everyone in the country will be notified of, and one that they're going to have to jump through hoops to figure out for themselves.

Your willingness to believe that people will remember that weird number that they got in the post 6 months ago and promptly discarded is touching.

Though I suppose they can dig out their last water bill and see if it's been added to their address.

Bayberry

oscarBravo wrote: »

Maybe I'll give you GPS co-ordinates instead. If I gave you the location (53.81, -9.47), would that be close enough? Oops, no, that's on a completely different road. I would need to go to three decimal places, for a total of nine digits, in order to even get on the correct road.

Wow. Nine whole Digits? That's nearly as many as a phone number!!!!!

dr.fuzzenstein

So what you work at that you know so much more about it than anyone else I'm the entire country? It is obviously a travesty you weren't consulted in the process, since you're so qualified.

Bayberry

I'm genuinely confused here. Do other people use smartphones in a different way than I do? I installed apps like the Bus Nearby app because someone else mentioned it to me, and it made my life easier. I installed Duolingo because a friend mentioned it to me, and it made it easy to see if I could brush up on my Irish. I installed TuneinRadio because I was trying to listen to a particular station, and a search on the internet suggested that it would be a good way to solve my problem. I've recommended these and other apps to people when I notice that they might help them out.

None of these apps were pre-installed when I got the phone, and none of them were heavily advertised, and they all fall within the spectrum of popularity, from very popular to local, niche apps.

So I'm not trying to stir thing here when I say that I genuinely can't understand why people who seem to have a really big problem with deliveries aren't trying to help themselves and others by evangelizing a fairly simple tool that will help at least some of the time. I'm genuinely not trying to criticize anyone here, I just have difficulty comprehending the reluctance of people to do this. If people said "I tried it a few times, and it didn't work" it'd be one thing, but "I didn't bother suggesting Loc8 because they'd probably never heard of it" seems to be so "non-internet" for want of a better description, and is just weird to me.

Bayberry

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

So what you work at that you know so much more about it than anyone else I'm the entire country? It is obviously a travesty you weren't consulted in the process, since you're so qualified.

Was that barb supposed to be aimed at me? I just searched this thread, and the first reference to Loc8 codes just in this thread was post #143 on 13-07-2010 - almost 5 years ago! (That's 3 months before Instagram was launched, according to Wikipedia, just to give some context). So it's hardly as if Loc8 codes were some dark secret.

hognef

[Deleted User] wrote: »

no the reverse lookup of the phone number, giving out your address, with or without a postcode is one thing, you're expecting someone to need to know where you are. Reverse looking up a phone number is different as you are not inviting the called party to know where you live.

Of course this will never be a runner in paranoid Ireland, but it works perfectly fine in Norway, for example (Norwegian language, but should be obvious enough anyway):

http://www.gulesider.no/person/resultat/46258955

Norway also has vehicle lookup (including owner details) by registration number (English):

http://www.vegvesen.no/en/Vehicles/Facts+and+statistics/Vehicle+Information

Clearly no major privacy concerns there, so why is it so different here?

Bayberry

hognef wrote: »

Norway also has vehicle lookup (including owner details) by registration number.
Clearly no major privacy concerns there, so why is it so different here?

Like cartell.ie, you mean?

hognef

Bayberry wrote: »

Like cartell.ie, you mean?

I didn't think Cartell would supply the owner's name and address (and certainly not for less than 40 cent). My mistake if it in fact does.

plodder

hognef wrote: »

I didn't think Cartell would supply the owner's name and address (and certainly not for less than 40 cent). My mistake if it in fact does.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

oscarBravo

Bayberry wrote: »

Your willingness to believe that people will remember that weird number that they got in the post 6 months ago and promptly discarded is touching.

You're absolutely right. I forgot that nobody anywhere on the planet has ever remembered their postcode.

Bayberry wrote: »

Wow. Nine whole Digits? That's nearly as many as a phone number!!!!!

The phone number they tell people on a daily basis because people actually use phone numbers?

Bayberry wrote: »

I just searched this thread, and the first reference to Loc8 codes just in this thread was post #143 on 13-07-2010 - almost 5 years ago! (That's 3 months before Instagram was launched, according to Wikipedia, just to give some context). So it's hardly as if Loc8 codes were some dark secret.

Five years? Wow. They must be really, really popular by now.

recedite

hognef wrote: »

Norway also has vehicle lookup (including owner details) by registration number (English):

http://www.vegvesen.no/en/Vehicles/Facts+and+statistics/Vehicle+Information

Clearly no major privacy concerns there, so why is it so different here?

I don't know much about the Norwegian psyche, but if it was available here it might lead to groups of vigilantes calling round to peoples houses after a road rage incident.
One time while I was at home, I spotted a face peering in at me through the back window. Went round to the door and saw the car reg as he drove away. So I contacted the Gardai, gave them the reg, and asked who it was, but they refused to give me the name, or any details. However they did say it was a known petty burglar and thief, and they would have a word with him themselves.

MBSnr

So to surmise

1. Eircode is not ideal but will be the standard postcode, sent to every house (letterbox) in the country. If prompted for a postcode on line, you can enter one - the Eircode one.

2. Loc8 while better in some respects, is not widely known or used by either regular people or the delivery companies in general, despite being available over 5 yrs. I've never been explicitly asked for my Loc8 code in any on line transaction or via any work supplier based transaction in Ireland. You could argue that it would be if it was chosen as the postcode solution - but it wasn't.

3. Accurate GPS co-ords have been available since May 2000. Same applies as #2 above. People don't use them for postal deliveries and I've never been asked on line or by delivery companies for it. GPS actually seems the most prone to human error anyhow. The number of digits means mistakes can be made and I've seen many GPS co-ords given out using the wrong datum - which makes them useless for pin point accuracy.

4. Re-addressing the entire rural communities with a road name and number.... In my mind not practical, at a national or council level, budgets, local parties involvement, lobbying TDs over boreen names... Complete nightmare if local communities were tasked to do this.

There was a poster earlier in the thread who said he wouldn't use Eircode in his Sat Nav (I infer from that to mean even if it supported it) as he had another solution (Loc8). Interesting take on it. I'd imagine he'll have to get the Eircode, use a PC to find the location, go to Loc8 website and get the matching Loc8 code, then enter this into the Sat Nav all before he left the house. Not sure what he'd do if out and about and given an Eircode. I'm not sure I believe he won't use it.

So here's a genuine question.
[To those who oppose the way this Eircode has been implemented (for whatever reason - Gov implementation, issues with tendering/bidding, routing, randomness, GPS, closed source, FTIA, emergency services, expense or just generally saying it is not fit for purpose - which I don't completely disagree with).]

Will you use it (move on and accept it is what it is), reluctantly use it, or not bother at all?

my3cents

MBSnr wrote: »

.....

4. Re-addressing the entire rural communities with a road name and number.... In my mind not practical, at a national or council level, budgets, local parties involvement, lobbying TDs over boreen names... Complete nightmare if local communities were tasked to do this.

Apart from boreen's which would be private anyway afaik every road does have a number. At a country level its the L roads as in L1234. In Waterford at least there seems to be a sign on every minor road with an L number on it. No one uses them but they do exist. Note the L numbers are reused from county to county.

dr.fuzzenstein

Bayberry wrote: »

I'm genuinely confused here. Do other people use smartphones in a different way than I do? I installed apps like the Bus Nearby app because someone else mentioned it to me, and it made my life easier. I installed Duolingo because a friend mentioned it to me, and it made it easy to see if I could brush up on my Irish. I installed TuneinRadio because I was trying to listen to a particular station, and a search on the internet suggested that it would be a good way to solve my problem. I've recommended these and other apps to people when I notice that they might help them out.

None of these apps were pre-installed when I got the phone, and none of them were heavily advertised, and they all fall within the spectrum of popularity, from very popular to local, niche apps.

So I'm not trying to stir thing here when I say that I genuinely can't understand why people who seem to have a really big problem with deliveries aren't trying to help themselves and others by evangelizing a fairly simple tool that will help at least some of the time. I'm genuinely not trying to criticize anyone here, I just have difficulty comprehending the reluctance of people to do this. If people said "I tried it a few times, and it didn't work" it'd be one thing, but "I didn't bother suggesting Loc8 because they'd probably never heard of it" seems to be so "non-internet" for want of a better description, and is just weird to me.

My phone has been upgraded from stock OS to custom ROM by CyanogenMod running Jellybean (it refuses Kitkat, too old I guess), it is rooted (well, it would have to be ) and I fitted a larger memory card (only 32 gig, but it works for me). It is my sat nav (google pin would me my location service of choice), camera, mp3 player, fault diagnostic tool for the car, use it for banking, Skype, remote for the telly, networking analysis tool, wifi hotspot if the internet goes down and so on, in short a million things. And it works as a phone from time to time.
As said above, I can find my way around by google maps, if I leave my car somewhere I drop a pin, in other words yes, I do know my way around my phone a bit. Has any courier ever asked me about a location code of any description? No. Have I heard anything about loc8 before coming on this thread? No, sorry, passed me by completely. Did anyone in my area ever mention it to me? Never. Whatever location codes are out there, there simply isn't the awareness to make them useful to the larger population. Even if you and I know about it, what about the millions of other people who are about as tech savvy as a common housebrick?
Yes, the barb was directed at you, I simply never heard of it and I would not say I had my head buried under a rock, whatever is out there, people are not aware and don't use it. I know it's the equivalent of walking 10 miles to work every day, unaware that there's a car in my garage, but there you have it. (shrugging shoulder emoticon)

MBSnr

my3cents wrote: »

Apart from boreen's which would be private anyway afaik every road does have a number. At a country level its the L roads as in L1234. In Waterford at least there seems to be a sign on every minor road with an L number on it. No one uses them but they do exist. Note the L numbers are reused from county to county.

True - I meant house number. The NZ scheme seems to be the best I've seen - fairly sure others have similar. If your house is 6.1 Km from the start of the road it's number 610 if on the right and 611 if on the left. But again they have roads which are not named as well.

The boreen near us was resurfaced by the council, so not all are private, even though I'd class it as a boreen.

The issues with that here in Ireland are the sheer number of these roads in existence in rural areas that do not have a Lxxxx number and defining the 'start' of each road that does have an Lxxxx number.

dashcamdanny

Bayberry wrote: »

Do you call these customers and spend 15 minutes asking for directions? Is there some obvious reason that I'm missing that you don't ask them if they have a smart phone, and for the X% that do, would they mind downloading the Loc8 app, and asking them to read out the result? You could even just have a page on your own website that would recognize a mobile browser and trigger the "get location" APIs and popup your own code, if you don't want to mention Loc8.

I know that not everyone has a smartphone, but I'm having a hard time getting my head around the reluctance that delivery companies seem to have about using the technology that some of their customersdo have to help them get deliveries right.

I have asked my company a few years ago to use Loc8, but the declined. The one thing you may not be aware of is the types of people who live in rural areas.
Many people do not have a clue how to work modern devices. Other than FB, and the phone book. Especially older folk.

On websites that sell stock of any kind, it has to be user friendly and easy to check out on. Sellers know, if they put speed bumps like trying to find coordinates or the like, the customer will get frustrated and shop somewhere else. This is a fact.

The way it is now. I get an address. Mrs Brown, Parklands, Co Wexford.

My satnav will find the townlands. I then have to find a landmark and call. Its a real pain and delivery schedules get badly affected. Even worse in the dark evenings.

Roll on Eircode.

plodder

my3cents wrote: »

Apart from boreen's which would be private anyway afaik every road does have a number. At a country level its the L roads as in L1234. In Waterford at least there seems to be a sign on every minor road with an L number on it. No one uses them but they do exist. Note the L numbers are reused from county to county.

I've seen the tiniest laneways with these L102121 type signs. If there's more than one house entrance on it, they seem to get a sign. For another thread maybe, but what is the point of them? I have a problem with the proliferation of pointless road-signs in this country.

Alun

dashcamdanny wrote: »

My satnav will find the townlands. I then have to find a landmark and call. Its a real pain and delivery schedules get badly affected. Even worse in the dark evenings.

Roll on Eircode.

I'm currently trying to order some alloy wheels online from Germany and getting them delivered directly to my garage for fitting.

The address is

<Village> Garage Ltd.
<Village>
Co. Wicklow

That's it, no street name, no number, nothing. It's an official dealer for two big name car companies with a petrol station as well, not just a shed. However hard I try to squeeze the address into the standard format required by the online form, it always ends up getting mangled. At least if I had a postcode I could put that in and at least if the rest of the address was a mess, there would be some chance of it finding it's destination.

dr.fuzzenstein

MBSnr wrote: »

So to surmise

1. Eircode is not ideal but will be the standard postcode, sent to every house (letterbox) in the country. If prompted for a postcode on line, you can enter one - the Eircode one.

2. Loc8 while better in some respects, is not widely known or used by either regular people or the delivery companies in general, despite being available over 5 yrs. I've never been explicitly asked for my Loc8 code in any on line transaction or via any work supplier based transaction in Ireland. You could argue that it would be if it was chosen as the postcode solution - but it wasn't.

3. Accurate GPS co-ords have been available since May 2000. Same applies as #2 above. People don't use them for postal deliveries and I've never been asked on line or by delivery companies for it. GPS actually seems the most prone to human error anyhow. The number of digits means mistakes can be made and I've seen many GPS co-ords given out using the wrong datum - which makes them useless for pin point accuracy.

4. Re-addressing the entire rural communities with a road name and number.... In my mind not practical, at a national or council level, budgets, local parties involvement, lobbying TDs over boreen names... Complete nightmare if local communities were tasked to do this.

There was a poster earlier in the thread who said he wouldn't use Eircode in his Sat Nav (I infer from that to mean even if it supported it) as he had another solution (Loc8). Interesting take on it. I'd imagine he'll have to get the Eircode, use a PC to find the location, go to Loc8 website and get the matching Loc8 code, then enter this into the Sat Nav all before he left the house. Not sure what he'd do if out and about and given an Eircode. I'm not sure I believe he won't use it.

So here's a genuine question.
[To those who oppose the way this Eircode has been implemented (for whatever reason - Gov implementation, issues with tendering/bidding, routing, randomness, GPS, closed source, FTIA, emergency services, expense or just generally saying it is not fit for purpose - which I don't completely disagree with).]

Will you use it (move on and accept it is what it is), reluctantly use it, or not bother at all?

Post of the thread IMO, this makes so much sense, I had to repost it, because well thought out, sensible and intelligent posts like that tend to get lost in the Rabble Rabble. Can't believe no one thanked this, I'd thank it 10 times if I could. You can take several hundred pages of this thread, discard them and replace them with this post, it really boils the issue down to it's bare essence.

MBSnr

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Post of the thread IMO, this makes so much sense, I had to repost it, because well thought out, sensible and intelligent posts like that tend to get lost in the Rabble Rabble. Can't believe no one thanked this, I'd thank it 10 times if I could. You can take several hundred pages of this thread, discard them and replace them with this post, it really boils the issue down to it's bare essence.

Ha! Thanks... Shucks... I'd like to thank my.....

Bayberry

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Yes, the barb was directed at you, I simply never heard of it and I would not say I had my head buried under a rock, whatever is out there, people are not aware and don't use it. I know it's the equivalent of walking 10 miles to work every day, unaware that there's a car in my garage, but there you have it. (shrugging shoulder emoticon)

The thing I'm trying to get at, though, is that you seem to be refusing to try Loc8 out now that you do know about it. When you get one of those calls asking for directions, you don't start the conversation by asking "Do you have a Garmin? Try this code". You don't ask "If I give you my Loc8 code, do you know how to use it?". If they can, great, you just saved yourself 10 minutes, if they can't, you've only used 15 seconds. Depending on how rushed things are when the guy arrives, you could take a minute to show him how to use Loc8.

Loc8 is a pretty niche application - in any given week the number of people frustrated by delayed deliveries numbers hundreds in the whole country. So it's not that surprising that it doesn't come up in the pub that often, or get discussed while people are waiting outside the school to pick up the kids. Nobody calls Joe to complain about "this sort of thing in this day and age". So it's never going to spread like wildfire. I'm just surprised at the not just reluctance, but the active refusal of people to spread the word about Loc8, even when they have described real situations in their life that would be improved by the use of Loc8.

Note that I live and work in the suburbs of Dublin, so I have a unique address (except in Irish - on the very, very, very rare occasion that someone uses the Irish version of my street address, it turns out that there's another street that uses the same word in Irish!). And I switched to a Windows phone a while back, and Loc8 doesn't have a Windows app, so I would have to use the website (which isn't optimized for use on a mobile) to navigate to a Loc8 destination. But given that nobody has claimed that Loc8 codes don't work, just that people refuse to use them, I'm also a bit surprised at peoples optimism about the use of eircodes.

MBSnr

Bayberry wrote: »

.
.
But given that nobody has claimed that Loc8 codes don't work, just that people refuse to use them, I'm also a bit surprised at peoples optimism about the use of eircodes.

The point that I think you are missing is that each house will be informed of their Eircode. Had Loc8 individually sent each postal address their own Loc8 code then, perhaps, it would be more widely known, commonly referenced and in general use - more so than it is at present anyhow.