National Postcodes to be introduced

Impetus

Victor wrote: »

There may or may not be merits to your argument. However, abuse is unacceptable.

Moderator

Head in the sand, re-invent the wheel. Every country in the EU has the same postal address structure, aside from GB and IE. This speeds up mail delivery because each element of the address is optimized for machine recognition.

While the British non-system is "half GCHQ" motivated, Eircode is dumbly designed for the benefit of GCHQ and NSA and everybody else who wants to steal our personal information motivated.

Impetus

The Eircode will be subject to massive code mis-recognition / process confusion with the British postcode worldwide . Britain's mail sorting system uses 40 year old technology. It has been programmed to "know" that postcodes beginning with "L" are in Liverpool. Not Dublin. And W postcodes exist in Cork - not just London. It is dumb in the extreme to use a semi-copy of the British system. Sorting equipment in most European countries is 10/15 years or less old. They are matched to the entire address - not just the postcode, to a database of valid addresses before sending the packet/letter on its way. Britain's mail sorting system is postcode based.

A postcode is a long term part of a country's infrastructure. It must be compatible with code systems used across the rest of Europe.

Eircode fails on every account.

ukoda

Impetus wrote: »

The Eircode will be subject to massive code mis-recognition / process confusion with the British postcode worldwide . Britain's mail sorting system uses 40 year old technology. It has been programmed to "know" that postcodes beginning with "L" are in Liverpool. Not Dublin. And W postcodes exist in Cork - not just London. It is dumb in the extreme to use a semi-copy of the British system. Sorting equipment in most European countries is 10/15 years or less old. They are matched to the entire address - not just the postcode, to a database of valid addresses before sending the packet/letter on its way. Britain's mail sorting system is postcode based.

A postcode is a long term part of a country's infrastructure. It must be compatible with code systems used across the rest of Europe.

Eircode fails on every account.

Oh for god sake. If you are sending mail to Ireland from overseas you write Ireland on it, the local postal operator sends it to Ireland and doesn't give a crap about the postcode, when it arrives here An Post take over and deliver the letter as normal.

Nothing will be confused. Different countries around the world have different but similar looking postcodes and there's no "mass confusion" get a grip on reality here.

Impetus

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Nobody is forcing you. But utilities, banks, registered letters, maybe employers, social welfare, local council, may insist on it, so you may not be able to completely avoid it.
But if you don't want to, no worries. Nobody is forcing you. People can be as awkward as they want. I can go to the shop and try to pay in pennies, I can refuse to give my name or phone-number to people, I can say my email is top secret it's a free country.

But again, isn't it funny how none of the naysayers seem to be interested to give their point of digital privacy? I wonder why...:D

Aber, Herr Fuzzenstein, if banks, registered letters etc have to have an Eircode, one has to think that those involved with same are motivated in the breach of privacy direction.

Ich habe kein Problem mit einer PLZ Typcode wie in Deutschland, Österreich, Schweiz, LI, etc. verwendet werden,

Impetus

ukoda wrote: »

Oh for god sake. If you are sending mail to Ireland from overseas you write Ireland on it, the local postal operator sends it to Ireland and doesn't give a crap about the postcode, when it arrives here An Post take over and deliver the letter as normal.

Nothing will be confused. Different countries around the world have different but similar looking postcodes and there's no "mass confusion" get a grip on reality here.

You sound like a Brit - "overseas". If I am writing a letter to an Irish address is just put the country code (ie "IRL" or "IE" before the town name.) I should put a postcode after the IRL or IE - but there is none. Overseas implies a far away place. One only has La Manche between IRL and the rest of Europe. The only nearby "overseas" place in an Irish context in GB -- ie the Irish sea.

SpaceTime

ukoda wrote: »

Oh for god sake. If you are sending mail to Ireland from overseas you write Ireland on it, the local postal operator sends it to Ireland and doesn't give a crap about the postcode, when it arrives here An Post take over and deliver the letter as normal.

Nothing will be confused. Different countries around the world have different but similar looking postcodes and there's no "mass confusion" get a grip on reality here.

Canadian Postal codes are very similar to the UK format and there's no issue.

They'll see IRELAND on the end of the address just like they see Canada.

Some postal administrations with lots of letters for Ireland, notably the UK may opt to incorporate the codes into their own pre-sort if that makes sense for them economically.

Also all countries in the EU do not use the same addressing systems. The Netherlands for example uses an alphanumeric code so house number + post code can find an address much like the UK. It's just a different structure to the British system.

I mean I assume they've coordinated this to some degree to avoid clashes and other EU countries have straight code clashes with 4 and 5 digit postcodes.

22000 in France could equally be 22000 in Spain or Germany.

Most other EU postal code systems are actually only the equivalent of eircode routing code. Rough sort to town / suburb and that's it.

This is very different as it's effectively turning a mailing address into a unique electronic address. That could actually end up having lots of interesting applications as time goes on.

Anything that reduces a GPS look up to keying a short code is going to be a huge deal as everyone is carrying online maps around in their pocket these days.

I'm not a fan of he lack of structure but all in all this system could work very well if it sees mass adoption.

I mean being able to call a taxi by just giving an eircode is going to be a huge leap forward!

Loc8 and others are just going to have to somehow integrate and become useful for providing ad hoc locations for everything else.

Impetus

SpaceTime wrote: »

Canadian Postal codes are very similar to the UK format and there's no issue.

They'll see IRELAND on the end of the address just like they see Canada.

Some postal administrations with lots of letters for Ireland, notably the UK may opt to incorporate the codes into their own pre-sort if that makes sense for them economically.

Also all countries in the EU do not use the same addressing systems. The Netherlands for example uses an alphanumeric code so house number + post code can find an address much like the UK. It's just a different structure to the British system.

I mean I assume they've coordinated this to some degree to avoid clashes and other EU countries have straight code clashes with 4 and 5 digit postcodes.

22000 in France could equally be 22000 in Spain or Germany.

Most other EU postal code systems are actually only the equivalent of eircode routing code. Rough sort to town / suburb and that's it.

This is very different as it's effectively turning a mailing address into a unique electronic address. That could actually end up having lots of interesting applications as time goes on.

Anything that reduces a GPS look up to keying a short code is going to be a huge deal as everyone is carrying online maps around in their pocket these days.

I'm not a fan of he lack of structure but all in all this system could work very well if it sees mass adoption.

I mean being able to call a taxi by just giving an eircode is going to be a huge leap forward!

Loc8 and others are just going to have to somehow integrate and become useful for providing ad hoc locations for everything else.

Modern sorting systems work on the entire address and match it to a database of valid addresses. The word "Canada" is meaningless. Similarly if you are flying to Zurich or Vienna, the baggage label will show "ZRH" or "VIE" with no mention of the country.

>>>22000 in France could equally be 22000 in Spain or Germany.

No it won't because the entire address is validated, not just the postcode as in the British non-system. If you claim to live at Bahnhofstrasse 299 at CH-8001 and the building numbering on that street goes up to 234, the item addressed to you will require manual validation, because something is wrong somewhere.

SpaceTime

Impetus wrote: »

Modern sorting systems work on the entire address and match it to a database of valid addresses. The word "Canada" is meaningless. Similarly if you are flying to Zurich or Vienna, the baggage label will show "ZRH" or "VIE" with no mention of the country.

>>>22000 in France could equally be 22000 in Spain or Germany.

No it wont' because the entire address is validated, not just the postcode as in the British non-system. If you claim to live at Bahnhofstrasse 299 at CH-8001 and the building numbering on that street goes up to 234, the item addressed to you will require manual validation, because something is wrong somewhere.

You've just reiterated my point...

I'm saying none of these horror story clashes will happen because they already don't happen with existing systems which have plenty of clashing codes. They'll sort by country and send to Ireland to be sorted by eircode.

The only possible exception to this might be the UK due to volumes which may use eircode to presort to Dublin, Cork and Athlone mail centres. Ireland actually very very easy to deal with as the population is small. An post is effectively 3 hubs nowadays. This might actually make overnight mail to and from British destinations more viable.

There would actually be no purpose in sorting items for them any more than that as all letters go to those hubs even if you post a local item.

That's how modern logistical systems work. Whole thing is automated and processing happens in bulk.

All La Poste sees is "Irlande" or "Irlande" or "Eire"

What causes serious confusion is the UK countries actually.

I've had items addressed to Belfast, Ireland which can cause things to go to An Post and be delayed.

They get there but they have to be reprocessed unnecessarily.

I've heard that just writing "Wales" can also result in some postal services delaying items as it's just not understood sometimes. I've a welsh friend whose has items with ENGLAND scribbled onto the end of the letter by a postal worker in the U.S. Or continental Europe !

A tiny bit politically sensitive.

dr.fuzzenstein

The Dara O'Briain principle kicks in.
"Just get it to Ireland, they'll know what to do with it!"
Again, you are worried about the NSA stealing your data? You are posting on the internet! Too late. They know who you are, where you live and that stuff you posted they're not at all happy about. Watch out for black helicopter hovering over your house, they don't need an Eircode.
Naive in the extreme. Better use the Tor browser.

SpaceTime

What would make sense would be to prefix the country with the telephone country code - easy to OCR and not politically charged.

Only odd ones you'd get would be USA and Canada that share one country code +1

Canada may have to adopt +998 at this stage

For example welsh TV channel S4C

S4C
Parc Tŷ Glas
Llanishen
CF14 5DU
44 Cymru / Wales

RTÉ
Domhnach Broc
Baile Átha Cliath 4
D04 X1Y2
353 Éire / Ireland

dr.fuzzenstein

Impetus wrote: »

Aber, Herr Fuzzenstein, if banks, registered letters etc have to have an Eircode, one has to think that those involved with same are motivated in the breach of privacy direction.

Ich habe kein Problem mit einer PLZ Typcode wie in Deutschland, Österreich, Schweiz, LI, etc. verwendet werden,

A: I just don't see it, maybe you could enlighten me as to how they can possibly steal any more data from me than they already can via my phone and laptop, a point STILL not addressed by you. As far as data privacy, you are utterly naked. Eircode won't make a difference.
So, for your homework, please write a very short dissemaination with no more than 3 points that clearly indicate Eircode's security issues.
And "It identifies my address" is not acceptable, that's what it's for

As for German PLZ style system, ready my comment containing the phrase "chocolate teapot" and "Pope's Balls".

Also, in general, if the letter says IRELAND in the address field, at least in Germany (and I would guess in any other country) the rest will be ignored and it goes straight to international shipping. So no other country will really give a sh*te about Eircodes, just as much as we don't care about PLZ here.

Impetus

Impetus wrote: »

....
The idiots in Eircode are still using county names - no other country on the planet uses county or province names in a mailing address.

Dumb, stupid, Oirish - Eircode.

err, All regional postal addresses in the UK use county names, but the postcode is based on the postal towns (towns with sorting offices).

Bayberry

Impetus wrote: »

no other country on the planet uses county or province names in a mailing address.

US addresses ALWAYS include the State abbreviation with the ZIP code.

dr.fuzzenstein

Bayberry wrote: »

US addresses ALWAYS include the State abbreviation with the ZIP code.

Friends in Germany always put Allgäu in the address. Doesn't matter if you do or don't. Will get there either way.

Bayberry

SpaceTime wrote: »

Maybe the postman may even just be able to assign a spare code to a new house on his/her route.

Now there's a recipe for abuse!

There's going to have to be a process to get codes for new buildings too. Ideally, that should be integrated into the planning permission.

This is one of the things that really creeps me out about eircode - there are all these obvious questions that should be clearly understood (by anyone that actually cares) long before eircodes are deployed - if only so that potential issues could be highlighted and addresses.

But we have this shambolic semi-secret process, where the secrecy seems to be driven as much by the commercial needs of eircode as the usual civil service aversion to public scrutiny ("Paddy like to know" my arse!).

Either Eircode has a plan for dealing with these delivery issues or they don't. If they do have a plan, what possible reason is there for not making that information available?

ukoda

Bayberry wrote: »

Either Eircode has a plan for dealing with these delivery issues or they don't. If they do have a plan, what possible reason is there for not making that information available?

It would be common for companies not to release details like this, I mean you don't see Samsung or Apple release details of how they will get stock to each store for a new launch, it's not what people care about (apart for us few on here) the key info that companies release is the when and the what, not usually the how

Bayberry

ukoda wrote: »

I think as soon as you are approved for planning permission ABP should liaise with eircode straight away to get a code created

Which will be useless unless everyone who needs to use them is paying for access to the main eircode database - any "offline" or 3rd party sources such as Google Maps won't know anything about these newly-assigned codes.

ukoda

Bayberry wrote: »

Which will be useless unless everyone who needs to use them is paying for access to the main eircode database - any "offline" or 3rd party sources such as Google Maps won't know anything about these newly-assigned codes.

Granted there maybe be a delay as its quarterly updates. The only point I'm making is to get the eircode issued asap once planning is issued.

Bayberry

SpaceTime wrote: »

Anything that reduces a GPS look up to keying a short code is going to be a huge deal as everyone is carrying online maps around in their pocket these days.

But Eircode doesn't reduce a GPS lookup to a short code - an eircode is a database key, the database entry contains GPS information, but it's not a symmetric match - every eircode has GPS information, but not every GPS location has an eircode!

I mean being able to call a taxi by just giving an eircode is going to be a huge leap forward!

Great for calling a taxi to your own house (is that much of a problem for anyone?), but not much use for telling the Taxi where you want to go from there.

Bayberry

SpaceTime wrote: »

I've heard that just writing "Wales" can also result in some postal services delaying items as it's just not understood sometimes. I've a welsh friend whose has items with ENGLAND scribbled onto the end of the letter by a postal worker in the U.S. Or continental Europe !

Back in the 80's I got a letter from the US that had a Tehran postmark on the back of the envelope .

I wish I'd kept it.

Bayberry

ukoda wrote: »

It would be common for companies not to release details like this, I mean you don't see Samsung or Apple release details of how they will get stock to each store for a new launch, it's not what people care about (apart for us few on here) the key info that companies release is the when and the what, not usually the how

Apple and Samsung are spending their own money, Eircode are spending our money.

ukoda

Bayberry wrote: »

Apple and Samsung are spending their own money, Eircode are spending our money.

Yes but my point still stands, it's not a common practice, regardless of the companies funding

Bayberry

ukoda wrote: »

Granted there maybe be a delay as its quarterly updates. The only point I'm making is to get the eircode issued asap once planning is issued.

Eircode may release quarterly updates - that doesn't mean that 3rd parties and offline sources will get those updates.

If the sole purpose of giving a location an eircode is to have a record of it's GPS coordinates, why not just make it a straight conversion, like Loc8? Other than to create a revenue generating opportunity of the "IP Rights Holders" of the eircode database?

There is only one situation where the eircode approach might be advantageous to the public (rather than to Eircode PLC) and that's if a business was allowed to keep the same eircode if it moved to new premises in the same locality. Does anyone know if this will be allowed - or is this one of the oher things that nobody at Eircode has thought of up to now?

Bayberry

ukoda wrote: »

Yes but my point still stands, it's not a common practice, regardless of the companies funding

Rolling out a national postcode isn't a common practice.

And I've found that many retailers are more than happy to tell you when they expect the next shipment of X to arrive in your local store if you ask them.

ukoda

Bayberry wrote: »

Eircode may release quarterly updates - that doesn't mean that 3rd parties and offline sources will get those updates.

If the sole purpose of giving a location an eircode is to have a record of it's GPS coordinates, why not just make it a straight conversion, like Loc8? Other than to create a revenue generating opportunity of the "IP Rights Holders" of the eircode database?

There is only one situation where the eircode approach might be advantageous to the public (rather than to Eircode PLC) and that's if a business was allowed to keep the same eircode if it moved to new premises in the same locality. Does anyone know if this will be allowed - or is this one of the oher things that nobody at Eircode has thought of up to now?

If companies are using eircode then they will be given the updates quarterly, this is definitely one of the things that eircode has on their website if you want to check it out

Also, we have been told that the eircode stays with the premises and not the occupant, so no, no one will be bringing their eircode with them.

Both of those things are public knowledge

And the sole purpose of eircode is not just to give a location a code. It's to assign a unique ADDRESS to each premises and also provide the geo coordinates for that premise. Like I've said before, having a postcode that doesn't validate an address against our national address database is a ridiculous idea.

ukoda

Bayberry wrote: »

Rolling out a national postcode isn't a common practice.

And I've found that many retailers are more than happy to tell you when they expect the next shipment of X to arrive in your local store if you ask them.

Yes but they don't tell you what route it will take and how the delivery driver will work out how to deliver the shipment

clewbays

Bayberry wrote: »

if a business was allowed to keep the same eircode if it moved to new premises in the same locality. Does anyone know if this will be allowed - or is this one of the oher things that nobody at Eircode has thought of up to now?

maybe they could bring the electrical wiring and fittings as well!

It would be disastrous if an Eircode was allowed to move address and similarly if a postman could allocate them.

An Post did not win the tender so I don't expect them to be allocating any Eircodes. The logical approach is to use GeoDirectory as the primary source for new updates and pay them a few bob for the service. Isn't that why LOS seemed so comfortable last November!

Bayberry

clewbays wrote: »

maybe they could bring the electrical wiring and fittings as well!

They can bring their phone numbers with them - why not their eircode?

It would be disastrous if an Eircode was allowed to move address and similarly if a postman could allocate them.

It's a Postcode without any intrinsic location information - what would be disasterous about it moving as long as it stayed within the same routing code?

Whatever about private houses, there's an argument for allowing a business to keep it's eircode if it's just moving to new premises in the locality.

ukoda

Bayberry wrote: »

They can bring their phone numbers with them - why not their eircode?
It's a Postcode without any intrinsic location information - what would be disasterous about it moving as long as it stayed within the same routing code?

Whatever about private houses, there's an argument for allowing a business to keep it's eircode if it's just moving to new premises in the locality.

This is crazy, sure why not just allow them take their whole address with them, they move to a different area but keep their address.

It's a ridiculous idea. They will have to change their entire postal address including their eircode when they move.

An address is an address. If you relocate you do not bring your address with you. You'd create an entire mess of a situation letting that happen.

The code is for the address. Keep it clean and simple like that

tvc15

Bayberry wrote: »

Whatever about private houses, there's an argument for allowing a business to keep it's eircode if it's just moving to new premises in the locality.

And whatever the topic, if it's Eircode you're against it