National Postcodes to be introduced

yuloni

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ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

Ah here, there's enough consultants involved already!!

Well look, it's not rocket science, for 70% you just post them out to the unique address. Job done. For the other 30% there's a few options, 1 being to look at the routes and plan out the sequence the codes should be delivered in and get the postman to stick to it, you could even give him a few print outs for the day, other option is to actually use GPS devices, An Post have them, not a big deal to use them for one day to distribute the codes, would work well as its rural so the houses would be spaced out enough to avoid error. There a few more ways too, but either of the above would work

yuloni

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ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

• Arranging the letters to match the houses order along the route - too error prone. Posties don't always run the same route everyday and one misplaced letter from the pile and every letter following that is misplaced!

• Following GPS co-ords on a handheld for every letter - too slow, cumbersome and error prone. An Post would probably need to schedule a seperate nationwide run just to deliver eircodes for the time it would take fumbling with a handheld. Better suited to third-party distribution if this is the case

• Following the house-holder's name on each eircode letter - ideal for An Post but put's eircode currently in a grey privacy area

On point 3, there's no database to do this with.

No way of doing it so, may as well just give up. I deal with this sort of stuff everyday at work, people can only see problems and never solutions. Or the same crowd that have the attitude of "well one part might fail or it won't be 100% the first time so we can't do it"

People who get things done are people who can see that no way is perfect, but you choose the option that will deliver the biggest success with minimal effort and you put processes in place to deal with errors that are inevitable in any roll out of new stuff.

If you're looking for a perfect way of doing this, there is none.

antoinolachtnai

The way to get out if you paint yourself into a corner is not to paint yourself into a corner.

Eircode has painted itself into a corner. It is now turning out to be very difficult to actually disseminate eircode. Eircode did not realise this until an outside party pointed it out during the PIA.

ukoda

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The way to get out if you paint yourself into a corner is not to paint yourself into a corner.

Eircode has painted itself into a corner. It is now turning out to be very difficult to actually disseminate eircode. Eircode did not realise this until an outside party pointed it out during the PIA.

They can disseminate 70% of them in one day with a flyer and a stamp. There's plenty of options for the other 30%.

antoinolachtnai

It's taken them 18 months and primary legislation to come up with an answer so far.

According to the Department, there is still no final decision on how this will be done.

Bayberry

ukoda wrote: »

They can disseminate 70% of them in one day with a flyer and a stamp. There's plenty of options for the other 30%.

Yes, no bother delivering it to the 70% of houses that don't actually need an eircode, but the 30% of houses that need eircodes because they don't have unique addresses pose a bit of a problem.

Only in Ireland.......

tvc15

ukoda wrote: »

I said I don't know how they will do it, but my point is that An Post does not have a database currently that links a name to an address. So they can't really use this method to put a name against an eircode either.

I can't see how An Post deliver mail now if they don't have names in a database somewhere!

Is there a privacy problem with them collecting and logging the names on letters? Obviously I would have a problem if they sold it as a product but are people not putting names on letters for the purpose of having letters delivered to them?

Trouwe Ier

However challenging it's going to be to deliver the correct Eircode notification to one-off houses in rural townlands, it's going to be a lot more difficult to do so in Main Street, Abbeyfeale and hundreds of other towns where un-numbered front doors may be only 5 or 6 metres apart and GPS accuracy is reduced because of the proximity of other buildings.

It may well be contracted out and there may be something like a customised map extract on the flyer showing the location of the address to which the code applies, relative to surrounding addresses. There may be a scannable code on the flyer which is recorded with the GPS co-ordinates when it is delivered. I hope that they have it worked out.

With the best will in the world, there will now be a 70/30 rule as well as an 80/20 rule.

Trouwe Ier

and Antóin does have a point: It would be difficult to post out an Eircode notification to "The Occupier", Bottomstown, Elton, Co. Limerick (a genuine location with about 50 houses).

plodder

tvc15 wrote: »

I can't see how An Post deliver mail now if they don't have names in a database somewhere!

Is there a privacy problem with them collecting and logging the names on letters? Obviously I would have a problem if they sold it as a product but are people not putting names on letters for the purpose of having letters delivered to them?

I don't see why they would need such a database for delivering normal mail (which isn't to say that they don't have one). They certainly don't need one for the 70% of unique addresses and for the 30% of non unique addresses, the name just needs to be on the envelope, and the postman uses it to route the letter. They might need it to deliver Eircodes, but that's a different question.

By the way there was a newsletter from eircode during the week, saying it's all going ahead in July, with some business briefings this month.

dr.fuzzenstein

plodder wrote: »

I don't see why they would need such a database for delivering normal mail (which isn't to say that they don't have one). They certainly don't need one for the 70% of unique addresses and for the 30% of non unique addresses, the name just needs to be on the envelope, and the postman uses it to route the letter. They might need it to deliver Eircodes, but that's a different question.

By the way there was a newsletter from eircode during the week, saying it's all going ahead in July, with some business briefings this month.

But that's the exact reason we have Eircode.
You said that postie knows were Joe Bloggs, The Bog, Bogtown lives, but what if postie is off? What if the letter is addressed to Jimbo Jones, Joes friend who is staying there for a few weeks? What if Joe only moved in last week? What if the address is mangled?
Yes we DO need Eircode and it HAS to be individual, due to the nature of the Irish address system. If Joes postcode described the general area he was in, it would be useless, because the town land does that. Is there a number in the door? No.
So Eircode fulfills the function of a postcode and house number at the same time.
It just works.

plodder

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

But that's the exact reason we have Eircode.
You said that postie knows were Joe Bloggs, The Bog, Bogtown lives, but what if postie is off? What if the letter is addressed to Jimbo Jones, Joes friend who is staying there for a few weeks? What if Joe only moved in last week? What if the address is mangled?
Yes we DO need Eircode and it HAS to be individual, due to the nature of the Irish address system. If Joes postcode described the general area he was in, it would be useless, because the town land does that. Is there a number in the door? No.
So Eircode fulfills the function of a postcode and house number at the same time.
It just works.

Sure. I've always said it's a pragmatic solution to that particular problem. Doesn't mean we can't discuss potential problems that it causes, or possible solutions to those problems.

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

By the way there was a newsletter from eircode during the week, saying it's all going ahead in July, with some business briefings this month.

Really? I didn't get it, did it have any mention of the navigation product? I emailed them and was told that their next newsletter would more than likely include the details of the digital mapping product they are working on.

Sam Russell

The solution is obvious.

Give everyone a unique address.

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

The solution is obvious.

Give everyone a unique address.

That's a lot more complex than trying to deliver a unique code to every home to be fair

Sam Russell

ukoda wrote: »

That's a lot more complex than trying to deliver a unique code to every home to be fair

But they could make a start. They certainly could give house numbers to those addresses that have street names, like that bog standard house at Gorse Hill in Killiney.

Why throw your hands in the air saying it is impossible to give unique addresses but think delivering a random numbered Eircode to those same non-unique addresses is a doddle.

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

But they could make a start. They certainly could give house numbers to those addresses that have street names, like that bog standard house at Gorse Hill in Killiney.

Why throw your hands in the air saying it is impossible to give unique addresses but think delivering a random numbered Eircode to those same non-unique addresses is a doddle.

My hands aren't in the air at all, it's just not their mandate to do that, "no one will have to change their address" is one of the postcodes requirements is all in saying, creating unique addresses is a job for An Post and I was just pointing out it would be a lot harder to to than disseminating a code

plodder

There wasn't much information in it. Here's the text:

Dear customer

Eircode, Ireland’s new postcode system, will launch this July.

Following the success of the briefings which took place in May, we are now holding two further sessions in central

Dublin this June. Register now to find out more about Eircode and the benefits for your business.

The briefings will run for 45 minutes and will provide an update on the Eircode project, outline the Eircode

database products available and provide pricing and licensing updates. Following the session, you will also have

the opportunity to ask any questions.

We hope you can join us for an early morning briefing on one of the two dates available:

Monday 15th June

Tuesday 23rd June

Register to secure a place by 13th June here:

Click here to register for an Eircode briefing session

If you have already attended one of our briefing sessions and feel it may be of benefit for one of your colleagues to

join, please feel free to pass this invitation onto them.

For more information about Eircode for business, please visit our website at www.eircode.ie/business or email

sales@eircode.ie and we will be happy to help you.

We hope to see you soon!

dr.fuzzenstein

plodder wrote: »

Sure. I've always said it's a pragmatic solution to that particular problem. Doesn't mean we can't discuss potential problems that it causes, or possible solutions to those problems.

Agreed, of course.

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

There wasn't much information in it. Here's the text:

Anyone go to one of these briefings? Assume we could ask our questions at them

I might register if I get the email

Bayberry

plodder wrote: »

I don't see why they would need such a database for delivering normal mail (which isn't to say that they don't have one). They certainly don't need one for the 70% of unique addresses and for the 30% of non unique addresses, the name just needs to be on the envelope, and the postman uses it to route the letter.

They probably don't need it for 99% of mail, but An Post also makes an effort to deliver badly addressed mail, and a record of what address a particular name is associated with would be helpful in that regard, so I'd be surprised if the OCR process doesn't have some capacity for recognizing names as well as addresses.

Maybe I'm just imposing 2015-Big Data biases on a system that was designed back when te technology didn't necessarily make such choices as straightforward as they are now.

TheBustedFlush

National mailings to every household have been done plenty of times before. So for 65/70% of them, delivering the right letter to the right address is not a difficulty. That's the easy bit.

Reading the wording in the legislation that someone outlined above indicates that it will allow An Post to use its own internal database information to deliver the remaining 30/35% of letters - they will have to use names to distinguish the non-unique addresses - there is no getting around this. Any other method or approach would be too prone to error and too difficult to verify.

The wording of the legislation points to allowing this to happen for a very specific exercise - the "dissemination' of a postcode. It can't be used for anything else which is interesting.

Use of this names database, and the usual walk-sorting routines that An Post does, will solve the issue of delivering the correct postcode to the correct address - although it will inevitably take more time than usual to make sure it's done correctly - probably 3-4 weeks in total.

A July start date is inevitable at this point since the legislation has still not been put through the Dail, and been passed. Without legislation, therefore, the mail out can't be done. It also follows that without data privacy legislation, no-one can receive licences, copies of the database, or even the routing keys, or allow any bit of the project to move forward which would explain the lack of information up to now.

In my view, getting the legislation passed is absolutely project-critical. If it's not, nothing can proceed. No doubt, opposition - inside and outside the Oireachtas - is keenly aware of this.

yuloni

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TheBustedFlush

yuloni wrote: »

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Well I could be wrong but how else would you interpret this wording:

para 65A (2)

(c) The dissemination (including through the processing of personal data controlled by An Post, a universal service provider or such person as the Minister considers appropriate), on behalf of either the postcode contractor or the Minister, of a postcode to its corresponding address by An Post, a universal postal service provider or such other person as the Minister considers appropriate

yuloni

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TheBustedFlush

ukoda wrote: »

http://jrnl.ie/2143603

Probably off topic but I think it's brilliant, fair play to An Post


I guess maybe it also answers the question of An Post will deliver mail with just an eircode, seems likely if they are willing to solve a jigsaw and crossword just to deliver a letter!!

yuloni wrote: »

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Some of the methods were very clever.

yuloni

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Trouwe Ier

Well I think that the Dáil resumes on Tuesday, 9th June and according to the Oireachtas website, the sequence (from the second stage) is as pasted below.

Although it is not a long bill, there's a lot to do before July and I would be pleasantly surprised if they started to post out the flyers from mid-June.


Second Stage: whether the law should be amended as broadly envisaged in the Bill

The House discusses what the Bill contains and also what might be relevantly included.
Debate takes place on a motion:
"That the Bill be now read a second time".
Individual speaking times are limited
The proposer may also reply to the debate;
other members may speak once only
Restriction on amendments which can be moved:
Amendments are to the motion only, not to the text of the bill and may be related to time (postponing the second reading to a later date), or
To reason (giving a reasoned argument against the second reading)
Third (Committee) Stage: detailed examination and improvement of what is proposed

Detailed consideration of the Bill section by section,
either in:
Committee of the whole House or
Select Committee or
Special Committee.
In case of the Dáil, Select Committee is the norm.
There are 12 legislative committees in the 30th Dáil.
Relevant amendments may be made to the Bill.
Amendments which are not relevant may, however, be made if the House has given an appropriate instruction to the committee.
Members may speak more than once on each question (i.e. on each section or amendment) but the proposer usually replies.
Fourth (Report) Stage: a review of changes made at Third Stage

Consideration is limited to amendments tabled which arise from proceedings at Third Stage.
Members may speak only twice on each amendment, the second contribution being limited to 2 minutes;
The proposer of an amendment may reply to the debate.
The Bill may be recommitted as a whole or in respect of certain sections or amendments only. This removes the restrictions mentioned above.
Fifth (Final) Stage: whether the Bill, in its current form, would constitute good law

Debate takes place on a motion "That the Bill do now pass".
The proposer may also reply to the debate;
Other members may speak once only.
The Bill, if passed, is then sent to other House
Typically from Dáil to Seanad, and second, third, fourth and fifth stages are repeated.

Amendments made by Seanad to Bill initiated in Dáil

Amendments made by the Seanad are considered in Committee of whole Dáil.
Amendments may be accepted, rejected or amended or consequential amendments made.
The Committee's decisions can be reviewed by Dáil on report, and further amendments may be made.
The Dáil may agree Seanad amendments and/or
The Dáil may disagree with Seanad amendments and request that the Seanad does not insist on them, and/or
The Dáil may amend Seanad amendments, and/or
If the Dáil has made further amendments, the Seanad is asked to agree them.
Amendments made by Dáil to Bill initiated in Seanad

The Bill is deemed by virtue of Article 20.2.2 of the Constitution to be a Bill initiated in Dáil Éireann and is sent to the Seanad.
Consideration by the Seanad commences at Fourth (Report) Stage.
Enactment

As a general rule, the President is required to sign a Bill presented to him or her for signature not earlier than the fifth day or later than the seventh day after it has been so presented (Art.25.2.1).

A Bill becomes law on the day it is signed by the President and, unless the contrary intention appears, comes into operation on that day (Art. 25.4.1). A Bill may, for example, contain provision for its commencement (in whole or in part) by way of Ministerial order.