National Postcodes to be introduced

recedite

If you lived in the backwoods as a nomadic hunter gatherer, and never emerged from them, you would not need a passport, a birth cert, a PPS number or an eircode. So none of these are strictly speaking compulsory.
However I think we can all recognise when a politician is being disengenous and trying to hide something.
So it is, as eircode is launched and the Minister reassures everyone that it is "not compulsory".

my3cents

recedite wrote: »

If you lived in the backwoods as a nomadic hunter gatherer, and never emerged from them, you would not need a passport, a birth cert, a PPS number or an eircode. So none of these are strictly speaking compulsory.
However I think we can all recognise when a politician is being disengenous and trying to hide something.
So it is, as eircode is launched and the Minister reassures everyone that it is "not compulsory".

An Post are the final arbiters of your address so you have to use the address or one they will accept for your home. If in a year or so they say that your address must have the eircode then thats your address.

dr.fuzzenstein

my3cents wrote: »

An Post are the final arbiters of your address so you have to use the address or one they will accept for your home. If in a year or so they say that your address must have the eircode then thats your address.

Well, you don't have a choice as far as being assigned an Eircode goes, unless you live in an "unofficial" building.
As far as using it for postal deliveries, well, no-one can force you to use it, just as much as no one can force you to use your correct address, name or anything else in the address for that matter. If you live in a town and have a housenumber and street address, it probably won't even matter, if you live in the bog like I do, maybe more so.
But it is not compulsory to use your full, correct address on letters or parcels.
Of course this could cause inconvenience and delays or your post getting lost. And it's pretty certain that the people who refuse to use Eircode for postal deliveries for "privacy reasons" will then be absolutely fuming and will blame everyone else if it goes wrong, but there is no law to force them. If someone wants to deliberately do it the wrong way (i.e. putting diesel in a petrol car), he/she is free to do it.

ukoda

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Well, you don't have a choice as far as being assigned an Eircode goes, unless you live in an "unofficial" building.
As far as using it for postal deliveries, well, no-one can force you to use it, just as much as no one can force you to use your correct address, name or anything else in the address for that matter. If you live in a town and have a housenumber and street address, it probably won't even matter, if you live in the bog like I do, maybe more so.
But it is not compulsory to use your full, correct address on letters or parcels.
Of course this could cause inconvenience and delays or your post getting lost. And it's pretty certain that the people who refuse to use Eircode for postal deliveries for "privacy reasons" will then be absolutely fuming and will blame everyone else if it goes wrong, but there is no law to force them. If someone wants to deliberately do it the wrong way (i.e. putting diesel in a petrol car), he/she is free to do it.

Interestingly tho, they did say in that radio interview that a business may decide to make ericode mandatory, I.e. We won't do business with you without an eircode, then you would be forced to use it and the associated official address, of course you could always opt not to do business with that company, but if they all start to make eircode mandatory....

ukoda

ukoda wrote: »

Interestingly tho, they did say in that radio interview that a business may decide to make ericode mandatory, I.e. We won't do business with you without an eircode, then you would be forced to use it and the associated official address, of course you could always opt not to do business with that company, but if they all start to make eircode mandatory....

If any business does plan to only trade with customers who have provided postcodes, chances are that they won't make it a condition of sale until the adoption rate is over something like 90%. So they only lose a few "hold outs", customers who may also be problematic in other ways.

Bayberry

ukoda wrote: »

Interestingly tho, they did say in that radio interview that a business may decide to make ericode mandatory, I.e. We won't do business with you without an eircode, then you would be forced to use it and the associated official address, of course you could always opt not to do business with that company, but if they all start to make eircode mandatory....

That would be the "let's pay an annual fee to use eircodes so that we'll have an excuse to turn business away" strategy for success, would it?

The only business that's facing significant costs today due to the lack of a postcode system is the delivery and distribution Industry, and nobody in that industry is enthusiastic about eircode - the biggest player, An Post, has been quite clear that it doesn't need eircode, and won't be using it to deliver post, Nightline's attitude is luewarm at best, and everyone else is opposed.

ukoda

Bayberry wrote: »

That would be the "let's pay an annual fee to use eircodes so that we'll have an excuse to turn business away" strategy for success, would it?

The only business that's facing significant costs today due to the lack of a postcode system is the delivery and distribution Industry, and nobody in that industry is enthusiastic about eircode - the biggest player, An Post, has been quite clear that it doesn't need eircode, and won't be using it to deliver post, Nightline's attitude is luewarm at best, and everyone else is opposed.

Banking and insurance industry losing money on false claims from false addresses given.

People defrauding left right and centre with fake addresses or variations of the same address being used.

Bayberry

ukoda wrote: »

Banking and insurance industry losing money on false claims from false addresses given.

People defrauding left right and centre with fake addresses or variations of the same address being used.

The banking and insurance industry already have access to products that resolve variations in addresses - if they're not using them now, eircode won't make any difference, and if they are using them now, eircode won't make any difference.

Remember, there's nothing in the eircode database that isn't already available from An Post - after all, that's where eircode got it.

ukoda

Bayberry wrote: »

The banking and insurance industry already have access to products that resolve variations in addresses - if they're not using them now, eircode won't make any difference, and if they are using them now, eircode won't make any difference.

Remember, there's nothing in the eircode database that isn't already available from An Post - after all, that's where eircode got it.

there's nothing currently available to tell any company the difference between 35% of Irish addresses that are non unique. The geo directory is what you refer to but that doesn't cut it for the task. Trust me I know.

Trouwe Ier

ukoda wrote: »

there's nothing currently available to tell any company the difference between 35% of Irish addresses that are non unique. The geo directory is what you refer to but that doesn't cut it for the task. Trust me I know.

Three more troublesome townlands for me this week:

1) Kishyquirk aka Kishykirk.

2) Cahernorry, Drombanna aka Cahernorry, Ballysimon.

3) Garrienderk aka Garrynderk North or South.

Our customers did not need to be in for us and it would have made little difference if they were because their directions over the phone were so ambiguous as to be misleading.

Had we had a unique identifier and directional device, lots of time would have been saved. Like An Post, our service costs rocket out in tbe country and those costs are passed on to all our customers.

I had to give up on Kishykirk: no road signs, no-one to ask, back and forth across the train-busy level crossing at Kilonan Junction.

I've had it with ambiguous addresses in southern Ireland.

Few people will have heard of or remember 'alternative system' codes but all householders and businesses will receive a card with an Eircode.

How many of the objectors on this forum are engaged in service delivery?

dr.fuzzenstein

Bayberry wrote: »

That would be the "let's pay an annual fee to use eircodes so that we'll have an excuse to turn business away" strategy for success, would it?

The only business that's facing significant costs today due to the lack of a postcode system is the delivery and distribution Industry, and nobody in that industry is enthusiastic about eircode - the biggest player, An Post, has been quite clear that it doesn't need eircode, and won't be using it to deliver post, Nightline's attitude is luewarm at best, and everyone else is opposed.

Sorry, did reality just shift? Or was that just you?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/no-charge-to-households-for-use-of-new-eircode-postcodes-1.2007189

Liam O’Sullivan, mails operations director with An Post, said the postal service was fully committed to the new system, but that it would not be mandatory for people to add the post code to letters.
An Post will continue to deliver letters without the codes.

It just says they will deliver letters if they don't have Eircode on them, but An Post not using Eircode? Which parallel universe?

edit:
maybe just a typo

Bayberry

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

It just says they will deliver letters if they don't have Eircode on them, but An Post not using Eircode? Which parallel universe?

Postman Pat has a letter to deliver. The address on the envelope says

Jimmy McGabhan
Dunroamin
Dublin Road
Ballygobackwards
Co. Wherever
AB7-78FG

Is he going to look up the eircode, or is he just going to deliver it to the the same house as all the other post addressed to
Jimmy McGabhan
Dunroamin
Dublin Road
Ballygobackwards
Co. Wherever.

(Hint - this is a trick question!)

Bayberry

Trouwe Ier wrote: »

Few people will have heard of or remember 'alternative system' codes but all householders and businesses will receive a card with an Eircode.

And apparently, they'll stick in a frame next to the Pope and JFK, so that next year when you call them about that one off delivery, they'll remember where it is.

Bayberry

Bayberry wrote: »

Postman Pat has a letter to deliver. The address on the envelope says

Jimmy McGabhan
Dunroamin
Dublin Road
Ballygobackwards
Co. Wherever
AB7-78FG

Is he going to look up the eircode, or is he just going to deliver it to the the same house as all the other post addressed to
Jimmy McGabhan
Dunroamin
Dublin Road
Ballygobackwards
Co. Wherever.

(Hint - this is a trick question!)

Many of the postmen in the country won't need the read the second line, let alone the full address. The post code is more for non locals to find an address. The delivery driver would just use the postcode and look up the location on the eircode enabled map.

oscarBravo

Bayberry wrote: »

Postman Pat has a letter to deliver.

My postman doesn't need my eircode. He'll deliver my post anyway; hell, he's still delivering post sent to my previous address, which isn't on his round. An Post is not the primary driver here.

I got a phone call at 0840 this morning; yet another courier looking for directions. That's what will drive adoption.

My own business requires that I send drivers to widely dispersed rural houses, populated by people who couldn't give decent directions if they were on fire. That's what will drive adoption.

If you're determined not to use your eircode on a point of principle, bravo. I hope it gives you joy. But the idea that it's not useful simply because it's not useful to you is just a tad arrogant.

Bayberry

Deleted User wrote: »

Many of the postmen in the country won't need the read the second line, let alone the full address.

I was addressing the claim that An Post will be using eircode. They are "fullly committed" to providing (for a fee) all the information that they already use to deliver post to eircode, so that eircode can charge other people to access their database. If someone tries to mail a letter with only an eircode on it, An Post will process it all right - they'll look up the database and write the REAL address on te envelope so that it can be delivered by the local postman.

Bayberry

oscarBravo wrote: »

If you're determined not to use your eircode on a point of principle, bravo. I hope it gives you joy. But the idea that it's not useful simply because it's not useful to you is just a tad arrogant.

The point is that it's not as useful as a Postcode that actually met the recommendations of the Governments own post code commitee, it'll cost a lot more to implement than any of the obvious alternatives, and that it's possibly the worst possible way of implementing a solution for delivery/distribution purposes. The purported fraud-prevention application of eircodes won't be hindered to any great extent by the random nature of the codes (they're just PPS numbers for houses, after all), but for delivery/distribution purposes, it's so beyond stupid that it could only get off the drawing board in Ireland.

There's no shortage of arrogance in the eircode project, but it's not coming from the people who are pointing out that the emperor has no clothes!

clewbays

Bayberry wrote: »

Postman Pat has a letter to deliver. The address on the envelope says

Jimmy McGabhan
Dunroamin
Dublin Road
Ballygobackwards
Co. Wherever
AB7-78FG

Is he going to look up the eircode, or is he just going to deliver it to the the same house as all the other post addressed to
Jimmy McGabhan
Dunroamin
Dublin Road
Ballygobackwards
Co. Wherever.

(Hint - this is a trick question!)

This dilemma will occur all over Ireland every working day for another few weeks

Postman Pat has to decide whether the two Jimmy McGabhan's have the same letter-box. They don't have to be the same person to deliver both letters to the same letter-box. They could be father and son who are living in the same house. However he may know from one of the letter's that one of them is for Jimmy McGabhann whose cow had five calves in the Spring and that the other is the motor tax disc for another Jimmy McGabhan with the same address but who bought the new hiace!

So has anything changed with Eircodes. Well if Postman Pat is in the Algarve, Postman Dave can use the Eircode to deliver one of the letters and he can ask around the locality for who the letter without the Eircode belongs to.

What if they were parcels, has anything changed if FTAI were delivering them? No, both dropped off at Supermac's and the lads can collect them in their own time.

dr.fuzzenstein

Bayberry wrote: »

Postman Pat has a letter to deliver. The address on the envelope says

Jimmy McGabhan
Dunroamin
Dublin Road
Ballygobackwards
Co. Wherever
AB7-78FG

Is he going to look up the eircode, or is he just going to deliver it to the the same house as all the other post addressed to
Jimmy McGabhan
Dunroamin
Dublin Road
Ballygobackwards
Co. Wherever.

(Hint - this is a trick question!)

First of all, the Eircode will make sure Pat gets the letter in the first place and that it doesn't go to postman Mike, because there is also a Ballygobackwards in Co Whatever. Or as with my address two in the same county. What if Pat is off and Dave is doing deliveries this week and he doesn't know the area?
Maybe Jimmy only moved here recently and Pat has no idea where he is?
Maybe it's a delivery driver other than An Post, he can pop the eircode into Google maps on his smartfone, I could go on and on and on.
And this is not a trick answer.

hognef

Bayberry wrote: »

D06W

That would make sense, but something tells me it'll instead be the moronic D6W (as previously indicated?)...

...
D05
D06
D6W
D07
...

SpaceTime

Considering that anytime we get a new postman (and I'm in an urban area) about 20% of my letters go to the wrong addresses, I will be delighted with this unique ID thing!

Bayberry

SpaceTime wrote: »

Considering that anytime we get a new postman (and I'm in an urban area) about 20% of my letters go to the wrong addresses, I will be delighted with this unique ID thing!

So you think that having Q7GH in your address and LO97 on your left and 2VB5 on your right is going to make your postal deliveries more reliable than having 38 and 42 on either side of number 40?

SpaceTime

Bayberry wrote: »

So you think that having Q7GH in your address and LO97 on your left and 2VB5 on your right is going to make your postal deliveries more reliable than having 38 and 42 on either side of number 40?

Well, just having looked at Google maps, we've 87 houses on my street (it's about a 2km stretch with a few nooks and crannies and off-shoots.

NONE of them are numbered - All individually named and individually built from about 1720 to 2014.

Bayberry

SpaceTime wrote: »

Well, just having looked at Google maps, we've 87 houses on my street (it's about a 2km stretch with a few nooks and crannies and off-shoots.

NONE of them are numbered - All individually named and individually built from about 1720 to 2014.

So you reckon that eircode can't be any worse - OK, I'll buy that. But will it be any better? Seriously - how often is postal delivery a problem on that 2km stretch? As far as An Post are concered, they've got it covered - eircode isn't going to make much difference to them.

Bayberry

Bayberry wrote: »

So you reckon that eircode can't be any worse - OK, I'll buy that. But will it be any better? Seriously - how often is postal delivery a problem on that 2km stretch? As far as An Post are concered, they've got it covered - eircode isn't going to make much difference to them.

At the worst, it gives them less of an excuse for not finding the address!

dr.fuzzenstein

SpaceTime wrote: »

Well, just having looked at Google maps, we've 87 houses on my street (it's about a 2km stretch with a few nooks and crannies and off-shoots.

NONE of them are numbered - All individually named and individually built from about 1720 to 2014.

I have had a few "out and about" jobs here in Ireland and it is a nightmare!
Yes, theoretically streets have names and houses have numbers, but I guess a lot of inhabitants are very concerned about their "privacy", because most streets do not have a name displayed and only 3-4 houses actually display the number. I would guess those are the same people who are opposed to Eircodes, because then "they can be found". Those same people probably don't indicate when they're driving "so people don't know what I'm up to", they are the the same people, when you tell someone "Oh yeah, he got a new table in" and they then say "What you go and tell people my business for?!".
I can only keep coming back to British rule, confuse and disorient the enemy. Especially in the Famine, you would do your damnedest not to let people know your business and what you're up to.
Ireland may be a 21st century European country on the surface, but a lot of attitudes and idiosyncrasies go right back a few hundred years. Sometimes it really is the oddest country.

oscarBravo

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

First of all, the Eircode will make sure Pat gets the letter in the first place and that it doesn't go to postman Mike, because there is also a Ballygobackwards in Co Whatever. Or as with my address two in the same county. What if Pat is off and Dave is doing deliveries this week and he doesn't know the area?
Maybe Jimmy only moved here recently and Pat has no idea where he is?
Maybe it's a delivery driver other than An Post, he can pop the eircode into Google maps on his smartfone, I could go on and on and on.
And this is not a trick answer.

That's a scenario I've encountered several times in the last few months: I get a phone call from a courier (as you may have noticed, I get a lot of phone calls from couriers) that goes something like:

"Hi, I have a delivery for you. Where in Westport are you?"

"OK, head out the Lodge Road..."

"Sorry, I don't cover that side of town."

This has variously resulted in the parcel heading back to the depot to be delivered by a different driver the next day (delay for me, expense for the courier, more handling and potential damage to my parcel); the courier dropping it off at a local business (extra hassle for both me and that business); or in one case me finding the courier in town to pick up the parcel from him (extra hassle for me).

I keep hearing that eircodes won't benefit businesses, but I already know how they're going to benefit mine, so to claim that they won't benefit businesses means that you either haven't bothered to find out how it will do so, or it won't benefit you personally and you're extrapolating that to an assumption that it therefore couldn't possibly be of any use to anyone else.

plodder

oscarBravo wrote: »

That's a scenario I've encountered several times in the last few months: I get a phone call from a courier (as you may have noticed, I get a lot of phone calls from couriers) that goes something like:

"Hi, I have a delivery for you. Where in Westport are you?"

"OK, head out the Lodge Road..."

"Sorry, I don't cover that side of town."

This has variously resulted in the parcel heading back to the depot to be delivered by a different driver the next day (delay for me, expense for the courier, more handling and potential damage to my parcel); the courier dropping it off at a local business (extra hassle for both me and that business); or in one case me finding the courier in town to pick up the parcel from him (extra hassle for me).

I keep hearing that eircodes won't benefit businesses, but I already know how they're going to benefit mine, so to claim that they won't benefit businesses means that you either haven't bothered to find out how it will do so, or it won't benefit you personally and you're extrapolating that to an assumption that it therefore couldn't possibly be of any use to anyone else.

Eircodes may help with this to a small extent, but not to the full extent possible (and you'll still get a call asking you where you are). When a package arrives in Westport PO it will have a Westport routing key on its eircode, but the random junk won't help either of your postmen to determine where exactly in Westport. If the code had a small area code built into it, as in the map below, then the posties would know just from looking at the code who's job it is to deliver.

dr.fuzzenstein

What if there was a magical device that one could put an eircode in and it would show you the address on a map?

MBSnr

plodder wrote: »

Eircodes may help with this to a small extent, but not to the full extent possible (and you'll still get a call asking you where you are). When a package arrives in Westport PO it will have a Westport routing key on its eircode, but the random junk won't help either of your postmen to determine where exactly in Westport. If the code had a small area code built into it, as in the map below, then the posties would know just from looking at the code who's job it is to deliver.

But are you not confusing delivery drivers (DPD etc) with An Post here? An Post know where you are by local knowledge and, as has been pointed out many times, Eircode is slightly irrelevant to them. However if Mr DPD had the Eircode he *could*, with a Sat Nav device, drive up to your door.