National Postcodes to be introduced

Carawaystick

Bayberry wrote: »

No problem, sure they still have 5 weeks until the end of June!

Unless the person dealing with it is going on termtime at quitting time tomorrow

marmurr1916

plodder wrote: »

I think it took a little longer than that. But, it was helped by:
1) postcodes were actually needed for delivering mail

Not true. Royal Mail and other postal services will deliver mail without any postcode being used as part of the address. It'll take longer but they'll deliver as long as they have an address which they can figure out.

plodder wrote: »

2) they have a simple hierarchical structure that's easy to understand

Most people in the UK just learn their postcode off by heart. They don't know and don't care about the structure of UK postcodes.

plodder wrote: »

and remember (eg the first two/three characters relate to your region)

An eircode is easy to remember. The first few characters will be the same for everyone in the eircode regions. I'm pretty sure that everyone remembers the area code prefix for their landline phone number, even though those numbers (eg. 021, 051) aren't derived from or related to placenames.

The first two characters (letters) of my current UK postcode bear no relation to the county I'm in and they're not even related to the name of the nearest large town. Instead they're related to a large town which is the chief place for the postcode area I'm in although it's twice as far away from me as the closest large town!

There are large areas of Scotland where the first two letters in the postcode have no relation to the name of the nearest town, or where they have no relation to the name of the county/local authority. For example, huge areas of the Highlands of Scotland have IV (for Inverness) as the first two letters of their postcode even if they're 70-80 miles from Inverness. Likewise with the PH postcode area.

The KW (for Kirkwall) postcode area covers not just the Orkneys (of which Kirkwall is the largest town) but also a chunk of the north-easternmost corner of the Scottish mainland. People who live on the mainland frequently complain that they have to pay higher delivery charges because they share a KW postcode with the Orkney Islands despite the fact that most of the KW postcode area is on the mainland, with only 3 out of the 16 districts (KW15, KW16, KW17) covering the Orkney Islands.

All postcodes in Shetland start with the letters ZE for Zetland, supposedly a traditional name but not used by anyone who actually lives there for decades.

Many people in these Scottish postcode areas don't see any connection between the names of places where they live and the first two letters of their postcode.

This isn't just confined to Scotland.

For many years the postcodes on the Wirral peninsula (opposite Liverpool) shared the L postcode with Liverpool.

So many local residents complained for various reasons that they were removed from the Liverpool postcode area and placed into the CH (for Chester) postcode area.

Even now some people in the CH postcode area complain because it includes some areas within Wales, and some residents of the Welsh areas covered by the CH postcode don't want to have an 'English' postcode. Likewise with they SY postcode area that covers a large area of central Wales, since the SY postcode is derived from Shrewsbury, a town in England.

And then there's the North which has just one postcode area (BT) to cover the entire region.

Don't assume that everyone in the UK is happy with their postcode or that the first letter/letters in their postcode are always related to towns or locations that people within those postcode areas have a meaningful connection to.

plodder wrote: »

your neighbours all have the same code

No they don't. The street I currently live has several different postcodes depending on the house number you live in. Likewise with the last street I lived on. You could live on a street where you and your neighbour on your left share a full postcode but your neighbour on your right has a different postcode and the neighbours across the street have yet another postcode.

I'm not sure why having the same code as some of your neighbours is supposed to encourage greater use. I don't have the same phone number as my neighbours, although our landlines have the same area code.

plodder wrote: »

They probably even have a map on the wall showing the local postcode areas. So, they can easily tell what areas they deliver too. Won't be possible with Eircodes.

I've never been in/heard of a UK takeaway that relies on a postcode map to set its delivery area. It's usually a map showing streets etc within a given distance of the takeaway's premises.

And I'm pretty sure that SatNav databases are more useful to takeaway delivery drivers than maps these days.

plodder wrote: »

I think it will become part of normal life here too in a more limited way. The most enthusiastic people here are those who live in rural areas with non unique addresses or addresses that aren't suitable for navigation. They have most to gain. It's debatable what's in it for others, other than avoiding embarrassment when people/websites ask what their postcode is

Even in urban areas people will be asked for their eircodes frequently, especially for financial transactions, by utility companies etc. If you're asked for something often enough you'll get to know it, remember it and use it. The mere fact of being asked for it frequently will help to ensure a high take up.

Bayberry

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Even in urban areas people will be asked for their eircodes frequently, especially for financial transactions, by utility companies etc.

That's quite an assumption. I'm not sure about you, but when I call my bank or the ESB or UPC, it's my account number that they ask for, not my address. And if for some reason they do want to check my address for verification purposes, it would be far less error prone to ask me for my actual number and street than a 7 digit number.

It is a bit ironic that one of the key arguments made in favour of introducing eircodes instead of assigning numbers to houses and names to roads was that peoples addresses shouldn't change, but that 3 parties are expected to "push" eircodes by effecively doing away with street names and numbers altogether! (Joe will ove that one, I'm sure :-) )

MBSnr

Bayberry wrote: »

That's quite an assumption. I'm not sure about you, but when I call my bank or the ESB or UPC, it's my account number that they ask for, not my address. And if for some reason they do want to check my address for verification purposes, it would be far less error prone to ask me for my actual number and street than a 7 digit number.

I believe marmurr1916 may be voicing experiences from the UK. Certainly in my experience of living there, knowing your postcode was fundamental, even though nearly all houses are either named or numbered. I was often asked for my postcode for verification processes and your postcode was the 1st thing any company asked for, to identify your address quickly.

TheBustedFlush

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Not true. Royal Mail and other postal services will deliver mail without any postcode being used as part of the address. It'll take longer but they'll deliver as long as they have an address which they can figure out.

Eircode is easy to remember. The first few characters will be the same for everyone in the eircode regions. The first two characters (letters) of my current UK postcode bear no relation to the county I'm in and they're not even related to the name of the nearest large town. Instead they're related to a large town which is the chief place for the postcode area I'm in although it's twice as far away from me as the closest large town!

There are large areas of Scotland where the first two letters in the postcode have no relation to the name of the nearest town, or where they have no relation to the name of the county/local authority. For example, huge areas of the Highlands of Scotland have IV (for Inverness) as the first two letters of their postcode even if they're 70-80 miles from Inverness. Likewise with the PH postcode area. The KW (for Kirkwall) postcode area covers not just the Orkneys (of which Kirkwall is the largest town) but also a chunk of the north-easternmost corner of the Scottish mainland.

All postcodes in Shetland start with the letters ZE for Zetland, supposedly a traditional name but not used by anyone who actually lives there for decades.


No they don't. The street I currently live has several different postcodes depending on the house number you live in. Likewise with the last street I lived on.


I've never been in/heard of a UK takeaway that relies on a postcode map to set its delivery area. It's usually a map showing streets etc within a given distance of the takeaway's premises.

And I'm pretty sure that SatNav databases are more useful to takeaway delivery drivers than maps these days.

Even in urban areas people will be asked for their eircodes frequently, especially for financial transactions, by utility companies etc. If you're asked for something often enough you'll get to know it, remember it and use it. The mere fact of being asked for it frequently will help to ensure a high take up.

Didn't know any of that - that clarifies a few statements/beliefs about the UK system.

TheBustedFlush

MBSnr wrote: »

I believe marmurr1916 may be voicing experiences from the UK. Certainly in my experience of living there, knowing your postcode was fundamental, even though nearly all houses are either named or numbered. I was often asked for my postcode for verification processes and your postcode was the 1st thing any company asked for, to identify your address quickly.

Yep - and I reckon that's what will happen here over time. Retailers - online mainly - would like to make it mandatory for customers to provide as it will sort out a lot of issues for them around returns, poor addressing, fraudulent purchases, marketing, CRM stuff. Banks, insurance companies will make it part of the standard "and for security purposes, I need to ask you a few questions..." routine when you ring up - address/eircode, DOB, etc. The whole thing will probably take a few years to seep into everyday systems, and asking for it and giving it will be just normal part of life.

Bayberry

MBSnr wrote: »

I believe marmurr1916 may be voicing experiences from the UK. Certainly in my experience of living there, knowing your postcode was fundamental, even though nearly all houses are either named or numbered. I was often asked for my postcode for verification processes and your postcode was the 1st thing any company asked for, to identify your address quickly.

A UK Postcode doesn't identify a house - an eircode does. So a UK business can't get rid of street names and numbers, but if eircodes were as ubiquituous as UK postcodes, why would an Irish business bother with street names and numbers, it'd be an unnecessary duplication and cost, whereas we're told that eircodes are supposed to lower costs for businesses. That's just one of the reasons that the experience in the UK can't be assumed to be applicable in Ireland. It's a fundamentally different design, being introduced in a radically different technological environment.

Postcodes in the UK were introduced at a time when computers weren't part of everybodies workflow, so a quick lookup of a postcode in a printed directory was useful, and, as has been pointed out numerous times, the hierarchical nature of UK post codes facilitated this. We're told that this design isn't necessary nowadays, because everthing is computerised, so we have a non-hierarchical eircode, but we're supposed to believe that it will be used because it'll be easier, even though computerisation means it won't be easier.

A quick example was the so called "Local" Property Tax - the Revenue produced "guide" prices for different areas so that people would know what band they might expect their house to be in if it was a typical house for their area. UK style postcodes would have facilitated this, but eircodes are useless for this purpose.

The bottom line is that UK postcodes are widely used in environments where they solved pre-computer era problems. There was no need to phase out the use of post codes as the delpoyment of computers increased in the UK, but equally, there's no obvious gap in Irish customer service in the 21st century that the introduction of eircodes will fill. "But they do it in England so it must be a good idea" isn't a compelling business case for most Irish businesses.

TheBustedFlush

Bayberry wrote: »

A UK Postcode doesn't identify a house - an eircode does. So a UK business can't get rid of street names and numbers, but if eircodes were as ubiquituous as UK postcodes, why would an Irish business bother with street names and numbers, it'd be an unnecessary duplication and cost, whereas we're told that eircodes are supposed to lower costs for businesses. That's just one of the reasons that the experience in the UK can't be assumed to be applicable in Ireland. It's a fundamentally different design, being introduced in a radically different technological environment.

If you could send that on to the UK-obsessed FTAI, that would help to enlighten them.

Postcodes in the UK were introduced at a time when computers weren't part of everybodies workflow, so a quick lookup of a postcode in a printed directory was useful, and, as has been pointed out numerous times, the hierarchical nature of UK post codes facilitated this.....

...A quick example was the so called "Local" Property Tax - the Revenue produced "guide" prices for different areas so that people would know what band they might expect their house to be in if it was a typical house for their area. UK style postcodes would have facilitated this, but eircodes are useless for this purpose.

Exactly - this kind of indiscriminate grouping of properties for various purposes like house prices, credit profiling, insurance premiums, etc won't be facilitated.

The bottom line is that UK postcodes are widely used in environments where they solved pre-computer era problems.

Exactly. Thankfully, Ireland decided not to replicate it.

"But they do it in England so it must be a good idea" isn't a compelling business case for most Irish businesses.

Agreed - nor should it be.

Bayberry

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

Banks, insurance companies will make it part of the standard "and for security purposes, I need to ask you a few questions..." routine when you ring up - address/eircode, DOB, etc.

Any Bank that refuses to do business with someone because they can't remember their eircode is going to get more than a few complaints!

Banks and other businesses won't introduce that sort of friction into their customer relationships without a compelling reason. So you're back to the chicken and egg situation of expecting the commercial sector to drive widespread adoption of eircodes because you think the commercial sector has lots gain from the adoption of eircodes, even though nobody can point to any such benefits, except possibly the independent delivery sector, who are largely opposed to the current design and implementation of eircodes.

TheBustedFlush

Bayberry wrote: »

Any Bank that refuses to do business with someone because they can't remember their eircode is going to get more than a few complaints!

Banks and other businesses won't introduce that sort of friction into their customer relationships without a compelling reason. So you're back to the chicken and egg situation of expecting the commercial sector to drive widespread adoption of eircodes because you think the commercial sector has lots gain from the adoption of eircodes, even though nobody can point to any such benefits, except possibly the independent delivery sector, who are largely opposed to the current design and implementation of eircodes.

It will gradually come in as part of the checking and security procedures - it will help to reduce duplicate addresses, improve security checks, identify/reduce fraudulent behaviour, etc - all of which currently costs them money.

The independent delivery sector 'largely opposed'?? The sector doesn't seem to know what it wants. Some of them say they will use eircodes - it improves their current situation. Some of them say they won't, yet now admit that the routing key might be useful after all to small businesses who can't afford the licensing charges.

You may well be right - ultimately, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating.
That's the risk involved for the licence holder. If it doesn't hit its targets, then it won't get paid. And probably likely that if it continues to miss its targets, it could lose its licence.

Bayberry

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

If you could send that on to the UK-obsessed FTAI, that would help to enlighten them.

So the FTAI are UK-obsessed because they point to the UK as an example of what's wrong with eircode, but the people above who point to their experience of post-codes in the UK as a reason with eircodes will succeed aren't UK-obsessed?

Exactly - this kind of indiscriminate grouping of properties for various purposes like house prices, credit profiling, insurance premiums, etc won't be facilitated.

EH, sorry, but if you think that insurance companies and banks can't assign you to a specific risk pool because your location isn't encoded directly in your eircode, you're in for a surprise - they can get your geos in less time than it takes you to read your eircode out. And in the case of the LPT, you'll have to go to the Revenue's website and ask them for the guide price for your house, (and they'll know that you checked), you can't just get a guide price for your area, and you can't double check that your neighbour is getting the same guide price that you're getting.

The random nature of eircode doesn't solve ANY of the supposed weaknesses caused by "small area discrimination", precisely because it's being implemented in 2015, not 1975 and computers have changed the costs of data management.

Exactly. Thankfully, Ireland decided not to replicate it. (the UK postcode design)

Then why would the widespread adoption of postcodes in Ireland in 2015 be expected to follow their adoption in the UK in 1965?

Bayberry

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

That's the risk involved for the licence holder. If it doesn't hit its targets, then it won't get paid.

Have you seen the contract? Do you know what these "targets" might be?

I'm pretty sure that Capita aren't losing any money over the persistent delays in the roll-out of eircode - that's not the way Capita works. The taxpayer will foot the bill.

plodder

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Not true. Royal Mail and other postal services will deliver mail without any postcode being used as part of the address. It'll take longer but they'll deliver as long as they have an address which they can figure out.

The point is as you acknowledge, that it will take longer. Whereas it will make no difference whatsoever for the typical unambiguous Irish address and that fact may hinder adoption of eircodes. I'll reply to your other points later.

Bayberry

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

It will gradually come in as part of the checking and security procedures - it will help to reduce duplicate addresses, improve security checks, identify/reduce fraudulent behaviour, etc - all of which currently costs them money.

My bank knows my PPS number - it has to so that it can pay the DIRT tax on my behalf. I have never been asked to provide my PPS number to authenticate myself to my bank. So it's not clear that additional information is useful in that regard (especially information that it as least partially public - they'd be better off asking me for my favourite colour when I opened my account!)

You conflate the issue of duplicate addresses with fraud, but that's guilding the lily more than a little. The vast majority of "duplicate" addresses are simply alternative acceptable formats for the same address (for instance some people will use Firhouse in their address, some people, maybe even other people in the same house, will use Tallaght), and the banks and other organizations already have access to databases that can "normalize" such addresses. If they have already done that, then eircode doesn't help them, if they haven't, then it probably doesn't cost them as much as you think it does.

TheBustedFlush

Bayberry wrote: »

Have you seen the contract? Do you know what these "targets" might be?

I'm pretty sure that Capita aren't losing any money over the persistent delays in the roll-out of eircode - that's not the way Capita works. The taxpayer will foot the bill.

No - I don't know what the targets might be. But I'm pretty sure there have to be some - standard on most contracts, along with KPI's, etc, etc. Otherwise - how do you get paid and get a return on your up-front money?

If the buyer delays, that's the buyer's problem. If the supplier delays, that's the supplier's problem.

Bayberry

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

No - I don't know what the targets might be. But I'm pretty sure there have to be some - standard on most contracts, along with KPI's, etc, etc. Otherwise - how do you get paid and get a return on your up-front money?

If the buyer delays, that's the buyer's problem. If the supplier delays, that's the supplier's problem.

You're new here, aren't you :-)

TheBustedFlush

Bayberry wrote: »

My bank knows my PPS number - it has to so that it can pay the DIRT tax on my behalf. I have never been asked to provide my PPS number to authenticate myself to my bank. So it's not clear that additional information is useful in that regard (especially information that it as least partially public - they'd be better off asking me for my favourite colour when I opened my account!)

You conflate the issue of duplicate addresses with fraud, but that's guilding the lily more than a little. The vast majority of "duplicate" addresses are simply alternative acceptable formats for the same address (for instance some people will use Firhouse in their address, some people, maybe even other people in the same house, will use Tallaght), and the banks and other organizations already have access to databases that can "normalize" such addresses. If they have already done that, then eircode doesn't help them, if they haven't, then it probably doesn't cost them as much as you think it does.

No conflation intended - separate cost issues for them - as stated by them, and that they readily acknowledge a unique postcode will help them reduce costs. By what factor I don't know. Ultimately, that's their business decision admittedly and time will tell what's been effective and what hasn't.

TheBustedFlush

Bayberry wrote: »

You're new here, aren't you :-)

Are you asking me out on a date?:)

marmurr1916

Bayberry wrote: »

Any Bank that refuses to do business with someone because they can't remember their eircode is going to get more than a few complaints!

Banks and other businesses won't introduce that sort of friction into their customer relationships without a compelling reason. So you're back to the chicken and egg situation of expecting the commercial sector to drive widespread adoption of eircodes because you think the commercial sector has lots gain from the adoption of eircodes, even though nobody can point to any such benefits, except possibly the independent delivery sector, who are largely opposed to the current design and implementation of eircodes.

Banks in the UK ask a range of security questions when customers phone them. The postcode is only one of them. It uses postcodes because customers find them easy to remember and are used to giving postcode details for a huge variety of purposes.

Nobody's suggested that banks won't do business with customers who can't remember their eircodes but it will become normal for customers to be asked their eircode which will encourage its use.

I don't think you realise that the vast, vast majority of people aren't even slightly bothered by the introduction of eircodes and they'll willingly adapt to their use.

The percentage of obsessive cranks in the general population is far, far lower than on this thread.

Alun

Bayberry wrote: »

You're new here, aren't you :-)

Says the person who only joined boards a week ago ...

marmurr1916

Bayberry wrote: »

A UK Postcode doesn't identify a house - an eircode does. So a UK business can't get rid of street names and numbers, but if eircodes were as ubiquituous as UK postcodes, why would an Irish business bother with street names and numbers, it'd be an unnecessary duplication and cost, whereas we're told that eircodes are supposed to lower costs for businesses. That's just one of the reasons that the experience in the UK can't be assumed to be applicable in Ireland. It's a fundamentally different design, being introduced in a radically different technological environment.

Postcodes in the UK were introduced at a time when computers weren't part of everybodies workflow, so a quick lookup of a postcode in a printed directory was useful, and, as has been pointed out numerous times, the hierarchical nature of UK post codes facilitated this. We're told that this design isn't necessary nowadays, because everthing is computerised, so we have a non-hierarchical eircode, but we're supposed to believe that it will be used because it'll be easier, even though computerisation means it won't be easier.

A quick example was the so called "Local" Property Tax - the Revenue produced "guide" prices for different areas so that people would know what band they might expect their house to be in if it was a typical house for their area. UK style postcodes would have facilitated this, but eircodes are useless for this purpose.

The bottom line is that UK postcodes are widely used in environments where they solved pre-computer era problems. There was no need to phase out the use of post codes as the delpoyment of computers increased in the UK, but equally, there's no obvious gap in Irish customer service in the 21st century that the introduction of eircodes will fill. "But they do it in England so it must be a good idea" isn't a compelling business case for most Irish businesses.

Most Irish businesses aren't going to be that bothered. The vast majority with databases will simply add the eircode as another field. Don't forget that nearly all Irish businesses are micro-businesses or in the SME sector (with the emphasis on the S) and will probably be using Excel spreadsheets or some other simple to change database for their records. They'll just add eircodes as and when they need to.

Irish businesses are also heavily influenced by their counterparts in the UK. I sincerely doubt that many of them will be as obsessed with the finer details of eircodes or will hold out for some idealised, supposedly optimal solution. Do you honestly imagine that if you went to your local Chamber of Commerce meeting to introduce eircodes that you'd be bombarded with questions about Loc8 or similar systems?

Do you honestly imagine that when eircodes are introduced that most people will give a toss about the underlying rationale behind the system or know anything about the ins and outs of the design of the system?

You and the other opponents or critics are assuming that postcodes are actually an issue that people have strong feelings about one way or the other. They're not - they're just a banal piece of modern life, utterly unremarkable and utterly unremarked on, in pretty much every country that uses them. Do you think that the average British pub is filled with people discussing the intricacies of postcode systems on a Friday night? Nobody cares. People will just get on and use them, just like they got on and used PINs, PPS Numbers and all other codes and numbers that living in a complex, modern society involves. Get over yerselves lads - people don't care. :rolleyes:

yuloni

This post has been deleted.

marmurr1916

plodder wrote: »

The point is as you acknowledge, that it will take longer. Whereas it will make no difference whatsoever for the typical unambiguous Irish address and that fact may hinder adoption of eircodes. I'll reply to your other points later.

Don't bother. I'm no longer bored enough to post on this thread. People don't care enough about postcodes not to adopt them.

marmurr1916

yuloni wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Boredom. Which has now been cured. Bye!

Alun

Alun wrote: »

Says the person who only joined boards a week ago ...

Most likely a re-reg.

dr.fuzzenstein

Bayberry wrote: »

Any Bank that refuses to do business with someone because they can't remember their eircode is going to get more than a few complaints!

Banks and other businesses won't introduce that sort of friction into their customer relationships without a compelling reason. So you're back to the chicken and egg situation of expecting the commercial sector to drive widespread adoption of eircodes because you think the commercial sector has lots gain from the adoption of eircodes, even though nobody can point to any such benefits, except possibly the independent delivery sector, who are largely opposed to the current design and implementation of eircodes.

A bank will refuse to do business with you if you can't produce a domestic bill of some sort "proving" that you live at your address. I guess that would include your Eircode. And they basically say "If you don't like it, you are more than welcome to go to the competition, who will tell you the exact same thing", namely gimme bill, or GTFO. If you have ever opened a bank account, you might have noticed that.
I would imagine that this legally required proof of address would have to include your Eircode, otherwise the bank will say "off you go, tootle back on home and come back with a bill with your entire address on it, or we can't do business.
I don't know if this will impact existing customers, the bank might want an updated address, but I'm not sure. But it wouldn't surprise me.
So, to open an account, your Eircode will be an inevitability.

dr.fuzzenstein

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Banks in the UK ask a range of security questions when customers phone them. The postcode is only one of them. It uses postcodes because customers find them easy to remember and are used to giving postcode details for a huge variety of purposes.

Nobody's suggested that banks won't do business with customers who can't remember their eircodes but it will become normal for customers to be asked their eircode which will encourage its use.

I don't think you realise that the vast, vast majority of people aren't even slightly bothered by the introduction of eircodes and they'll willingly adapt to their use.

The percentage of obsessive cranks in the general population is far, far lower than on this thread.

In Ireland I wouldn't be so sure. They certainly come out of the woodwork whenever anyone is trying to drag this sorry country into the 20th century, nevermind the 21st. A lot of this thread reminds me of Abe Simpson on the metric system.

plodder

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Most people in the UK just learn their postcode off by heart. They don't know and don't care about the structure of UK postcodes.

Of course they don't care or think about it much. But, it's undeniable that postcodes are easier to remember when they correspond even roughly to recognisable places. And remembering your own postcode is always going to be easy, but remembering other people's might not be, or even recognising where a postcode comes from. eg BT == Belfast (therefore all of NI)

marmurr1916 wrote: »

An eircode is easy to remember. The first few characters will be the same for everyone in the eircode regions. I'm pretty sure that everyone remembers the area code prefix for their landline phone number, even though those numbers (eg. 021, 051) aren't derived from or related to placenames.

Random sequences of letters and numbers aren't as easy to remember as structured sequences of letters and numbers. They just aren't.

marmurr1916 wrote: »

The first two characters (letters) of my current UK postcode bear no relation to the county I'm in and they're not even related to the name of the nearest large town. Instead they're related to a large town which is the chief place for the postcode area I'm in although it's twice as far away from me as the closest large town!

There are large areas of Scotland where the first two letters in the postcode have no relation to the name of the nearest town, or where they have no relation to the name of the county/local authority. For example, huge areas of the Highlands of Scotland have IV (for Inverness) as the first two letters of their postcode even if they're 70-80 miles from Inverness. Likewise with the PH postcode area.

The KW (for Kirkwall) postcode area covers not just the Orkneys (of which Kirkwall is the largest town) but also a chunk of the north-easternmost corner of the Scottish mainland. People who live on the mainland frequently complain that they have to pay higher delivery charges because they share a KW postcode with the Orkney Islands despite the fact that most of the KW postcode area is on the mainland, with only 3 out of the 16 districts (KW15, KW16, KW17) covering the Orkney Islands.

All postcodes in Shetland start with the letters ZE for Zetland, supposedly a traditional name but not used by anyone who actually lives there for decades.

Many people in these Scottish postcode areas don't see any connection between the names of places where they live and the first two letters of their postcode.

This isn't just confined to Scotland.

For many years the postcodes on the Wirral peninsula (opposite Liverpool) shared the L postcode with Liverpool.

So many local residents complained for various reasons that they were removed from the Liverpool postcode area and placed into the CH (for Chester) postcode area.

Even now some people in the CH postcode area complain because it includes some areas within Wales, and some residents of the Welsh areas covered by the CH postcode don't want to have an 'English' postcode. Likewise with they SY postcode area that covers a large area of central Wales, since the SY postcode is derived from Shrewsbury, a town in England.

And then there's the North which has just one postcode area (BT) to cover the entire region.

That's all very interesting, but all you're actually saying is that the UK postcode is not a "perfect" design (whatever perfect actually means)

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Don't assume that everyone in the UK is happy with their postcode or that the first letter/letters in their postcode are always related to towns or locations that people within those postcode areas have a meaningful connection to.

By and large the initial letters have some relevance. Outside of Dublin, Eircode routing keys will have zero relevance.

marmurr1916 wrote: »

No they don't. The street I currently live has several different postcodes depending on the house number you live in. Likewise with the last street I lived on. You could live on a street where you and your neighbour on your left share a full postcode but your neighbour on your right has a different postcode and the neighbours across the street have yet another postcode.

Okay, let's at least state the question scientifically. What percentage of houses in the UK have the same postcode as their two immediate neighbours? What would the answer be? 70%, 80% or more possibly. What is the percentage with Eircode? 0%

marmurr1916 wrote: »

I'm not sure why having the same code as some of your neighbours is supposed to encourage greater use. I don't have the same phone number as my neighbours, although our landlines have the same area code.

It's just a matter of being easier to remember, more recognisable, easier to place to a location. Eircodes are more like PPS numbers. They are mostly opaque. People will learn off their own. Any others that need to be used will have to be written down, or recorded some other way. Nobody is going to learn off all the Eircodes of the people on your own street.

marmurr1916 wrote: »

I've never been in/heard of a UK takeaway that relies on a postcode map to set its delivery area. It's usually a map showing streets etc within a given distance of the takeaway's premises.

How do you know? Do you actually check? Local postcode maps are widely available. You can buy them. Obviously people must be using them.

marmurr1916 wrote: »

And I'm pretty sure that SatNav databases are more useful to takeaway delivery drivers than maps these days.

I think that's an interesting point, that is often made. ie that IT based (supposedly) hi-tech solutions are by definition better than old paper based systems. Where have we heard that before? And maybe you just have to be working in IT for a long time to know it's a dangerous assumption to make.

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Even in urban areas people will be asked for their eircodes frequently, especially for financial transactions, by utility companies etc. If you're asked for something often enough you'll get to know it, remember it and use it. The mere fact of being asked for it frequently will help to ensure a high take up.

I don't disagree that people will learn off their own Eircode, and they will be used for these purposes. Also, I'm not suggesting we should adopt the UK postcode either.

Bayberry

Alun wrote: »

Says the person who only joined boards a week ago ...

Whoosh!!!!!!

I was responding to a suggestion that when it comes to interactions between the commercial sector and the government or the civil service, that normal commercial rules apply - nothing to do with membership of boards.

(Maybe if I'd been here longer, I'd have known that subtlety might confuse some of the readers here)

Carawaystick

Bayberry wrote: »

My bank knows my PPS number - it has to so that it can pay the DIRT tax on my behalf.

I've been charged dirt since before I had a pps number ( or even a rsi number) .
The banks don't need to know any number to deduct tax from their payments to you.