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National Postcodes to be introduced
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But it is already done - Loc8 Codes are it - they do not need Government to roll them out at all - if we left Google Maps to Government we would be still waiting!!!
Yeah, but it would still need go to out to tender.
I just hope they don't have some daft specs in the tender requiring the codes to be bilingual or something
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It will get implemented eventually alright, but there seems to be some problem or some vested interest at a high level in the public service which is benefiting from endless consultations instead of action.It seems like it's one of those things that will probably never get properly implemented.
As I remember it, Liz McManus of the labour party was vocal in support of the GPS based "unique identifier" location code system, but Minister Ryan of the greens was going with the older area based postcode idea that he inherited from his predecessor. Then just before he got turfed out, he wanted to superimpose a location code onto an area code.
Now that labour are part of the govt. they should be able to push for the location code, and now that IMF loans are paying for everything, a system that is already set up and working and is relatively free of maintenance costs would seem the most sensible option.0 -
Yeah, but it would still need go to out to tender.
I just hope they don't have some daft specs in the tender requiring the codes to be bilingual or something
But it is in tender - there have been 2 delayed and cancelled tenders since Jan 2010 - why? - because nobody has taken time to decide what its for and so far people have only thought about what it might look like.
Its hard to believe but after 6 years of talk the spec is what it was in 2005 - before Google Maps, SatNavs or Iphones were ever useable in the Irish market. Its like trying to reintroduce the internet in 2011 with the technology that was available in 2005 !!! Why are we trying to introduce 1960's technology at all? - That does not really make sense especially since even An Post say they do not need it!0 -
Well, I think even in 2005 we had a fair idea of what was on its way. GPS was already well established and Google Maps launched that year.
Mobile phone navigation was also there, it just wasn't as widespread until the iPhone, Androids and Nokia's Ovi Maps hit the mainstream.
Even in 2005, the notion of traditional postal codes made very little sense.0 -
It will get implemented eventually alright, but there seems to be some problem or some vested interest at a high level in the public service which is benefiting from endless consultations instead of action.
It feels like integrated ticketing all over again, PS making a mountain out of a molehill.0 -
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Neworder79 wrote: »It feels like integrated ticketing all over again, PS making a mountain out of a molehill.
Otherwise known as the "Irish way".0 -
Why are we even doing this?
Isn't the only reason that other countries have post codes was because their postal systems weren't advanced enough to read full addresses? Our system is good enough to do that and it works perfectly.0 -
Why are we even doing this?
Isn't the only reason that other countries have post codes was because their postal systems weren't advanced enough to read full addresses? Our system is good enough to do that and it works perfectly.
Exactly- postcodes were a 1960's invention to help sort mail - nowadays there are other technologies available for this purpose which An Post are already using. If any country was putting in a place a system to help sort mail nowadays they would not chose Postcodes. It would be like starting a new telephone infrastructure from scratch with copper instead of fibre!
Ireland does not need postcodes to sort mail - it needs some technology to help find places - answer: Internet, Phones, SatNavs, digital mapping and Loc8 Codes.
In 2005 when they designed a proposed postcode, they may have known about GPS and mapping (I told them) but they still designed a solution which would not work with them - they went for a database reference number system based on An Post operations (now changed) which if supported on a mobile device would need an expensive database loaded and routinely kept up to date and even then would only guide the user to the centre of an area which contained up to 50 properties. Get there and if you are not a postman you would have to ask directions to the right house which in rural areas could still be kilometres away - may be ok for sorting mail (if you needed such) but absolutely useless for anyone else trying to find places. On Tuesday last I had an email from a guy in a factory in Limerick where there was a medical emergency that morning and the Ambulance got lost and ended up 5km away - the 2005 postcode proposal will not solve this problem and, even worse, people's postcodes would have to change regularaly as An Post operations change or rationalise with mail volume contraction and as new buildings are added.
Yet DCENR are still trying to put this through - why? - someone in there thinks it will make An Post more efficient - even though An Oireachtas report has told them otherwise. It seems that Pat Rabbitte is forcing a reappriasal and the open tender is stalled but 6 years are gone by - ambulances are still going to the wrong places putting life at risk ( will become even a bigger problem when ambulances have to cover even wider areas with A&E closures) and tourists give up trying to find places they want to see.
That's why Loc8 Codes were designed and implemented and are already in use - daily people exchange stories about how Loc8 Codes help them find places, tourists from USA/UK/France etc etc email asking for Loc8 Codes for places and on blogs some threads have contained the Loc8 Codes of recommended parking spaces when going to Thomond Park for a match! The state has been saved a lot of money and no need to waste any more time or money talking about it.0 -
Well, I think even in 2005 we had a fair idea of what was on its way. GPS was already well established and Google Maps launched that year.
Mobile phone navigation was also there, it just wasn't as widespread until the iPhone, Androids and Nokia's Ovi Maps hit the mainstream.
Even in 2005, the notion of traditional postal codes made very little sense.
They knew about the potential cos I told them (on record) but it was not until mid 2006 that detailed road mapping for Ireland appeared on mainstream navigation devices - Navteq provided the first suitable dataset. Phones did not support mapping - just PPC devices which were notoriously clunky.
Therefore the Irish market was not experiencing the benefits and potential in 2005 or 2006 and the people who designed the postcode at that point did not have any navigation or GPS/Mobile device experience - check out the postcode Project board - civ servants, post people and bulk mailers and advised by consultants whose experience was in the mail sorting business - its like a semaphore expert being asked to a design mobile phone service or even like asking a homing pigeon to design text messaging!
I rest my case!0 -
Take a look at what An Post thinks about the Postcode which is officially proposed for Ireland as reported by PA consulting in their report on the matter:
An Post highlighted the following “non-quantifiable” risks during the An Post consultation process. An Post assesses all the risks listed below as being high-probability “and” high impact:- Decrease Quality of Service
- It is likely that the performance of the technical infrastructure (OCR and Video Coding machines) will be impacted for significant period of time with an impact on the mail read rate.
- Customers’ take-up will significantly impact its operation as it will be a source of error for mail processing and mis-sort. As a result this operational costs (manual sorting) will increase.
As presented above, An Post believe that it is likely that the introduction of postcodes will impact the current read-rates. There are two types of impact:- Increased manual sorting costs;
- Increased costs for Discounted Mail Customers (reduced discount) that will probably lead, in a market deregulation context, to a decrease in the number of customers and a decrease in revenue.
An Post stated that the implementation of postcodes and the associated on-going management are a source of additional costs that would probably need to be financed through an increase in stamp price (for regulated services). Again, in a market deregulation context, An Post may see their revenues and market share impacted (depending on the price-elasticity).- Impact of market competition and market deregulation in 2009
· An Post is in a very unique position in relation to postcodes. Having already invested in the implementation of a hidden coding system, An Post has been unable to identify any benefit that would arise from the introduction of a national public postcode system. An Post has stated through the stakeholder consultation process that it would incur costs to implement the new coding structure and the associated changes; the transition to a new postcode system may have an impact on the quality of service offered to customers; and customers ability to access ‘machine’ mail discounts may be an issue during transition. An Post has estimated their costs to be in the order of €37m for initial implementation with an annual cost beyond that of €7m. There is clearly a need for a more detailed understanding of these estimates in advance of implementation as, while An Post have been very supportive throughout this project, it is clear that if it is to embrace the introduction of the new system a solution to its costs and other exposures will need to be found. When the An Post estimated costs are included in the net present value, the position over 15 years becomes, i.e. -€83m.
This report is very clearly saying that An Post do not need postcodes and the total cost to the state of a postcode introduction will be €87 million and most definitely not the €15million that we hear DCENR and Ministers putting about.
And in a related Presentation An Post's Commercial Director Derek Kickham stated: [FONT=Arial,Bold][FONT=Arial,Bold][FONT=Arial,Bold]
"PostCodes are the application of 1960’s technology to a 21st Century Problem"[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
Of course not to mention the fact again that An Oireachtas Committee Report on Postcodes published in April last year also very firmly criticised these proposals
So it is very clear from all the experts that for mail sorting Postcodes are not required and they would cost the state more that they would benefit it - probably the reason why finally Pat Rabbitte has put the plans on hold since he took over in office.
However, for everything else other than sorting mail (finding places) some solution is required - the solution is already in place and called Loc8 Codes and because it is not related to Mail, the state does not need to be involved at all!0 -
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I don't really see what this has to do with An Post other than people insist on calling what are geolocation codes "post codes"
The Department of the Environment or Department of Communication should pick a system, roll it out. Simply require that people use it on any addresses. It could be dispatched quite simply by a team of people like census enumerators going from property to property with a GPS unit and dropping post cards in doors.
An Post can choose to use it or ignore it as it wishes. It certainly should not cost them anything to introduce.
I'm sure it would be quite easy to programme their OCR sorting machines to ignore any string of text after the postal town.
I don't think it should be imposed on them as it might cost them money in the short term.
I don't really see why An Post even has to be involved at all. They seem to be totally against the idea of any form of geolocation codes.
If they see an advantage in opting into using the codes, then they can start using them sort mail.
It's entirely up to them!
The people who need these codes are mostly delivery companies, couriers, taxis, emergency services, utility companies, planners, tourists, members of the public etc etc..
An Post's sorting system's really irrelevant to this debate, yet it keeps being dragged up.
An Post clearly expressed no interest in post codes and has no need for them, so in that case, I think they should be told to butt out of the debate and a system rolled out without them.
If they want to carry on with their own system, I don't really see why that should hold the rest of the country back.
I would suggest that most logical solution would be to get Comreg to roll it out and manage it as a national, neutral resource like telephone numbering.0 -
Postcodes can't be owned and licensed by any particular companies. We have to have ownership of our own addresses and we have to be able to invent and convert postcodes as we choose.
I've spent the afternoon today proposing an algorithm for a very simple but effective openpostcode for the country.
I think it proves that the government would be simply taken for a ride by private companies if they pay for a postcode format.
tinyurl.com/openpostcode
I would sincerely like feedback and any ****-hot web programmers and Google APIers out there want to help open it up further - get thinking.0 -
I think something like this would make a lot of sense. An open code that can be used by anyone without requiring expensive licenses.
That would mean that it could easily be incorporated into any mapping system, GPS devices, etc etc and would probably achieve widespread adoption very quickly.
I really think the debate needs to be turned into something on a geo-location code that is open and usable by anyone who needs it. I don't really understand why An Post is being dragged into the debate at all when it really has nothing constructive to contribute to it and does not even envisage any need for such a system.
This should be done as a simple, open source, publicly available project that is managed through Comreg.
Comreg are the obvious choice as they already regulate the postal sector, but they also provide management services for telephone numbering and radio frequency spectrum etc etc.
There would be very little / no management involved in such a system anyway as there is no database.
Rolling it out would really only involve advertising its existience and encouraging people to use it and perhaps giving people codes by calling at homes with a GPS.0 -
You are going to need a database of addresses or properties.
If there is no database, the system will not really work. You will just have to build a database on top of it anyway. The codes themselves will have to be derived from an existing database. All you are doing is adding an intervening coding system which doesn't serve any clear purpose.
It will not mesh with the current address system.
It will be of limited or no use for checking addresses, rating items or services or for delivering consignments (except by reference to another database). Every delivery point having a large number of codes will also cause confusion.0 -
It is up to users to build and maintain their own databases. An Post can convert their geolocation database to these codes in about 2 minutes. So can anyone else in the country. The codes are just as easily reversible back to coordinates. There are many reasons for a postcode - post office is just one. I for one look for for one that means that the next time my house goes on fire I don't have to waste time giving very very very complicated instructions to the fire service as the house continues to burn.0
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iantheteacher wrote: »Postcodes can't be owned and licensed by any particular companies. We have to have ownership of our own addresses and we have to be able to invent and convert postcodes as we choose.
I've spent the afternoon today proposing an algorithm for a very simple but effective openpostcode for the country.
I think it proves that the government would be simply taken for a ride by private companies if they pay for a postcode format.
I would sincerely like feedback and any ****-hot web programmers and Google APIers out there want to help open it up further - get thinking.
But this is already available in a more robust validteable, industry field tested & conatenated format??
A Loc8 Code is a 7 character code giving +/- 6 m absolute accuracy except that it has an 8th character added to self check itself - a must for satety critical services - it does not use I or O and is a rules based solution which means it can be validated by the deploying software - validation is vital to seperate a random selection of characters from a genuine thrustworthy coding system. The rules ensure that the resulting code always results in a predicatable and testable way - based on the requirements of the specification. It is notable that you have chosen to copy the dash seperators used in Loc8 Codes - not used in any post code or similar before.
The random character results of a simple algorithm are easily achieved but making the result stand up to rigorous rules and requirements to satisfy a user needs specification is a whole different ball game.
Normally those designing a system start with a specification - once again I highlight that every time a postcode is mentioned someone contributes what it should look like but rarely what it is designed to do and what requirements it satsifies. The specification and requirements that Loc8 Codes satisfy are well documented and field tested. Especially Loc8 Codes are not delivered with Google Maps which has no consistency of resolution across the country and has well documented position shifts in the mapping - definitetly not the stuff that +/-6m absolute position accuracy is made of!
Delivering a code that can be relied upon needs funding & investment, field testing, professional standard mapping, industry partnerships and the finances to ensure an ongoing service and guaranteed support. Loc8 Codes have all this in place but the 160 thousand people that have generated Loc8 Codes for their properties and the thousands of businesses that have their own Loc8 Code on their website did not have to pay a single cent at all!0 -
The dash is irrelevant - it could just as easily be a stop or just 7 characters in a neat row. There's nothing unique to a loc8code about the dash. American zip codes use it. Phone numbers use it. It is the punctuation mark appropriate to separation of syllables of data.
The proposed openpostcode says nothing about Google. It is calculated from GPS coordinates, same as loc8code and gocode; get your coordinates whereever you like - from your satnav, from Google, from an engineer, or from www.osi.ie.
You mention that loc8codes are field-tested, reliable, and so on. To be honest I don't get the problem here. A code isn't going to lie to someone - however when an algorithm for producing the country's postcodes is closed source and something that the community or developers cannot verify, then that is a problem.
You mentioned that individuals have calculated loc8codes for free. But tell me, what if I want to post a website with the loc8codes of all the petrol stations in Ireland, or all the cinemas, or all the hospitals; is that free?
Is it free for me to create a program to generate, convert and validate loc8codes? Is it free for me to take my address database and geolocation data and convert it all to loc8codes.
Eh, no. It isn't.
Loc8codes can do a fine job - but in the meantime for those of us who don't have the money to spend on licences and would like to live in a world where the postcode wasn't owned by someone else; there's an alternative.
The openpostcode is a proof of concept. The maths is trivial. It doesn't take government commission and endless reports and private profit making companies to give me an effective postcode.
An Post already use a geolocation database which works well for them. So, perhaps the rest of us might get a chance to have the same benefits. And the next time I have a 999 emergency I don't nearly have to draw a map for the firemen!0 -
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iantheteacher wrote: »get your coordinates whereever you like - from your satnav, from Google, from an engineer, or from www.osi.ie.
A code isn't going to lie to someone -
You mentioned that individuals have calculated loc8codes for free. But tell me, what if I want to post a website with the loc8codes of all the petrol stations in Ireland, or all the cinemas, or all the hospitals; is that free?
The openpostcode is a proof of concept. The maths is trivial. It doesn't take government commission and endless reports and private profit making companies to give me an effective postcode.
An Post already use a geolocation database which works well for them. So, perhaps the rest of us might get a chance to have the same benefits. !
I can see you have not really thought this through so!
As for posting details of locations on a website - I think you should really ask the owners of the locations what they want.
As I said no ordinary user of Loc8 Codes pays any license fee
On the other hand however every taxpayer pays for teachers all the time whether they are actually doing their job or toying with unrelated matters. Interesting to hear that you do not approve of "profit making companies" - I guess its just as well your job does not depend on one!0 -
Ya, I've thought it through alright. Proof of concept at http://tinyurl.com/openpostcode.
I approve of profit making companies: just not profit making companies owning my address.
What if I were to create a website with the location of every mountain peak in the country? Would I need to ask permission? But hey, I'd still need to pay loc8code a license for the right to use theirs.
As to teachers and doing other things. As I said, the maths was trivial. I teach technology and management of information system for business - it was very relevant. And this despite the fact that it's July and I'm on holidays. I'm just that good!
There is no need for the postcode of the country of Ireland to be owned by a private company. There is no need for the postcode of the country to be closed-source.0 -
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iantheteacher wrote: »A proof of concept LibreOffice spreadsheet is available at http://tinyurl.com/openpostcode
Quite impressive alright.0 -
Postcodes made from co-ordinates (or the Irish grid) are about as useful as a chocolate teapot for the purpose of delivery *organisation* which is where the huge savings are to be made for logistics firms.
A set of co-ordinates or a postcode generated from them only tells you where someone is - generally something the last hop delivery person actually already knows in Ireland.
A properly designed postcode system is overlaid on the actual road and topographical layout of an area to ensure that deliveries can be batched, and with a proper proximity database, can avoid the massive wastes of time, money and fuel that happen when, for instance, packages get bounced between Mullingar and Boyle (hypothetical here) a few times because of an "Athlone Co Roscommon" postcode that neither depot will accept for delivery.
An Post's huge objection to the introduction of a system is because they already HAVE this via Geodirectory whereby they have effectively got a shadow set of postcodes laid out by their delivery route and it gives them a competitive advantage over courier companies (which only helps to slightly offset the fact they can't compete on price due to being a USO operator) who don't.0 -
As I said no ordinary user of Loc8 Codes pays any license fee
Or in other words Loc8 codes are not free
I pointed out that loc8 codes rely on google maps which are often wrong at ladt 6 months ago, and still I can't enter an address and get a loc8 code for it.
What Ireland needs is an addressing system, not a postcode or a geolocation system.
Geolocation derived from lat/long. co-ords is just an encoding issue.
Postcoding is not needed as An Post can do that.
Addressing is what is needed.
France uses a 5 digit postcode, where the first two digits are for the department or county and the next 3 are pretty much used for the town or village ( commune)
But they have a definite planning of new roads and streets and these are named and sites numbered in urban areas by the planning parts of the local authorities and published and mapped.
A big issue here is the laziness of delivery services and others who refuse to get the paper maps which are originally from the 1800's and have all buildings marked on them. Just cos the multinational mapping services wouldn't bother their wholes digitising the original OS and updating from there til 2005 or so doesn't mean there were no maps. The original OS maps were public domain then.
The planning authorities have a big issue to deal with not having publicly accessible maps showing development since '67 or before. Also not imposing a rigid system of unique street/road names has an impact.0 -
Carawaystick wrote: »Or in other words Loc8 codes are not free
I pointed out that loc8 codes rely on google maps which are often wrong at ladt 6 months ago, and still I can't enter an address and get a loc8 code for it.
Geolocation derived from lat/long. co-ords is just an encoding issue.
Postcoding is not needed as An Post can do that.
Addressing is what is needed.
France uses a 5 digit postcode, where the first two digits are for the department or county and the next 3 are pretty much used for the town or village ( commune)
A big issue here is the laziness of delivery services and others who refuse to get the paper maps which are originally from the 1800's and have all buildings marked on them. Just cos the multinational mapping services wouldn't bother their wholes digitising the original OS and updating from there til 2005 or so doesn't mean there were no maps. The original OS maps were public domain then.
The planning authorities have a big issue to deal with not having publicly accessible maps showing development since '67 or before. Also not imposing a rigid system of unique street/road names has an impact.
There are several problems with this debate (which has the same points thrown up and answered regularly)
1. People do not read the background to the subject/thread/discussion and try understand what is being said - Loc8 Codes are not based on Google Maps - 2 ways - one they are derived from pure coordinates Geographic or Grid and two Loc8 Codes licenses the use of OSI and OSNI mapping so that there is consistency of map detail across the whole island. Google is only used as a backup. On mobile devices Google may be used but Loc8 Codes generated there have no stars(quality status)
2. Again i say constantly that people seem to only concern themselsves with how the code looks - not what it does - if you want a 5 character code like in France - fair enough but it will not guide you to anyone's door - France has good street addressing and property numbers - we don't and that will not change so we cannot use that system. It is same with the UK system - 6/7 characters in the postcode but then a property number is needed also to identify the exact location - this could mean up to 9/10 characters and the code has to change with development. Loc8 Code is 7+1, never has to change and addresses never have to change to make it work.
3. People get hung up on the idea that what we require is a postcode for delivering mail - we do not need that at all - we need something for finding exact locations and I'm afraid the idea of driving with a paper map on your lap is long since gone for commercial use - there are 400,000 commercial vehicles in Ireland and they use SatNavs smartphones etc - and whilst I am a trained land and marine navigator/surveyor and happy to use maps it is not very realistic for some idealist to suggest that people are not going to use modern technology to find places - a bit like suggesting that to make a call the drivers should stop at telephone boxes and forget theses new fangled mobile phone thingies. Drivers who do not use OSI mapping are NOT Lazy they are just busy and perhaps the people who are sending or odering the parcels are the lazy ones - here's my address good luck with finding it - its not my problem!! By the way - it may also be of interest that Maps do not contain postal addresses - they use physical addresses - big difference!
In addition Carawaystick if you are unable to get a Loc8 Code for your property through www.loc8code.com then there must be an issue on your side as Priests, Grandparents, children, shop owners, pensioners, B&B owners, GAA organisers, councillors etc etc all have manged to do so - I said the last time you raised this on here that if you are having a problem just simply talk to Loc8 Code direct - 021 4832990 or info@loc8code.com - they do not do support via boards.ie. They admit that they will be continuing to refine the map interface process but it does work - 160,000 people say so and the map interface is OSI and OSNI and if you are seeing Google then there is some delay in displaying the mapping through your browser - Google is used as standby but warnings about accurcay are clearly displayed and validation can only take place when OSI mapping is available. Once the map appears - there is no problem getting a Loc8 Code - its a simple process!
Finally Loc8 Codes are not just an encoding issue as you call it - no public code that people have to rely on could possibly established on that basis:
1. The coding must stand up to being tested and validated by delivery systems - it cannot just be a random set of characters as a result of a thrown together algorithm - there must be predictability and proven useability - serving designed-in minimum requirements.
2. There must be a delivery system which ensures a standardised and reliable source of the codes - codes coming from multiple sources will result in huge variations in quality.
3. There must be an invetsment in and committment to the future - otherwise all could disappear over night and someone else would have to start all over again from scratch (Loc8 is now around for 4 years at this point)
4. There has to be support from the industry - relying on hobbyisist in colleges around the country really is not enough to sustain a public solution - they may have to work at some point or get distracted with something they can make money from and as a result their effort may no longer be available.
Seems like you have an axe to grind with someone - but I am not sure who or why - certainly drivers will not be too happy with being called Lazy - perhaps you might want to rethink that one!0 -
Postcodes made from co-ordinates (or the Irish grid) are about as useful as a chocolate teapot for the purpose of delivery *organisation* which is where the huge savings are to be made for logistics firms.
A set of co-ordinates or a postcode generated from them only tells you where someone is - generally something the last hop delivery person actually already knows in Ireland.
A properly designed postcode system is overlaid on the actual road and topographical layout of an area to ensure that deliveries can be batched, and with a proper proximity database, can avoid the massive wastes of time, money and fuel that happen when, for instance, packages get bounced between Mullingar and Boyle (hypothetical here) a few times because of an "Athlone Co Roscommon" postcode that neither depot will accept for delivery.
You made this point before and got an answer from several people before - if you understand GIS, GPS, Route optimisation, SatNavs and related technologies already widely in use - once they have an exact destination (Loc8 Code) then using all the road data and routing capability they have then they can produce an optimised route. Sorry if you don't believe this but it is a fact - you are wrong I am afraid and constantly making the same point will not make it right!0 -
And what happens if a bridge is built over the river? Are the codes going to be refined to reflect that? If not then the system will be broken within a year. What do you do then, change the codes or just accept that this "main purpose" is useless?A coordinate system is a terrible idea for postcodes. People living in a rural area, on the opposite site of a river with no local bridge, for example, would be in the same postcode. Since one of the main purposes of postcodes is to group buildings for planning deliveries of post, this would obviously be unworkable.
An Post says they don't need it/wont use it for the purpose you are claiming is the prime one and companies like DHL, etc. have discovered yokes called computers and GIS (which will be provided with map updates every year and will be able to account for whether the connecting roads can take a large truck, for example). No modern company is going to do logistics and plan deliveries in the fashion you suggest.0 -
iantheteacher wrote: »Ya, I've thought it through alright. Proof of concept at http://tinyurl.com/openpostcode.
I approve of profit making companies: just not profit making companies owning my address.
What if I were to create a website with the location of every mountain peak in the country? Would I need to ask permission? But hey, I'd still need to pay loc8code a license for the right to use theirs.
As to teachers and doing other things. As I said, the maths was trivial. I teach technology and management of information system for business - it was very relevant. And this despite the fact that it's July and I'm on holidays. I'm just that good!
There is no need for the postcode of the country of Ireland to be owned by a private company. There is no need for the postcode of the country to be closed-source.
1. Nobody owns your address - but An Post owns the related recorded information and has been generating profit from it through GeoDirectory for many years. But then they take all the related costs - hence the need for profit!
2. If you want to use anyone's IP for which there is a copyright at least then you must ask permission - everyone automatically enjoys copyright and part of this is to allow them sustain maintenance of the solution they have produced. I hope you are making sure to teach your students about copyright, patent, IP etc etc and how to protect their ideas and respect those of others!
3. If you got permission to put the Loc8 Code of mountain peaks on the web - (first step is to ask I suppose) - then you may want to display them on OSI/OSNI mapping as Google will not have map detail for them all - then OSI rightly charge a license fee so this would be passed on in some agreed way. In addition and many do not seem to know this but if you did display on Google and it proved very popular then Google would charge you a license fee too!
4. If the maths was trivial why did you get it wrong?
5. I teach technology too and generate jobs doing so all year round!
6. Loc8 Code is not a postcode - a postcode is a 1960's technology used to group properties for mail sorting purposes.
No matter what system is in popular use some company has to maintain and promote it - there is a cost to this so there will always have to be some charge at some point to sustain the solution! The UK postcode took 50 years to get to 95% use - the cost of this was paid for through licensing. Even now that the UK "postcode has been freed" there is still a license fee to get access to exact delivery points (needed by delivery companies) and this pays to maintain the system. "Everything for free" is certainly a very noble idealistic notion but someone has to pay for it. You have produced an outline idea on a day on your holidays - great. If it is to become popular it must be relied on so maths must be right for a start but allowing it to be generated from multiple sources means multiple levels of accuracy=unreliability and therefore not useable by commercial organisations. An "ian" code generated from a misused GPS may be 10's of metres out. (believe me I am a GPS professional) This could mean an ambulance approaching a house from a motorway from which there is no exit rather than from a local road - in which case your code would become the "iany meany miny mo code". So you would then have to develop some standardised code delivery and maintenance methodologies - this is were the costs start to arise and related licences for commercial users must be introduced to pay for them - quality costs money!
Loc8 Code also started as an idea more than 5 years ago. However that idea has had to be developed quite a bit since then to get people and industry to use and rely on it. Over €1m has been invested my me and other parties in it to get it to this point - it is not just a random collection of characters spat out from some simple algorithm.
7. Enjoy your holidays!0 -
Mod!
Folks can we tone down the personal elements of this conversation. I don't really care if one poster is a teacher (or a IT professional in my case). It's not relevant to the topic.0 -
I just wish someone would get on with it...
About 10 to 30% of my post coming to my address in Cork City is incorrectly delivered because two streets have the same name. Its happening since an post moved to electronic sorting and I'm really sick of it!0 -
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You made this point before and got an answer from several people before - if you understand GIS, GPS, Route optimisation, SatNavs and related technologies already widely in use - once they have an exact destination (Loc8 Code) then using all the road data and routing capability they have then they can produce an optimised route. Sorry if you don't believe this but it is a fact - you are wrong I am afraid and constantly making the same point will not make it right!
I'm not wrong and you rattling off buzzwords isn't going to make that so. The "answers" I got were all from people trying to justify why *their* co-ordinate based system was what the state should adopt and nothing more.
Ireland has dreadful and outdated satnav mapping so anything which even tries to use this is going to be crippled. Navteq lag behind by years and Tele-Atlas have closed railways, rivers and sometimes hedgerows marked as roads in rural areas as they drew their maps off aerial photography.
If you could do this using satnavs, smaller logistics firms wouldn't be asking for there to be a postcode system now would they?0
This discussion has been closed.
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