National Postcodes to be introduced

antoinolachtnai

The bill as proposed doesn't make anything an offence as far as I can see.

clewbays

ukoda wrote: »

Put the website live and start the media campaign, drive people to get their own code

That would ensure maximum take-up from the start :eek:

if the launch goes that way then just as well the National Ambulance Service is on board to provide some resuscitation

Bayberry

recedite wrote: »

True, but it will be a breach of existing data protection legislation to disseminate the eircodes in a working form, until such time as the new legislation amending data protection law has passed.

What aspect of existing data protection legislation is breached by diseminating the eircode assigned to 47 Greenbarn Road, KilSomething-or-other, Co County?

Or more to the point, disemminating the eircode that has already been assigned to the geo-cordinates 53.uvwxyz -7.abcdef (which just happen to be the geo-coords for 47 Greenbarn Road, KilSomething-or-other, Co County).

There is no personally identifying information in that.

recedite

There are fines of €3000 and €100,000 mentioned in the Data Protection Act for different kinds of breaches.

What this postcodes bill is proposing to do, is to make sure that eircode, itself, and also its operator, can't be blamed for any breaches that might happen later. It makes them exempt.

Then Colreavy is proposing to make it a specific offence for anyone to use eircode to perpetrate data offences. I think there may be a certain amount of overlap there; matching personal data/names to eircodes and disseminating those would still be a breach of existing data laws anyway, even without making it a specific offence. But now we are getting into legal grey areas, and perhaps he just wants to remove any doubt.

Bayberry

recedite wrote: »

OK, think about it.
How many people in this country 4 or 5 million? How many people per house?
How does that add up to 46 million addresses?

He didn't say 46 million addresses, he said 46 million records in various government databases. Lots of duplication.

And it'll never be streamlined, because of concerns about data privacy

antoinolachtnai

There are fines in the data protection act, sure, but in general you can only get this fine if you fail to comply with a notice from the data protection commissioner. There is no fine for a data protection breach per se.

There is no provision for a significant fine either.

You are right to say that the purpose of the Act is to allow eircode et al to do things that would otherwise be illegal or at the very least questionable.

recedite

Bayberry wrote: »

What aspect of existing data protection legislation is breached by diseminating the eircode assigned to 47 Greenbarn Road, KilSomething-or-other, Co County?

Or more to the point, disemminating the eircode that has already been assigned to the geo-cordinates 53.uvwxyz -7.abcdef (which just happen to be the geo-coords for 47 Greenbarn Road, KilSomething-or-other, Co County).

There is no personally identifying information in that.

Because somebody living at the address might try to use the eircode, or some govt. or outside agency might match them to the eircode.
At which point a link is created between the name and the GPS location of the persons home, and perhaps various other undisclosed info, which could lead to a breach of that person's data protection.
Which in the normal course of events might be blamed on the eircode, hence the exemption being created.

antoinolachtnai

Bayberry wrote: »

What aspect of existing data protection legislation is breached by diseminating the eircode assigned to 47 Greenbarn Road, KilSomething-or-other, Co County?

Or more to the point, disemminating the eircode that has already been assigned to the geo-cordinates 53.uvwxyz -7.abcdef (which just happen to be the geo-coords for 47 Greenbarn Road, KilSomething-or-other, Co County).

There is no personally identifying information in that.

The issue is the addressing of notification letters to non-unique addresses. An Post wants to use personal data it has in its database to make it clearer what house the letters are supposed to go to.

At least that seems to be what is going on. The whole thing is shrouded in secrecy.

recedite

Bayberry wrote: »

He didn't say 46 million addresses, he said 46 million records in various government databases. Lots of duplication.

OK. So just a meaningless statistic then. It could be one address duplicated 46 million times.

dr.fuzzenstein

recedite wrote: »

OK. So just a meaningless statistic then. It could be one address duplicated 46 million times.

The addresses were organised by Billie O'Dwyer, he left them all at home except one.

Bayberry

recedite wrote: »

Because somebody living at the address might try to use the eircode, or some govt. or outside agency might match them to the eircode.
At which point a link is created between the name and the GPS location of the persons home, and perhaps various other undisclosed info, which could lead to a breach of that person's data protection.
Which in the normal course of events might be blamed on the eircode, hence the exemption being created.

But houses already have addresses and geo-coordinates. If you're not in breach of DP regulations already, you won't be in breach of them by using an eircode as well as or instead of an address.

Or are you saying that Loc8 codes are illegal (or at least in breach or DP regulations), because they aren't going to be covered by this legislation?

recedite

Loc8 codes are user generated, and they are not mandatory. You will be required to give out your eircode for various kinds of official business.

I'm guessing for water charges, property tax, registering with PRTB and letting it out, obtaining a BER Certificate, getting mobile and landline phones, bank accounts etc..
Eircode is the unique identifier that will link all this info together.

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

Loc8 codes are user generated, and they are not mandatory. You will be required to give out your eircode for various kinds of official business.

I'm guessing for water charges, property tax, registering with PRTB and letting it out, obtaining a BER Certificate, getting mobile and landline phones, bank accounts etc..
Eircode is the unique identifier that will link all this info together.

My address is already unique
My phone number is already unique and links all those things you mention together
My information is already all in a database linked to geo's (any company that had my info and uses the Geo directory to verify my address, I can think of at least 3)

ukoda

ukoda wrote: »

My address is already unique
My phone number is already unique and links all those things you mention together
My information is already all in a database linked to geo's (any company that had my info and uses the Geo directory to verify my address, I can think of at least 3)

You may have a unique address, many don't, myself includes as I have the same address as about 20 others here, the phone number and name are required to ensure an exact match. Add to this the fact that there are at least three different variations of my address (and my neighbours).
So a universal unique address identifier will be a good thing, I'm astounded that such a concept is causing so much angst amongst some people.

Trouwe Ier

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm astounded that such a concept is causing so much angst amongst some people.

Me too: Those with nothing to hide have nothing to fear!

dr.fuzzenstein

Trouwe Ier wrote: »

Me too: Those with nothing to hide have nothing to fear!

And the con side has so far strenuously avoided addressing my points regarding online privacy. :rolleyes:
If they really were concerned about their data, they wouldn't have an internet connection, smartphone or laptop. With that they already have a unique IP, pointing directly at them and everything they do or say can be taken down and used against them. "Der gläserne Mensch", i.e. everything about them is already available, so if they are really concerned about their privacy, they'd have to get rid of all smart technology and their internet. Then all we have on them is their bank transactions and what they buy where.
Complete privacy in the 21st century is an utterly laughable concept.

Here's how you do it:
Live in a hut in the wilderness built without planning permission, only deal in bartering, but if you have to buy stuff, cash only. No bank account, no credit cards. You can't own a car, unless it is not registered to you and you don't appear in tax and insurance. Or maybe don't bother with those.
You cannot have a phoneline, electricity, water mains or connection to the sewerage system. All jobs have to be cash in hand, no paperwork. You can't be registered to vote, no TV license and make sure that all deliveries go to an anonymous postbox (already iffy) or a discreet neighbour. Maybe use an assumed name. Make sure the house is not visible from the air.
If you HAVE to have internet, use a prepaid, unregistered phone as a wifi hotspot or any open wifi system or just browse on the phone.

MBSnr

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

And the con side has so far strenuously avoided addressing my points regarding online privacy. :rolleyes:

The only issue I could see at present (that impacts me) is the likes of an on line webpage that could ask for your Eircode to show the closest 'X trade name' store to you - IE Woodies or Maplins etc. But then you'd have to ask, what would they do with this Eircode info anyway? As long as you didn't enter your name along with your Eircode directly, it's fairly meaningless to them. Would/could they pass this info to a 3rd party?

I suppose they might harvest these codes and send out flyers to 'The occupier' at Address ABC, Eircode AB1 WXYZ, as they know you have an interest in 'lawnmowers' or whatever....

Sam Russell

To combat that, get a valid Eircode for a local shop or business or something like that and use that.

MBSnr

Sam Russell wrote: »

To combat that, get a valid Eircode for a local shop or business or something like that and use that.

I would - the wider 'general public' might not think like us paranoiacs.

antoinolachtnai

MBSnr wrote: »

The only issue I could see at present (that impacts me) is the likes of an on line webpage that could ask for your Eircode to show the closest 'X trade name' store to you - IE Woodies or Maplins etc. But then you'd have to ask, what would they do with this Eircode info anyway? As long as you didn't enter your name along with your Eircode directly, it's fairly meaningless to them. Would/could they pass this info to a 3rd party?

They sell the information to an Internet ad network.

The ad network matches your eircode with your cookie.

This means that whenever you browse the Internet, the ad network will know where you live and what household you are a member of.

The ad network will then cross-check your eircode to find information about your household. This could be to find out specific things you have bought or done yourself, or general things about your row of houses.

The dsl or cable address you use to browse the internet from home can be used to identify other members of your household, who are browsing the Internet at the same time and who have ad network cookies. These other people can then be identified as living at or having a strong association with your household. They will still be identified as such even when they browse from mobile or from another location.

All of this is used to target advertising at you and members of your household.

dr.fuzzenstein

MBSnr wrote: »

The only issue I could see at present (that impacts me) is the likes of an on line webpage that could ask for your Eircode to show the closest 'X trade name' store to you - IE Woodies or Maplins etc. But then you'd have to ask, what would they do with this Eircode info anyway? As long as you didn't enter your name along with your Eircode directly, it's fairly meaningless to them. Would/could they pass this info to a 3rd party?

I suppose they might harvest these codes and send out flyers to 'The occupier' at Address ABC, Eircode AB1 WXYZ, as they know you have an interest in 'lawnmowers' or whatever....

Well, that's true.
My point was more like, everything you do or say online is already known to every security agency on the planet. Nothing to do with Eircodes. Even if Ireland doesn't care or collect data, Yahoo, Google, Facebook, Twitter, I could spend all day listing companies, they already hand over everything to the NSA, every bit of data is stored and if needed, is available for further analysis. Dunno about Boards well they seem to be fairly OK.
The only way would be to use a 3G/4G dongle, use "hide my ass" proxies or use the Tor browser, change your provider regularly (once a month or so), use an anonymous Gmail just for signing up to websites and otherwise use Proton Mail.
If you have THAT level of paranoia, you are perfectly right to worry about Eircodes. The question then is why are you so paranoid? But if you just turn on your computer and start surfing and chatting away, you are complaining about a dripping tap on the Titanic if you are worried about Eircodes. THAT is why all privacy arguments so far have been b o l l o c k s.

antoinolachtnai

If you accept that you have neither privacy, nor any legitimate right to it without taking extreme measures, that is fine. But that is not exactly a widely accepted view.

murpho999

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

They sell the information to an Internet ad network.

The ad network matches your eircode with your cookie.

This means that whenever you browse the Internet, the ad network will know where you live and what household you are a member of.

The ad network will then cross-check your eircode to find information about your household. This could be to find out specific things you have bought or done yourself, or general things about your row of houses.

The dsl or cable address you use to browse the internet from home can be used to identify other members of your household, who are browsing the Internet at the same time and who have ad network cookies. These other people can then be identified as living at or having a strong association with your household. They will still be identified as such even when they browse from mobile or from another location.

All of this is used to target advertising at you and members of your household.

Seriously ....you just worry too much.

dr.fuzzenstein

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

If you accept that you have neither privacy, nor any legitimate right to it without taking extreme measures, that is fine. But that is not exactly a widely accepted view.

The point is that anyone's view on internet privacy is irrelevant, it's like disagreeing with Thursdays.
Of course postcodes in Ireland would not come about if there was widespread opposition to them, but there doesn't seem to be.
My point is, and always has been, if your main privacy concern in life is Eircodes, you are complaining about a dripping tap on the Titanic.

Bayberry

recedite wrote: »

You will be required to give out your eircode for various kinds of official business.

So eircode is not going to be compulsory, you'll just be required to use it.

There's an adjective for that.

my3cents

Bayberry wrote: »

So eircode is not going to be compulsory, you'll just be required to use it.

There's an adjective for that.

If its part of your address and you don't use it then why should anyone bother delivering to you?

I think once everyone has been given their postcode all mail that doesn't use it should be delayed for a couple of days.

Bayberry

my3cents wrote: »

If its part of your address and you don't use it then why should anyone bother delivering to you?

I'm simply pointing out that the Minister thought it was important enough to state clearly that eircode wouldn't be compulsory. If you disagree with him, that's your business.

Bayberry

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/new-postal-location-code-system-to-be-launched-in-july-1.2250638

The new postal location code system will be launched in early July when 2.2 million homes and businesses in the State will be assigned individual codes, the Department of Communication has confirmed.

The new system, called Eircode, will become live immediately after the enactment of the Communications Regulation (Postal Services) Amendment Bill 2015.

The Bill is currently at Committee Stage and is expected to complete its passage through the Oireachtas by the end of the month with the launch date being provisionally set for July 6th.

However, in Dublin elements of the old postal codes will be retained. For example, the first three digits for Finglas will be D11 and for Phibsboro will be D07. The postal code of Dublin 6W will be D06W.
Eircode has accessed more than 100 million entries in 20 different databases to identify the 2.2 million addresses.

larchill

Looks like its going to happen so. Lets hope Enda doesn't call an election, or that the Shinners don't hold it up.

dr.fuzzenstein

Bayberry wrote: »

So eircode is not going to be compulsory, you'll just be required to use it.

There's an adjective for that.

Well, no one can force you to use it on a letter. If your address is Name, 13 Street, Town, County it probably won't make a heap of difference.
It might be different when dealing with government authorities, they will most likely require one and it will most likely be used in connection with tax, benefits, water, planning, TV license, etc... But they already have all your details, so it won't make a huge difference. Unless your address is nebulous and ambivalent enough to allow for all sorts of dodging and tomfoolery. Then Eircode could be quite an obstacle since it pinpoints your location without a doubt. I guess most of the more vociferous objectors may come from exactly that point of view.
Some private businesses may require it, such as banks, insurance, etc... but in that case you are also not forced to use it, they just won't do business with anyone unless he gives them their Eircode.