National Postcodes to be introduced

plodder

Bayberry wrote: »

Sorry, I meant is there any evidence that anyone in the marketing/direct mail sector expressed a preference for any particular features to be included in a postcode design. All direct mail is database driven anyway, so they won't be impacted one way or another by the design of eircode - looking up the eircode of everyone within 500m of a particular business and printing their name and address on a flyer doesn't require a hierarchical postal code, it just needs a computer and a database.

From what I can see, the only concern that the direct marketing segment would have about eircode is that it is so specific that there will be regulations put in place that will prevent them from collecting eircodes from the public in the first place - so a restaurant for example, won't be able to ask people for their eircode if it wants to decide where to open a new branch. Some people argue that this is a good thing, and that this makes the "random" part of eircode a feature rather than a bug, but I'm not really convinced that that's a good enough justification for breaking so many other features of a postcode.

I don't think they are prevented from asking. But, people will be understandably reluctant to hand it over. Whereas, if Eircode was exactly as it is now, but just with another level of hierarchy identifying a small area, then they could ask people for the first five characters of their Eircode, and everyone would be clear that privacy is not affected.

(I have lived in the US, and it always annoyed me to be asked for my ZIP code when I bought batteries in Radio Shack, so I understand the antipathy. I'm definiteky not convinced that random eircodes is a good fix for that, though!)

This was discussed before. They ostensibly ask for ZIP code when verifying credit card transactions, which is legitimate, but they might be sneakily asking for it in other situations, purely from a marketing point of view. I expect the same thing will happen here, because an Eircode will provide your complete address, which is even more valuable.

SpaceTime

The zip code credit card thing in the USA is largely down to lack of chip and pin.

The banks there steadfastly refused to roll it out until very recently.

It's fairly irrelevant in Ireland to be honest and U.S. Machines refusing to take cards without a zip won't be able to verify non us cards that way anyway.

Will we receive our postcodes this month?

plodder

SpaceTime wrote: »

The zip code credit card thing in the USA is largely down to lack of chip and pin.

The banks there steadfastly refused to roll it out until very recently.

It's fairly irrelevant in Ireland to be honest and U.S. Machines refusing to take cards without a zip won't be able to verify non us cards that way anyway.

It should be irrelevant, but as said the last time, I've been asked for my address on occasion when they didn't actually need it. I think if Eircode is the great success that people are hoping for, then it will be easier to ask people for their Eircode and enter it on a till. Not a major issue, but worth noting.

recedite

plodder wrote: »

Whereas, if Eircode was exactly as it is now, but just with another level of hierarchy identifying a small area, then they could ask people for the first five characters of their Eircode, and everyone would be clear that privacy is not affected.

Very true, this is just another example of why eircode is better than nothing, but represents a wasted opportunity to introduce an excellent system.

But as people keep pointing out, the average person is not too interested, and will just accept whatever old $hit they are given, and they will be happy enough with that. Sadly.

Sam Russell

recedite wrote: »

Very true, this is just another example of why eircode is better than nothing, but represents a wasted opportunity to introduce an excellent system.

But as people keep pointing out, the average person is not too interested, and will just accept whatever old $hit they are given, and they will be happy enough with that. Sadly.

Absolutely.

We, as a nation, have a history of introducing poor or very poor solutions to solve national infrastructure decisions. You only have to look at the eVoting fiasco, or Irish Water to get a flavour of what passes for Government thinking. And there are so many examples of this crass thinking - Luas is just one example of not-joined up thinking. It cost many times the original cost to put right wrong decisions.

If they could think of a worse way of doing something, then they would have gone with that - and that applies to nearly all decisions.

Bayberry

SpaceTime wrote: »

The zip code credit card thing in the USA is largely down to lack of chip and pin.

The only time that I was ever asked for my ZIP code when using a credit card in the US was at a "gas" pump. I was never asked for it by a cashier at a counter, except in connection with marketing info - I know this because I always gave a false ZIP code in that situation, and I never had a transaction declined.

SpaceTime

recedite wrote: »

Very true, this is just another example of why eircode is better than nothing, but represents a wasted opportunity to introduce an excellent system.

But as people keep pointing out, the average person is not too interested, and will just accept whatever old $hit they are given, and they will be happy enough with that. Sadly.

Did you not hear that could have effected house prices! Sacred cow... Cannot be touched... Hence this hobbled system.

They're quite obviously terrified at the idea of grouping houses and political fallout as a house in Poshtown gets grouped with a house in Council Estate.

Trouwe Ier

The more I think about it, the more I accept the logic of using unique identifiers that are not in any way sequential or similar to those assigned to nearby letter boxes.

That said, I used to work for one of the utilities in Belfast and the post code format there was invaluable in identifying an address, especially in the pre-satnav era.

I'm very curious about the routing keys however: how large the 117 outside of Dublin will be, what letters will be assigned to the routing key "regions" and whether they will be publicised before the 2.2 million letters are sent out.

And will, we get the letters this month at all? I suppose it depends on the passage of the second stage of the bill. Presumably, we could still get the letters but organisations might be legally prevented from using or processing the codes until the Bill becomes an Act.

At this stage, they would also want to tackle the issue of roads-without-names as well. I agree fully with what was said earlier about the perils of leaving it to local representatives and organisations. There are a good many un-named roads in that part of Limerick City that was outside of the old city boundary. As a topical example, there was a serious (but thankfully non-fatal) road traffic collision on the road that links Dooradoyle with the M20 motorway yesterday morning. I think it is called Dooradoyle Road but I've never been sure. It is a busy four lane road at its north-western end narowing down to two lanes nearer the motorway. However, its name is ambiguous and the link road from the Huntsfield Roundabout to the M20 has no name at all so it must have been confusing yesterday for the emergency services (there for 90 minutes) and those trying to avoid the area on foot of hearing traffic announcements.

When I lived in the North, there was a general policy of trying to call roads in rural areas after townlands they passed through and even in the DUP stronghold of Castlereagh, developers were encouraged to do likewise with new housing estates.

I also tried to drop a letter off to a domestic letter in Main Street, Abbeyfeale last week. It is a long and busy street but has no house numbers. I was told that the same applies to most towns and villages in Co. Limerick. The North and South Circular Roads in Limerick City have hundreds of houses, nearly all of them individually named.

The Fire Brigade will always see the smoke but the ambulance service and the shades will continue to be hampered in responding to emergency calls to ambiguous addresses.

Although not perfect, if Eircodes are of any assistance then let's be positive.

Trouwe Ier

P.S. At this stage, Eircode could be a bit positive themselves and provide updates on their website.

SpaceTime

Is it actually launching this summer ?

paulbok

SpaceTime wrote: »

Is it actually launching this summer ?

I would have expected a major advertising campaign by now if the codes are being mailed out by the end of this month. At the latest I though once the referendum was over, they (the govt) would be focusing on the roll-out of eircode.
I think someone reported a few pages back that there was one official on the tv/radio about it, but that's all I've heard of it.

Bayberry

Trouwe Ier wrote: »

The more I think about it, the more I accept the logic of using unique identifiers that are not in any way sequential or similar to those assigned to nearby letter boxes.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, I just wonder what aspects of the random part of eircode you are coming around to.

The more I think about it, the madder it seems. There's a well known phrase in Science "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence", and something as extraordinary as random house numbers should need extraordinary advantages before they are deployed.

Your example of deliverying a letter in Abbeyfeale is exactly why eircodes shouldn't be random. If the response is that you'll be able to use your phone to do a database lookup that'll get you to a specific door, then the real question should be why you can't do that with the house names that are there now? After all, they're in An Posts geo-directory (the master database that eircodes are based on).

larchill

Nothing on www.eircode.ie, its been the same for months now. You wouldn't think we were just weeks to launch. Still very vague comments like 'coming 2015', etc.

Makes me wonder if this thing's happening at all! :rolleyes:

Trouwe Ier

No fight-picking perceived!

I suppose what I meant is that there are some advantages to assigning a unique identifier to each letter box but as stated, I did work with the Royal Mail system in Belfast and it was very user-friendly.

My point about Abbeyfeale was that if it had been possible for me to put a house number on the letter label, then when I arrived, without recourse to any phone or satnav, I could have eye-balled a few doors looking for a number and then honed in on the target address the old-fashioned way. Had I access to Google Maps, I could have also entered "273 Main Street, Abbeyfeale" for example and I would have got some idea of where to go.

As regards promotion of the new system. I've followed Eircode on Twitter since before Easter and I am unaware of them tweeting anything.

Thinhs may pick up next Monday or the Monday after.

paulbok

larchill wrote: »

Nothing on www.eircode.ie, its been the same for months now. You wouldn't think we were just weeks to launch. Still very vague comments like 'coming 2015', etc.

Makes me wonder if this thing's happening at all! :rolleyes:

Putting on my tinfoil hat, I wonder is it being delayed to have maximum impact for next springs/years general election.

irishgeo

paulbok wrote: »

Putting on my tinfoil hat, I wonder is it being delayed to have maximum impact for next springs/years general election.

save a fortune getting canvassers to deliver the eircode.

Bayberry

Trouwe Ier wrote: »

No fight-picking perceived!

I suppose what I meant is that there are some advantages to assigning a unique identifier to each letter box but as stated, I did work with the Royal Mail system in Belfast and it was very user-friendly.

My point about Abbeyfeale was that if it had been possible for me to put a house number on the letter label, then when I arrived, without recourse to any phone or satnav, I could have eye-balled a few doors looking for a number and then honed in on the target address the old-fashioned way. Had I access to Google Maps, I could have also entered "273 Main Street, Abbeyfeale" for example and I would have got some idea of where to go.

I have no problem with the notion of individual postcodes versus "street codes" or a code that covers a hundred houses or so like the one in the UK. I'd be happy with either. It's the notion of completely random eircodes, so that one house on Main St, Abbeyfeale might be AB7-7DR3 and the house next door would be AB7-M86U. AB7-7DR2 might be in Ballybunion, and AB7-7DR4 might be in Brosna, that I have a problem with.

(Obviously made up examples - I have no doubt that actual sequential eircodes will be deliberately unassigned where possible, and with on the order of a million eircodes per zone, there's no shortage of "spare" eircodes).

TheBustedFlush

Bayberry wrote: »

I have no problem with the notion of individual postcodes versus "street codes" or a code that covers a hundred houses or so like the one in the UK. I'd be happy with either. It's the notion of completely random eircodes, so that one house on Main St, Abbeyfeale might be AB7-7DR3 and the house next door would be AB7-M86U. AB7-7DR2 might be in Ballybunion, and AB7-7DR4 might be in Brosna, that I have a problem with.

(Obviously made up examples - I have no doubt that actual sequential eircodes will be deliberately unassigned where possible, and with on the order of a million eircodes per zone, there's no shortage of "spare" eircodes).

There's an average of 15k houses per zone/postal district. There's about 360k possible codes in each district. The allocation rules prevent random allocation of sequenced/similar codes in the same zone - i.e., AB7 7DR2, AB7 7DR3, AB7 7DR4 as per your example.

Bayberry

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

The allocation rules prevent random allocation of sequenced/similar codes in the same zone - i.e., AB7 7DR2, AB7 7DR3, AB7 7DR4 as per your example.

How far apart (numerically, not physically) do codes have to be - if AB7-7DR1 exists, can AB7-7DR6, exist, for example? Or will there only be one eircode using AB7-7DR for the first 6 characters?

Trouwe Ier

Good question about the random codes. There may well be a check digit in there.

Using the "Hoot Suite" package, I've "intercepted" the following tweets:-

Gamma_irl retweeted
SligoLeader 12:08pm via Twitter for Android
Ann delivering info on Eircode at the Sligo LEADER info morning in Tubbercurry FRC

Gamma_irl 3:48pm via Twitter Web Client
#Eircode won’t invade privacy, says Data Protection Commissioner - utv.ie/News/2015/06/0…

There was another newspaper in there somewhere, in Longford, I think but I can't find it now. There's also a lot of tweeting by "GetLostEircodes" (against) and "loc8code" (seemingly for).

But still nothing for Eircode itself though I will check that I input the right twitter name.

Perhaps the 2.2 million letters will go out this month after all. However, there isn't really an excuse for failing to provide updates on the web.

Trouwe Ier

Well, here you go: A less than active electronic media presence so far!

Eircode
@ Eircode
Eircode - Location codes for Irish addressess
eircode.ie
0
TWEETS
0
FOLLOWING
135
FOLLOWERS

TheBustedFlush

Bayberry wrote: »

How far apart (numerically, not physically) do codes have to be - if AB7-7DR1 exists, can AB7-7DR6, exist, for example? Or will there only be one eircode using AB7-7DR for the first 6 characters?

Don't know the answer to that.

TheBustedFlush

Trouwe Ier wrote: »

There's also a lot of tweeting by "GetLostEircodes" (against) and "loc8code" (seemingly for).

you might need to check that software package......

a65b2cd

Bayberry wrote: »

How far apart (numerically, not physically) do codes have to be - if AB7-7DR1 exists, can AB7-7DR6, exist, for example? Or will there only be one eircode using AB7-7DR for the first 6 characters?

I would expect that both A07 7DR1 and A07 7DR2 will exist but the control will be that they will not be for a similar sounding address e.g. 15 green lawns, 16 green lawns, 15 green crescent. They are unlikely not to use the full character set so the difference will be physical distance and address similarity.

Autoaddress are probably using their address matching software to separate Eircodes with addresses that have some level of similarity and are in the same postal town.

a65b2cd

Trouwe Ier wrote: »

and "loc8code" (seemingly for)

are you sure!

Trouwe Ier

a65b2cd wrote: »

are you sure!

I apologise: there was an optical (but easy to make) error on my screen (that's why I said "seemingly"). The columns were not wide enough and some text was missing.

I'm getting old!

a65b2cd

Interesting article by UTV News

Eircode won’t invade privacy, says Data Protection Commissioner

Politics, Technology 02 Jun 2015

The Data Protection Commissioner says she is satisfied that the long-awaited Eircode postcode system for Ireland won’t infringe on people's privacy.

Story by UTV Ireland Staff, Dublin

The first Eircodes are due to be issued this month.

Many e-commerce and courier companies say they hope to benefit.

As a courier covering rural Waterford, James Cummins knows all too well the importance of the personal touch.

His franchise area stretches from Kilmacthomas to Ardmore and he has got to know most of the houses in between.

While he sees the benefits to a national postcode system, he reckons it is unlikely to impact on his work.

“I’m after managing this long without them so I couldn’t see it being any benefit to me now. The nature of our business is finding houses but I've been in it so long I've got to know a lot of people. You get to know the area, you get to know the people within that area, and it’s just second nature. You get to know where you're going,” he said.

James believes that Eircodes are likely to benefit internet retailers most, when the seven-digit codes begin to roll out later this month.

With almost €5 billion euro spent online in Ireland last year, Digital Rights Groups are worried that the unique nature of the postcodes could put people’s privacy at risk.

The company implementing the system says that is not true.

The Data Protection Commissioner raised similar concerns about privacy last year but says draft data protection legislation to be introduced alongside Eircode goes a long way.

In a statement, it says that while a “cluster-based” postcode model would have posed less of a risk to privacy, it accepts that the government had to provide a solution to the issue of the large proportion of non-unique addresses in Ireland.

The €16 million euro national postcode system has been a long time coming for some; for others like James, it remains to be seen if it can get the stamp of approval.

Bayberry

a65b2cd wrote: »

In a statement, it says that while a “cluster-based” postcode model would have posed less of a risk to privacy, it accepts that the government had to provide a solution to the issue of the large proportion of non-unique addresses in Ireland.

Another "feckit, sure it'll do" seal of approval, so.

antoinolachtnai

The stated position is very clearly technically incorrect. There is no contradiction between a 'cluster based' postcode model and identifying every single house.