National Postcodes to be introduced

plodder

MBSnr wrote: »

But are you not confusing delivery drivers (DPD etc) with An Post here? An Post know where you are by local knowledge and, as has been pointed out many times, Eircode is slightly irrelevant to them. However if Mr DPD had the Eircode he *could*, with a Sat Nav device, drive up to your door.

But, it's not about the delivery stage. It's about sorting the packages to be delivered by man with a van A, and man with a van B. Obviously, when each of them receives their bunch of packages they will use a satnav to deliver them. With Eircode, all of the routing has to be done using the Eircode database, and not simply by looking at the address or the code. Even at the delivery stage, routing will require special software. Normal satnavs/google maps won't be much help for working out optimal routing.

MBSnr

plodder wrote: »

But, it's not about the delivery stage. It's about sorting the packages to be delivered by man with a van A, and man with a van B. Obviously, when each of them receives their bunch of packages they will use a satnav to deliver them. With Eircode, all of the routing has to be done using the Eircode database, and not simply by looking at the address or the code. Even at the delivery stage, routing will require special software. Normal satnavs/google maps won't be much help for working out optimal routing.

Agreed - But they manage to do it now without Eircodes so what changes? Nothing. So they'd continue as before and for the vague townland address only ones (that have a code listed) they'd enter that to avoid the phone calls.

Funny enough I've a DPD package coming to my townland address today. Just waiting on the call to guide him in from about 7Km out....

moyners

plodder wrote: »

But, it's not about the delivery stage. It's about sorting the packages to be delivered by man with a van A, and man with a van B. Obviously, when each of them receives their bunch of packages they will use a satnav to deliver them. With Eircode, all of the routing has to be done using the Eircode database, and not simply by looking at the address or the code. Even at the delivery stage, routing will require special software. Normal satnavs/google maps won't be much help for working out optimal routing.

I'm not an expert on software design for delivery routing, but would it not be extremely easy to get your list of addresses for the days deliveries, process them with a simple program - if there are eircodes on the addresses then the software would quickly run through the list and output coordinates on a map or hand those on to whatever existing software the delivery company may have to plot the optimum routing/correct driver?

On the face of it, it seems like a simple thing to implement on top of whatever legacy systems they use - or am I missing something?

Sam Russell

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

What if there was a magical device that one could put an eircode in and it would show you the address on a map?

Like the one delivered to every house at the time of the change over to the euro. You entered the amount in either currency and it gave you the converted amount. Great device - still works. And it was free.

That would be great if Capita were to do that.:)

Sam Russell

moyners wrote: »

On the face of it, it seems like a simple thing to implement on top of whatever legacy systems they use - or am I missing something?

Maybe the cost of doing so, and the fact that it changes quite significantly the work flow of loading vans.

Bayberry

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

What if there was a magical device that one could put an eircode in and it would show you the address on a map?

What if there was a logical pattern to the postcode so that the postman could do that rough sort with his own factory fitted devices (his eyes).

moyners

Sam Russell wrote: »

Maybe the cost of doing so, and the fact that it changes quite significantly the work flow of loading vans.

But presumably these companies upgrade their route-planning software every few years? So implementing new postcode designs or alterations should be doable, at least by multi-national companies?

plodder

moyners wrote: »

I'm not an expert on software design for delivery routing, but would it not be extremely easy to get your list of addresses for the days deliveries, process them with a simple program - if there are eircodes on the addresses then the software would quickly run through the list and output coordinates on a map or hand those on to whatever existing software the delivery company may have to plot the optimum routing/correct driver?

On the face of it, it seems like a simple thing to implement on top of whatever legacy systems they use - or am I missing something?

Sure, anything is possible with software. But, it has to be written first. And why require a software solution when a simple visual system based on looking at the code would achieve the same end? I have a suspicion also that the closer you get to the csutomer in this business that the lower tech it is. The man with a van might have a device for recording delivery but the sub-depot he works out of, might well be manually sorting the incoming packages

ukoda

Bayberry wrote: »

What if there was a logical pattern to the postcode so that the postman could do that rough sort with his own factory fitted devices (his eyes).

He should do his route on his own factory fitted mobility device too, his legs.

It's 2015, everything is connected now and everything will be connected in the future.

Bayberry

oscarBravo wrote: »

I keep hearing that eircodes won't benefit businesses, but I already know how they're going to benefit mine, so to claim that they won't benefit businesses means that you either haven't bothered to find out how it will do so, or it won't benefit you personally and you're extrapolating that to an assumption that it therefore couldn't possibly be of any use to anyone else.

My point has consistently been that the design of eirccode is so ****ed up (for no obvious reason that anyone will admit to) that the purported advantages for businesses will a)not be as good as they could be, and b)cost more to achieve.

Most of the companies that specialize in this area (An Post and FTAI) have said that they won't be using eircode because it wasn't designed to do the things that they need from a post code.

This attitude of "ah sure, it'll do" attitude of ignoring the obvious flaws in things that you and other supporters of eircode have is precisely why we have to put up with this sort of **** from public services again and again and again.

ukoda

Bayberry wrote: »

My point has consistently been that the design of eirccode is so ****ed up (for no obvious reason that anyone will admit to) that the purported advantages for businesses will a)not be as good as they could be, and b)cost more to achieve.

Most of the companies that specialize in this area (An Post and FTAI) have said that they won't be using eircode because it wasn't designed to do the things that they need from a post code.

This attitude of "ah sure, it'll do" attitude of ignoring the obvious flaws in things that you and other supporters of eircode have is precisely why we have to put up with this sort of **** from public services again and again and again.

An Post are happy with the code

FTAI aren't happy because it's not the same as the UK code and they've thrown their toys out of the pram

There are pros and cons of any code you try introduce

My attitude isn't "ah sure it'll do" my attitude is: I see why this type of code was selected and im ok with the rationale behind choosing it.

Bayberry

moyners wrote: »

But presumably these companies upgrade their route-planning software every few years? So implementing new postcode designs or alterations should be doable, at least by multi-national companies?

Wonderful - lets spend €25 million to set up a random postcode that multi-nationals can afford to take advantage of, but that smaller indigenous Irish delivery companies can't afford.

Instead of a rational design that could have offered some advantage just by looking at it, without needing to pay a fee to access the database.

oscarBravo

plodder wrote: »

Eircodes may help with this to a small extent, but not to the full extent possible (and you'll still get a call asking you where you are).

Why would I get a call asking me where I am, when there's a code on the address label that locates me precisely?

When a package arrives in Westport PO...

It won't. I'm not talking about An Post.

plodder wrote: »

But, it's not about the delivery stage. It's about sorting the packages to be delivered by man with a van A, and man with a van B. Obviously, when each of them receives their bunch of packages they will use a satnav to deliver them. With Eircode, all of the routing has to be done using the Eircode database, and not simply by looking at the address or the code.

You seem to be operating on the assumption that a hierarchical code would perfectly align with every delivery company's existing geographical divisions.

Even at the delivery stage, routing will require special software. Normal satnavs/google maps won't be much help for working out optimal routing.

Optimal routing is a hard problem anyway. I fail to see how eircodes will make it harder.

Look, it boils down to this: for a parcel delivery business (or a service delivery business like mine) the single most important thing is to know precisely where the customer is. Once you know that, routing becomes possible.

I could regale you with anecdotes of being on the road, trying to decide in what order to visit customers, interleaved with trying to contact them for directions ("the engineer never showed up!" "well, if you answered your ****ing phone he might have...!"), only to discover that a postal address of "Ballina" can actually translate to a location somewhere in Erris.

The bottom line is that everyone for whom this solution isn't a completely perfect fit can legitimately complain that if it had been custom-designed for their specific use case, it would have worked better for them - but it's logically impossible to design a system that's a perfect fit for conflicting use cases.

ukoda

Bayberry wrote: »

Instead of a rational design that could have offered some advantage just by looking at it, without needing to pay a fee to access the database.

Having a fee for a commercial entity to use the code means it's self financing and isn't going to bankrupt any SME, they can invest in it and do a cost benefit analysis to see if buying the code will give them a return on investment.

Much better than the otter way of paying for its maintenance: our tax money.

Some people can't see the wood for the tress

Sheldons Brain

oscarBravo wrote: »

That's a scenario I've encountered several times in the last few months: I get a phone call from a courier (as you may have noticed, I get a lot of phone calls from couriers) that goes something like:

"Hi, I have a delivery for you. Where in Westport are you?"

"OK, head out the Lodge Road..."

"Sorry, I don't cover that side of town."

Presuming that you have a townland name or the like then the courier could easily establish which side of the town this was(Geodirectory, or just look at a map), even if there was an issue identifying the exact house.
So this comes back to the courier using an electronic search of a database rather than just eyeballing the address.

Much better than the otter way of paying for its maintenance: our tax money.

Sometimes tax money is the best way.

MBSnr

Bayberry wrote: »

This attitude of "ah sure, it'll do" attitude of ignoring the obvious flaws in things that you and other supporters of eircode have is precisely why we have to put up with this sort of **** from public services again and again and again.

Really? Dream on. If you think that's the reason for all the public service issues, you are being very short sighted and overly simplifying things.

You do realise that most of the country is still unaware of Eircode? So the silent voice of not knowing will change public services. Again - dream on that we have the ability to change as much as you think.

Bayberry

ukoda wrote: »

An Post are happy with the code

An Post are happy to be paid millions to provide support (raw data and initial distribution) for eircode. They won't be using eircode to do their day to day business.

FTAI aren't happy because it's not the same as the UK code and they've thrown their toys out of the pram

Right, because anyone who's pissed off at the wasted opportunity to get something right is just being childish.

Bayberry

oscarBravo wrote: »

but it's logically impossible to design a system that's a perfect fit for conflicting use cases.

What "conflicting use case"?

THERE IS NO USE CASE FOR A RANDOM POSTCODE!!!!!!

Bayberry

ukoda wrote: »

Having a fee for a commercial entity to use the code means it's self financing and isn't going to bankrupt any SME, they can invest in it and do a cost benefit analysis to see if buying the code will give them a return on investment.

Much better than the otter way of paying for its maintenance: our tax money.

We're going to pay for it one way or another - higher prices or higher taxes.

We'll just be paying a lot more than we would if we had used a design that actually met the criteria set down by the Governments own commitee to advise on Post Codes.

ukoda

Bayberry wrote: »

We're going to pay for it one way or another - higher prices or higher taxes.

We'll just be paying a lot more than we would if we had used a design that actually met the criteria set down by the Governments own commitee to advise on Post Codes.

No, it could drive down prices in the long run if companies take the code on board and realise that paying the fee for the code can deliver efficiencies that are greater than the cost of the postcode. It's basic business stuff. Like the most basic of business concepts. How can you not get it? Return on investment.

oscarBravo

Bayberry wrote: »

My point has consistently been that the design of eirccode is so ****ed up (for no obvious reason that anyone will admit to) that the purported advantages for businesses will a)not be as good as they could be, and b)cost more to achieve.

I really don't care about the design. I care about one thing, and one thing only: will this code tell me precisely where my customer is?

The answer is "yes", so I'm happy.

Most of the companies that specialize in this area (An Post and FTAI) have said that they won't be using eircode because it wasn't designed to do the things that they need from a post code.

Delivery companies will be using eircodes. They can carp about it now, but from when I start having my eircode on parcel labels, they can either deal with a formal complaint every time they ring me for directions, or they can get their sh*t together.

This attitude of "ah sure, it'll do" attitude of ignoring the obvious flaws in things that you and other supporters of eircode have is precisely why we have to put up with this sort of **** from public services again and again and again.[/QUOTE]

Bayberry wrote: »

Wonderful - lets spend €25 million to set up a random postcode that multi-nationals can afford to take advantage of, but that smaller indigenous Irish delivery companies can't afford.

Instead of a rational design that could have offered some advantage just by looking at it, without needing to pay a fee to access the database.

The problem with making assumptions based on glancing at a code is that those assumptions can easily be wrong. When you translate a code to a lat/long pair, you can use whatever software is available to you - a state of the art route optimisation algorithm, or just Google Maps navigation - to bring you precisely to that endpoint.

The whole business of throwing your hands in the air and declaring eircodes a total disaster just because they're not hierarchical is just silly - firstly, it ignores the fact that there are practical reasons for not having a hierarchical code (you may not agree with those reasons, but - again - it wasn't designed exclusively around your personal desires), and second, for most practical purposes it really doesn't matter.

Sam Russell

SpaceTime wrote: »

The houses should be numbered but who is going to organise it?

Houses that do have numbers do not display them - at least in Dublin and probably every other place. It should be a requirement to show a number readable from the road. I used to have to call to houses in Dublin and during the winter it was impossible to find which particular house I was looking for.

The Eircode system solves this by requiring me to have a computer with internet access or a satnav in my pocket. Even then, it may not work as it is random, and the code I have been given might be wrong.

Also, I was looking for a house, which I had the road name and house number. But none of the houses were displaying them. Another time, again in a Dublin housing estate, the house numbers of the road ended before the one I was looking for - it was on the next road across a junction, at an angle. I cannot think how it got that address.

Why cannot a push be made to sort out the nonsense of the unique addresses that do not carry proper numbers, and a start made to give unique addresses to the rest. Houses having names but no numbers in named roads is nonsense in this age. Why not make a state agency responsible for defining addresses - like the Revenue Commissioners who collect the property tax.

A proper post code system (which Eircode is not) is a good thing that will sort out many problems, and Eircode will not solve many of them that could have been sorted.

Bayberry

ukoda wrote: »

No, it could drive down prices in the long run if companies take the code on board and realise that paying the fee for the cost code can deliver efficiencies that are greater than the cost of the postcode. It's basic business stuff. Like the most basic of business concepts. How can you not get it? Return on investment.

Rational PostCode design: Cost X, Benefits Y.

****ed up PostCode desgn: Cost Z*X, Benefits Y-W (won't be useful for "manual" processes"

How can you not get it?

oscarBravo

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Presuming that you have a townland name or the like then the courier could easily establish which side of the town this was(Geodirectory, or just look at a map), even if there was an issue identifying the exact house.

Great. Go find "Coolcran, Ballina, Co Mayo" on a map and come back to me with the co-ordinates.

Bayberry wrote: »

What "conflicting use case"?

THERE IS NO USE CASE FOR A RANDOM POSTCODE!!!!!!

Do you mean that you don't understand the rationale for a non-sequential code; that you understand and disagree with the rationale for a non-sequential code; or that you are unaware that there is a rationale for a non-sequential code?

ukoda

Bayberry wrote: »

Rational PostCode design: Cost X, Benefits Y.

****ed up PostCode desgn: Cost Z*X, Benefits Y-W (won't be useful for "manual" processes"

How can you not get it?

Because I live in 2015 where "manual processes" of sorting packages is an old fashioned dying way of doing business.

If you can't adapt to technology to help you run a business then that's your issue

oscarBravo

Sam Russell wrote: »

Why cannot a push be made to sort out the nonsense of the unique addresses that do not carry proper numbers, and a start made to give unique addresses to the rest.

It boggles my mind that, in the same thread where a substantial percentage of the posters are flatly stating their intended refusal to use an assigned postcode, that there's this oft-repeated belief that Irish people will just use whatever street name and number they're told to.

There's some serious cognitive dissonance at work, there.

Sam Russell

ukoda wrote: »

Because I live in 2015 where "manual processes" of sorting packages is an old fashioned dying way of doing business.

If you go to the doctor in 2015 and he says he is going to do a 'digital' inspection of your prostate, he will not be reaching for his computer or satnav but a pair of rubber gloves.

TheBustedFlush

oscarBravo wrote: »

It boggles my mind that, in the same thread where a substantial percentage of the posters are flatly stating their intended refusal to use an assigned postcode, that there's this oft-repeated belief that Irish people will just use whatever street name and number they're told to.

There's some serious cognitive dissonance at work, there.

Think I'll give that +1000.

They avoided changing/numbering addresses for a number of good reasons - that's one of them.

The fact that the eircode doesn't change addresses is a smart move in relation to adoption.

The state decided what they wanted - and got it - a postal area of 3 digits followed by a maximum of 7 letters/numbers that could be assigned to an individual postal address including multi-apartment buildings. It had to pay for itself, so building in structures that might result in people not paying for it, and or create smaller areas that people might not like meant allocating unsequenced codes to houses near each other. the database has DEDs and small areas in it, so if people want to link to those then they can. Other than that, if Joe public wants to know where a code represents they put it into an app on their phone and it shows them where it is.

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

If you go to the doctor in 2015 and he says he is going to do a 'digital' inspection of your prostate, he will not be reaching for his computer or satnav but a pair of rubber gloves.

I said sorting packages, where are you getting doctors from?

TheBustedFlush

ukoda wrote: »

I said sorting packages, where are you getting doctors from?

They have to handle packages too - occasionally......