National Postcodes to be introduced

antoinolachtnai

ukoda wrote: »

Huh? That's not true?? It's the property

And it's going to be unlikely that a new estate between 2 existing ones would have a different route

It's just that the original route will no longer be correct. I am thinking of the instance where a town (town A) grows into the hinterland of a neighbouring town (town and so it becomes more sensible to deliver to outlying estates from town A and to number new estates with the routing code of town A. You can 'grandfather' the existing estates and leave them with the code of town B, if there is some 'rule' that the code can't change, but the whole thing becomes incoherent.

As time goes on and the population distribution changes, the routing code won't really be a routing code anymore.

ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

The CEO of Nightline was told otherwise it would seem:



Structured so it can be tweaked over time? I wonder does he understand what he's on about

Well it sounds like that's his opinion and not something eircode have necessarily told him

antoinolachtnai

ukoda wrote: »

Well it sounds like that's his opinion and not something eircode have necessarily told him

Can a65b2cd clear this up for us?

recedite

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

If the routing key is linked to An Post delivery areas, it would make sense that it would change as An Post delivery areas change.

That would make sense alright, using current thinking. By "current thinking", I mean the status quo situation where An Post is clinging on to a very tenous "legal right" to mess around with people's addresses, changing them according to its whim. It seems to have acquired this right in the days when The Post Office was an arm of the State.
But now we have already come through an era of privatisation, and An Post failed in their bid to become the national postcode provider.
So although the routing code part of eircode will be based on the existing Dublin postcodes (for political or popularity reasons) once written into the eircode it is no longer a post office sorting code. At that point it has been adopted as part of a national addressing system which is not under the control of An Post.

Take for example the Scholarstown/Ballycullen area of south Dublin which has seen intensive house building on greenfield areas over the last few years. Some estates are using the D24 designation and others the more desirable D16. Some use "Rathfarnham" as part of their address, even though it is miles away in D14. It would be unfair to the residents if their eircode prefix kept flipping from one to the other whenever An Post felt like re-organising the postman's delivery route.

So, basically I am saying that An Post, as the country’s designated "Universal Service Provider" for postal deliveries, is still in a position to dictate addresses. But after eircode has been implemented as the new national addressing system, with the enabling legislation passed through the Dail, then I don't see An Post having any role in dictating peoples addresses.

These guys from eircode tweeting about the "shifting routing codes" and "no fixed polygons" are still thinking in terms of shifting postal routes as determined by An Post, and they have still not got their heads around the responsibility they have been given, which was to develop a national addressing system.

a65b2cd

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

My understanding was that properties were being assigned codes.

A CODE ON A PROPERTY

antoinolachtnai

a65b2cd wrote: »

A CODE ON A PROPERTY

Ms Cronin clearly stated in the quote you provided that it is persons who get codes. Is she wrong?

Patricia Cronin at the Oireachtas in November 2014:

We have adopted a non-sequential system to make sure that when a person gets a code, that code stays with that property. When a person gets a code on a property, he or she will always have that code

So what can you tell us about the Nightline CEO's views? Are they wrong too?

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

An Post is clinging on to a very tenous "legal right" to mess around with people's addresses, changing them according to its whim. It seems to have acquired this right in the days when The Post Office was an arm of the State.
.

An Post should absolutely have full control over addresses in this country.

What do you think we should have? A nation where everyone makes up their own address?

The should fully control address assigning, structure and maintenance.

ukoda

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Ms Cronin clearly stated in the quote you provided that it is persons who get codes. Is she wrong?



So what can you tell us about the Nightline CEO's views? Are they wrong too?

You're not reading her statement correctly. She clearly says the code is on the property.

a65b2cd

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Can a65b2cd clear this up for us?

I can only give you my opinion. My understanding is that Nightline just want a code. His speculation was probably just that.

I think Liam O'Sullivan indicated that the new An Post software will be able to compare an Eircode against the text address. That granularity would support your suggestion that an item of mail could be rerouted to a different postal town by the software based on it's full Eircode. A bit like Nightline, I imagine the addressee won't care which postal town delivered it!

If the codes change over time then what's the point of having a database?

Trouwe Ier

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

it is occupants who are being assigned the codes. That is very interesting.
?

That doesn't sound rational. How could that work for a business, in an extreme case, say where there is a factory with hundreds of employees?

Also, what about students living near their colleges during the week but going home for the weekend or holidays?

The new bill speciically mentions "post code".

a65b2cd

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Ms Cronin clearly stated in the quote you provided that it is persons who get codes. Is she wrong?

Yes, persons will receive an Eircode for the address they reside at. We would need Immanuel Kant or some such luminary to determine whether an inanimate object can "get" a code or whether an Eircode assigned to an address can only be delivered to a person.

ukoda

For god sakes it's the property that gets the code. This has been announced and confirmed over and over again. It's on the eircode website and has been said numberous times by numberous people.

The statement means that when the person living in the house gets the code, they will always have the same code FOR THAT HOUSE.

Seriously you can't really be trying to debate this.

antoinolachtnai

The plan appears to be to deliver the codes to individuals, not properties, at least in the case of non-unique addresses. This is essential to avoid begging the question.

This also appears to be the rationale for the legislation, i.e., to allow An Post to use its databases of people to help it deliver the eircodes to the right buildings.

There is a lot of sloppy, imprecise language being thrown around. This is not because the people using it are sloppy or imprecise. It is because these people are trying to give themselves wriggle room.

ukoda

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The plan appears to be to deliver the codes to individuals, not properties, at least in the case of non-unique addresses. This is essential to avoid begging the question.

This also appears to be the rationale for the legislation, i.e., to allow An Post to use its databases of people to help it deliver the eircodes to the right buildings.

There is a lot of sloppy, imprecise language being thrown around. This is not because the people using it are sloppy or imprecise. It is because these people are trying to give themselves wriggle room.

Yeah ok, or maybe you just misunderstood what you read.

There is no plan to address the code to any individual.

yuloni

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ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

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No. it's not allowed per the draft bill to update the DP legislation.

I don't know how it will be done, but as mentioned before, your average postman had a handheld device now so may they have a system

antoinolachtnai

It would not be permitted at present, but it will be permitted by the proposed legislation, yes. It is proposed to permit the following as a 'legitimate postcode activity'.

para 65A (2)

(c) The dissemination (including through the processing of personal data controlled by An Post, a universal service provider or such person as the Minister considers appropriate), on behalf of either the postcode contractor or the Minister, of a postcode to its corresponding address by An Post, a universal postal service provider or such other person as the Minister considers appropriate

Bayberry

ukoda wrote: »

No. it's not allowed per the draft bill to update the DP legislation.

The draft bill is hardly going to outlaw the An Post Geodirectory, is it? It's my understanding that it already has Name and Geo-coordinate information for every address.

ukoda

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

It would not be permitted at present, but it will be permitted by the proposed legislation, yes. It is proposed to permit the following as a 'legitimate postcode activity'.

What personal data do An Post store on their customers

ukoda

Bayberry wrote: »

The draft bill is hardly going to outlaw the An Post Geodirectory, is it? It's my understanding that it already has Name and Geo-coordinate information for every address.

Does not have name

yuloni

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ukoda

my3cents wrote: »

afaik An Post are supposed to deliver to the address irrespective of the name with the address, thats of course when the address is unique and the postman isn't having to use the name to find a non unique address.

So in some instances of non unique addresses the postman is going to have to use his local knowledge of who lives where to get the eircodes delivered to the correct "address". Unless there is some other system that is going to be used.

True, but they do not collate and store this in a database. Definitely not the geodirectory anyway

ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

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I wouldn't get too excited yet with your "I told you so dance" right now, we know nothing for sure.

And as far as I can gather, every postman uses the handheld now for their normal deliveries, so why would it suddenly be inefficient and impractical.

Bayberry

yuloni wrote: »

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Maybe the plan is to give every postman one of those GoTabs with an eircode app pre-installed

yuloni

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ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

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I said I don't know how they will do it, but my point is that An Post does not have a database currently that links a name to an address. So they can't really use this method to put a name against an eircode either.

The eircode is likely to have "the occupant" as the addressee and that won't help the postman deliver it either.

So they need to come up with some system to do it as they can't start sending out eircodes with names on them, as they don't have this in a database, maybe the postman knows, but how would he know the different between 2 eircodes with the same address and "the occupant" on it

yuloni

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ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

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Well i can think of 2 fairly simple ways of doing it

yuloni

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ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

Please, do share

You'll have to tender for my consultancy first