National Postcodes to be introduced

oscarBravo

yuloni wrote: »

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Yay, a postcode system that sometimes tells you (but not always) when things are close together. That occasional benefit would totally have been worth designing the entire system around.

ukoda

oscarBravo wrote: »

Yay, a postcode system that sometimes tells you (but not always) when things are close together. That occasional benefit would totally have been worth designing the entire system around.

This is exactly the anti eircode argument tactic. obscure scenarios that are not common everyday occurrences.

Who goes hopping from one property to another blindly
Who wants to go to a patch of grass in a field
Who actually needs to work out manually if one house is next to the other

They are very clever at making the not so common scenarios seem common and complaining because the postcode won't cover every conceivable scenario

You know that one time you want to visit a goat at the water tank in that field?? WELL ERICODE CANT DO THAT

Good lord lads, back to the drawing board.

Sam Russell

oscarBravo wrote: »

Yay, a postcode system that sometimes tells you (but not always) when things are close together. That occasional benefit would totally have been worth designing the entire system around.

The occasional benefit for a non-hierarchical system using random codes is when a code needs to be inserted between two adjacent codes. However, a major benefit for such a system is it gives the operator a constant revenue stream, and then requires constant revisions, which generate further revenue.

The downside is the need for users to constantly consult their pocket computer (which has to be connected to the interweb) to find their way around - even while sorting through a pile of parcels to be delivered.

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

The occasional benefit for a non-hierarchical system using random codes is when a code needs to be inserted between two adjacent codes. However, a major benefit for such a system is it gives the operator a constant revenue stream, and then requires constant revisions, which generate further revenue.

The downside is the need for users to constantly consult their pocket computer (which has to be connected to the interweb) to find their way around - even while sorting through a pile of parcels to be delivered.

The other benefit is that it avoids code snobbery

oscarBravo

Sam Russell wrote: »

The occasional benefit for a non-hierarchical system using random codes is when a code needs to be inserted between two adjacent codes.

That's one benefit, yes.

However, a major benefit for such a system is it gives the operator a constant revenue stream, and then requires constant revisions, which generate further revenue.

That's true of any postcode system that involves a database lookup rather than a transcoding of a lat/long pair, and there were several reasons why the latter wasn't deemed suitable.

The downside is the need for users to constantly consult their pocket computer (which has to be connected to the interweb) to find their way around - even while sorting through a pile of parcels to be delivered.

That's, with respect, a nonsense argument. There's no way to find your way around using postcodes alone unless you have a mechanism for converting them to physical locations. The fact that it might be possible (sometimes) to determine that two postcodes are relatively close to each other doesn't help you find either of them.

yuloni

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ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

Anyway... I'm done with you

Is that a promise! Hopefully

oscarBravo

yuloni wrote: »

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With respect, you don't get to ask questions while telling me what answers you will and won't accept. If you run a business that requires being able to locate deeply rural customers, we can compare notes.

yuloni

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ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

OK, I will accept "too cumbersome for the customer". So, is there a reason you don't use any of the existing geo-code solutions to aid pin-pointing potential customers?

Also, what about licensing?

Sorry to butt in but...if you have an non unique rural address, there's no product out that can tell you its geocode because it could be one of several available. With ericode its 1 code = 1 delivery point

Isn't that just easier than trying to get the customer to use something like loc8 which is used so little they'd really not need it enough to actually want to commit to it, eircode will be the national official code so it's going to get much more traction

Bayberry

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Have you any statement from An Post stating the above?
Or should I say any statement or link to same to back up this completely made up pile of nonsense.

I'm repeating what I've read here and in other forums. I pointed to Autoadresses statement that An Post will require an actual human-readable address forall post, that an Eircode on it's own won't be sufficient, and there is nothing on www.anpost.ie to suggest otherwise.

What's this sudden focus on actual statements. Can I take it that you're going to stop posting bull**** without quoting chapter and verse from now on?

yuloni

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oscarBravo

yuloni wrote: »

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They're too cumbersome for the customer.

Let's suppose I ask someone for their Loc8 code. After spending the time explaining to them what it is, I have to wait for them to figure out how to use the Loc8 website, and tell me the code. That's time that I'm spending on a sales call talking about something that's not interesting to the customer; at least asking them for directions is keeping them in a familiar domain.

And that's assuming that they can find their location on a map - you'd be amazed how many people can't. I was recently given a wrong location for a wind farm, and that's someone who should know how to read a map.

It's also assuming they have Internet access when I'm talking to them.

And then there's the question of integration with my CMS. I have Google Maps integration, which allows me to follow directions and locate the customer with whatever degree of accuracy is currently possible, without leaving the system. From what I can see, integrating Loc8 codes would require licensing. If I'm going to pay to licence a postcode system, I'll hold out for one with a likelihood of a useful level of adoption.

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I don't know for sure yet. My early discussions with the Eircode people lead me to believe that the cost/benefit will be positive. I'll know more when I've had more detailed conversations with them after the launch.

ukoda

Bayberry wrote: »

I'm repeating what I've read here and in other forums. I pointed to Autoadresses statement that An Post will require an actual human-readable address forall post, that an Eircode on it's own won't be sufficient, and there is nothing on www.anpost.ie to suggest otherwise.

What's this sudden focus on actual statements. Can I take it that you're going to stop posting bull**** without quoting chapter and verse from now on?

Have a Google for news articles about eircode that have comments from An Post, they have integrated ericode into their OCR tech so that the scanners can identify an eircode. It would make sense for An Post to say you should still write the full address, like I mentioned earlier conventional addresses haven't been replaced. Writing a full address with a post code included would be the maximum way to ensure delivery as it gives An Post a double check on the address and the postcode.

ukoda

ukoda wrote: »

This is exactly the anti eircode argument tactic. obscure scenarios that are not common everyday occurrences.

Who goes hopping from one property to another blindly
Who wants to go to a patch of grass in a field
Who actually needs to work out manually if one house is next to the other

They are very clever at making the not so common scenarios seem common and complaining because the postcode won't cover every conceivable scenario

You know that one time you want to visit a goat at the water tank in that field?? WELL ERICODE CANT DO THAT

Good lord lads, back to the drawing board.

If I was a delivery driver, it would be useful if the first part of the code brought me to a small area then I can look closer at individual addresses, the proposed system had region then individual property and nothing in between.

I don't have an issue with non sequential codes, just the lack of a (cluster) code.

oscarBravo

yuloni wrote: »

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There's a key distinction you're missing: a customer's BIC and IBAN are authoritative, and have been advised to them by a competent authority. A Loc8 code is one of a number of ways of transcoding a latitude and longitude, and there's no authoritative Loc8 code for any of my customers.

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I've answered. You don't have to like the answer, but my business decisions only have to make sense to me, not you.

oscarBravo

Deleted User wrote: »

If I was a delivery driver, it would be useful if the first part of the code brought me to a small area then I can look closer at individual addresses, the proposed system had region then individual property and nothing in between.

There will still be full addresses on the labels. If I was a delivery driver, I'd broadly speaking cluster by routing key, then townland (or housing estate, or whatever), then the full code.

ukoda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If I was a delivery driver, it would be useful if the first part of the code brought me to a small area then I can look closer at individual addresses, the proposed system had region then individual property and nothing in between.

Assuming all your deliveries are in the one small area, or do you propose they drive to the general area, then figure out the actual address, then drive to the next general area and stop to figure out the actual address/addreses

If I was a delivery driver id be investing in one of the many many cloud based routing systems (reasonably priced too btw) out there to do all that work for me

I saw one in action that's a mobile app that can use the phones camera to recognise an address or multiple addreses scanned in any sequence and figure out a route using google maps

The service provider had stats from real world case studies to show a 30% increase in efficiency and a similar reduction in fuel costs.

Just to add these were all small companies with a few trucks and the return on invest time was less than 12 months

yuloni

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oscarBravo

yuloni wrote: »

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Even if they didn't work? Even if they pissed customers off?

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If Loc8 codes would help, we'd be using them. We've evaluated them as a solution, and found them wanting.

The single most significant thing (from my perspective) about eircodes is that every single one of my existing and future customers will be officially informed of their eircode by an authoritative source. In other words, there's a fair to middling chance (despite what the naysayers on here would have us believe) that when someone rings me, they'll actually know their eircode as opposed to having to fooster around on some website looking for one, and probably getting it wrong.

Bayberry

oscarBravo wrote: »

they'll actually know their eircode as opposed to having to fooster around on some website looking for one, and probably getting it wrong.

It's amazing to me that there's nothing wrong with eircodes because everyone already has a mobile phone with a GPS, but none of your customers do.

You don't even need to use Loc8. Just a short address on your own website with some javascript, text them the URL, have the user just press a button on the web page, and they've registered their current location on your server

http://gmaps-samples-v3.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/geolocate/geolocate.html

oscarBravo

Bayberry wrote: »

It's amazing to me that there's nothing wrong with eircodes because everyone already has a mobile phone with a GPS, but none of your customers do.

I know it's an exercise in futility arguing with the eircode-is-the-worst-thing-in-the-history-of-everything-ever mentality, but: I don't need my customers to have and know how to use a GPS-enabled smartphone; I just need to know where they are, and my employees can use that information in their GPS-enabled smartphones.

You don't even need to use Loc8. Just a short address on your own website with some javascript, text them the URL, have the user just press a button on the web page, and they've registered their current location on your server

http://gmaps-samples-v3.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/geolocate/geolocate.html

Two snags with that theory: the assumption that everyone who contacts me is physically at the location where they want the service at the time; and the assumption that they have Internet access (which, given that they're contacting me, is not a given).

It's a bit strange that some people seem to be jumping to the conclusion that the only reason I'm not using the multitude of existing geolocation solutions is that I'm somehow too stupid to have thought of them.

TheBustedFlush

Without doubt, the one benefit that Eircode has over every other code design is that the official one will be sent to every address. Not that everyone will remember theirs or they'll lose the notification, etc - there's always a small number.

Loc8 doesn't have a database and therefore it's difficult to find out the code for someone not familiar with mapping and moving things around on a screen.

Go Code has a database of addresses that can be entered easily enough but doesn't have all of them apparently.

GeoDirectory's online system has all the addresses and they can be looked up, but difficult to communicate the location from the map on screen.

Openpostcode doesn't have anything.

Eircode will be the official address code, people can use a location codes for all the other things as has been pointed out already.

Bray Head

Serious question: why don't people in rural areas with non-unique addresses learn off their GPS coordinates? It would make life a lot simpler for deliveries if accounts on this thread are anything to go by.

One would worry about the use and update of eircodes when people are unwilling to use an existing (if cumbersome) location tool.

Trouwe Ier

Bray Head wrote: »

Serious question: why don't people in rural areas with non-unique addresses learn off their GPS coordinates? It would make life a lot simpler for deliveries if accounts on this thread are anything to go by.

One would worry about the use and update of eircodes when people are unwilling to use an existing (if cumbersome) location tool.

In my experience, a lot of people who are quite intelligent and otherwise erudite don't even know what GPS is. Remember also that there is no guarantee that people would remember that the easting and northing figures would need to have the same amount of digits. To get down to a resolution of 100m2, you would need at least seven digits if uou use the grid square letter or eight if you don't. Eircode's seven digits gets you the letter box.

Also in my experience, people always seem to have a bill or two (unless they are AAA members) lying about at home. I would imagine that even if they lose their Eircode card, they will have some utility bill or correspondence with a harp on it close to hand and I am assuming that from July, such documentation will include the eircode.

With reference to post code snobbery, I'm just wondering now if there will be an "A01" routing key. That would add value to your address alright!

I was showing someone the Open Postcode app last night and she put the 'pointer' just to the north of Rosenallis, Co. Laois. The last three digits of the open code were "WNK"!

thunderdog

Does anyone on this thread use any GIS system regularly? I use it for work and I'm trying to think of ways in which the Eircode system could be of benefit to me.

Kalyke

I use my smartphone at the moment, but I am in the market for a standalone Sat Nav. Would I be better off waiting until Eircodes are launched or will Sat Navs be backward compatible with them?

ukoda

Kalyke wrote: »

I use my smartphone at the moment, but I am in the market for a standalone Sat Nav. Would I be better off waiting until Eircodes are launched or will Sat Navs be backward compatible with them?

Id say wait until it launched and contact the manufacturers

I've emailed both TomTom and Garmin and asked them when they will be adopting eircode.

It's hard to get an answer as the front line staff are mostly just support of existing products, but I am now in touch with the European marketing director of one of them and she's being really helpful with directing me to the correct "product development" people.

when I hear back I'll post here.

ukoda

thunderdog wrote: »

Does anyone on this thread use any GIS system regularly? I use it for work and I'm trying to think of ways in which the Eircode system could be of benefit to me.

GIS systems can be pretty broad ranging in what they do, what do you use it for?

In terms of ericode, it could layered in fairly easily with a code look up to the database to return the geocode and that could pinpoint the location on your map, eircode also has an address validation API so if your end users were general public they could enter their ericode or address and be pin pointed on a map

If you're using it for spacial analysis or other functions, then there appears to be a vast set of queries available from the ECAD database that could help

You could ask eircode directly: sales (at) eircode (dot) ie but they are very slow to reply and seem to only have basic scripted answers, keep at them tho and you'll get an answer eventually (they got so sick of me they got one of the directors to email me directly haha)

thunderdog

ukoda wrote: »

GIS systems can be pretty broad ranging in what they do, what do you use it for?

In terms of ericode, it could layered in fairly easily with a code look up to the database to return the geocode and that could pinpoint the location on your map, eircode also has an address validation API so if your end users were general public they could enter their ericode or address and be pin pointed on a map

If you're using it for spacial analysis or other functions, then there appears to be a vast set of queries available from the ECAD database that could help

You could ask eircode directly: sales (at) eircode (dot) ie but they are very slow to reply and seem to only have basic scripted answers, keep at them tho and you'll get an answer eventually (they got so sick of me they got one of the directors to email me directly haha)

Cheers for the reply. I mostly use GIS to figure out where the best location for new stores would be (work for a large retailer), so looking at catchment sizes, purchasing power etc