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National Postcodes to be introduced

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    #602
    iMax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,489 ✭✭✭iMax


    Tried using Loc8 last week. Thoroughly unimpressed. The fact I had to generate my own code, which will most probably differ from one generated by someone else, is a pain.

    In all likelihood,the system while technically competent, will not be adopted by govt. Right now, in the absence of an official system it's adequate, despite the company's lobbying/advertising & the existing uptake, it is not a replacement for an official system.

    If the company were to generate loc8 codes for the entire country it may have a chance of success, but that's not going to happen & I see that as it's biggest failing.


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    #603
    thirty-six dragons
    Registered Users Posts: 108 ✭✭thirty-six dragons


    Thanks for all the "testing" of http://tinyurl.com/openpostcodegoogle by the good folks at loc8code - but you might have noticed that none of those codes were generated by the program. You made them up. There are no vowels or number 1 in the system. The checksum box indicates that there is no checksum - these are not valid codes.

    None of them were made by the system - you just entered random letters and got what you expected: an invalid code.


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    #604
    iMax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,489 ✭✭✭iMax


    That openpostcode is the mutts nuts. Is there an iphone app for it ?

    Interesting app in the UK http://itunes.apple.com/ie/app/ifreethepostcode/id296156549?mt=8 Allows you to find the GPS location of a postcode


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    #605
    thirty-six dragons
    Registered Users Posts: 108 ✭✭thirty-six dragons


    No app. But hey, someone, getting programming. It's opensource. Do what you like with it.


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    #606
    thirty-six dragons
    Registered Users Posts: 108 ✭✭thirty-six dragons


    Wooh! I missed the bit where I accused of stealing an idea and claiming to have invented a bright new thing.

    No, I just did some maths and some programming. Codes have been around FOREVER. The Irish Grid reference is long established. Higher base encoding is long established in computing to maximise the use the alphanumeric character set to represent numbers. And a checksum is an integral part of so so much of computing and data handling. The same checksum calculation is being used in everyone's PPS number: it's the last character. As for the dash: sheesh, you own punctuation now? I don't think so. The dash is used all over the shop for separating values.

    I've since changed my naming scheme from "locality" - I didn't much like the word. A bog is a poor "locality". So now I have designated regional "zones"; "area" codes; "places"; and the precise "location". This would be different in Irish or Polish or whatever language people would like to use. In fact I think we'll call them "Fred", "Sheila", "Jack" and "Bob".

    As for prior art: you might also reference this 2006 article on geolocation codes: http://blog.jgc.org/2006/07/simple-code-for-entering-latitude-and.html

    Apology accepted.


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    #607
    thirty-six dragons
    Registered Users Posts: 108 ✭✭thirty-six dragons


    I also find it amazing to have so much anger come at me about another coding system.

    Loc8codes are wonderful. Use them. Please, do. But I can't afford the licenses and I'm all about the opensource. So I create an opensource code. http://tinyurl.com/openpostcode

    It is irrelevant what the government or anyone else does - the code works. Companies and organisations and individuals are free to use it, publicly or privately, to generate and use geolocation codes for Ireland for location based databases, inventory, etc.

    It can also just be used as a convenient way to get customers, clients, members, etc., to confirm locations and to reply with updated data (for example, for estate agents, plumbers, satellite TV installers, anyone). No license required. No fuss. No need to wait for a government decision.

    And there's no one stopping anyone using a Loc8code. As you say - they look different so no one, no system is going to get confused.


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    #608
    MOSSAD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 317 ✭✭MOSSAD


    So tell me this-Ianthe teacher wants to offer a free postcode. Garydubh attacks it like it doesn't work. Do I smell someone worried about losing a load of potential cash if something is offered for free?


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    #609
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Well done Ian, nice implementaton.


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    #610
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,691 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    MOSSAD wrote: »
    So tell me this-Ianthe teacher wants to offer a free postcode. Garydubh attacks it like it doesn't work. Do I smell someone worried about losing a load of potential cash if something is offered for free?

    I just smell the same problem we've had since this thread began, namely people trying to propose their system as better. Which is why there's now at least ten sets of dreamers thinking they've designed a 'postcode' system when they've basically designed an algo to compact down grid references...


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    #611
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,787 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    garydubh wrote: »
    Loc8 Code fits to Atomic Small Area Codes - so no problems there.

    Your solution would work except to use it every device must have access to the database which defines where each code is... such Databases are expensive to maintain, only for properties, cannot be dynamic. Also the codes would be long and variable in length and difficult for any technology to validate that they are an actual code rather than just a collection of random characters.

    I presume you are referring to the in-car device. These devices already have comprehensive map and address databases on-board. Memory capacity is not really much of an issue as far as I can see.

    The code would not be long or variable in length. It would be eight digits.

    It could be validated by putting it in the pattern IRL-12345 678

    Or for simplicity, only the first 5 digits might be used initially. For most homes and premises, this is enough, in combination with the address.
    The beauty of Loc8 Code is that it can work without a database (and all the related cost for solution developer/user). The Loc8 code is the location - not just a reference number in a database that has to be looked up to get the location.

    The Loc8 code also requires a database, such as OSNI or Geodirectory, from which to derive the codes. The Loc8 implementation also has an option for intelligent access keys and again these would require a database.These databases are extraordinarily expensive to maintain, especially to the standards of accuracy that Loc8 requires.

    The Loc8 code appears to be very heavily dependent on availability of GPS technology to be used. GPS technology is a boon, especially for surveying, but it cannot really be depended upon to be available at all times. There is no guaranteed service level on GPS, and GPS units are subject to accidental or deliberate jamming. Nor is there a less vulnerable terrestrial alternative to GPS at present or in the medium term. In the UK, the Royal Academy of Engineering has warned about the risk of overdependence on GPS and alternatives are being developed, but these are years away.
    Also as a location a Loc8 Code never has to change to match densification or adminstrative changes. By their nature, Small Area Codes will change to compensate for densification - thereby changing a property's derived code.

    It would actually be exceptional enough to have to do this. There is a lot of number space there. There are around 120 households at most in any SA. There are 899 numbers in the range. Even if the population doubled or quadrupled, you would still have quite a lot of numbers to spare. If you used 5+4, then would have enough numbers to cope with the population increasing ten-fold, without any need to renumber.

    A loc8 code might also need to be changed, if the original surveying turned out to be incorrect. If the access point were changed, perhaps as a result of changes to the road network, this might also entail a changed loc8 code. It is not exactly clear how a user could check to make sure that its loc8 code database were in fact fully up-to-date.
    There is therefore a major difference between both options which have been considered in depth at this point and the new Minister and both Government parties are most definitely in favour of the Location based option.

    Where have they said this?


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    #612
    thirty-six dragons
    Registered Users Posts: 108 ✭✭thirty-six dragons


    MYOB wrote: »
    I just smell the same problem we've had since this thread began, namely people trying to propose their system as better. Which is why there's now at least ten sets of dreamers thinking they've designed a 'postcode' system when they've basically designed an algo to compact down grid references...

    I have to agree wholeheartedly with my learned friend here - it is just a compression algorithm for a grid reference. That's all. No invention at all. My maths works out nice though and I'm happy with the implementation. It's been fun. You'll note also that I made it opensource so there's no question of dreaming or making money from it. I will happily use it, where appropriate, as a learning tool in the classroom on coding systems, opensource, and/or javascript.

    Perhaps a difference too between straightforward dreaming and real life is that the implementation of my coding is actually working in this proof of concept http://tinyurl.com/openpostcodegoogle

    And perhaps non-dreamers aren't the most interesting people in the world either, are they.


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    #613
    thirty-six dragons
    Registered Users Posts: 108 ✭✭thirty-six dragons


    GoCode is another code - been in development since 2005, I read. Similar higher base representation of coordinate data I assume. No different to computers storing numerical data in binary stores using all available ASCII.


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    #614
    iMax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,489 ✭✭✭iMax


    Been very interesting reading the thread.

    If one thing had become evident, the actual implementation & control of the postcode (or whatever it's going to be) system cannot be controlled by a private company.

    Well done to Ian for his development & generosity in making it open source.

    I'm going to be mailing my Td to bring it to his attention & I'd like to suggest that others do the same.


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    #615
    garydubh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    iantheteacher wrote: »
    None of them were made by the system - you just entered random letters and got what you expected: an invalid code.


    Not the case - both 9999-999 and 9999-999-Y can be entered manually by anyone in the system and a map location shown (the same one in both cases).


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    #616
    garydubh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    iMax wrote: »
    Been very interesting reading the thread.

    If one thing had become evident, the actual implementation & control of the postcode (or whatever it's going to be) system cannot be controlled by a private company. .

    As for a postcode - think you are mistaken - already a tender process started to select a company!


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    #617
    garydubh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    iantheteacher wrote: »
    I But I can't afford the licenses and I'm all about the opensource. .

    Cant't afford what licences - can you be specific?


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    #618
    garydubh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    MOSSAD wrote: »
    Garydubh attacks it like it doesn't work.

    Attacts is not really a correct reflection -I will always offer an opininion based on full consideration of the issues. Please take time to consider the points raised and if you have a considered opinion on the requirements of a postcode or a location code please feel free to express it.


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    #619
    garydubh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Well done Ian, nice implementaton.
    Can you advise of waht specific requirements you have assessed it fullfills?


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    #620
    thirty-six dragons
    Registered Users Posts: 108 ✭✭thirty-six dragons


    garydubh wrote: »
    Not the case - both 9999-999 and 9999-999-Y can be entered manually by anyone in the system and a map location shown (the same one in both cases).

    9999-999-Y and 9999-999 are the same code. The Y is the checksum at the end.

    It's true - they work. I'd love that postcode! Imagine, so easy to remember and how you could show it off! (I have visions of uniforms!).

    I wonder if we should drive around to the people living there (although 9999-999-Y is a 3m radius so it might be gooseberry bush) and ask.

    But seriously, to answer, yes of course you can find odd codes - it might be the beauty of any system. I remember car regs that were HIV and other odd things - we got over it.

    But more importantly, since it is opensource and the conversion from longitude and latitude to a code is implemented in a handful of lines of code and all the parameters for the coding are just:

    east=-11; south=51.3; wide=6; high=4.4
    raw="0123456789ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQR"
    enc="23456789BCDFGHJKLMNPQRTVWXYZ"

    It can be easily adjusted. It's just a proof of concept now - nothing is implemented (that is unless anyone privately wants a good compressed geolocation code for location based activities, inventory, housing stock, etc. then they can implement whatever version of the code they like!).


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    #621
    thirty-six dragons
    Registered Users Posts: 108 ✭✭thirty-six dragons


    garydubh wrote: »
    Attacts is not really a correct reflection -I will always offer an opininion based on full consideration of the issues. Please take time to consider the points raised and if you have a considered opinion on the requirements of a postcode or a location code please feel free to express it.

    It was a bit of an attack and a rant when you decided to parse into my user name and attack my job and mock my name all in the same go - something about an ianny-meany-miney, whatever - actually it's kind of funny really. I'd never thought of singing that to myself. In fact it nearly perfectly describes me, except for the miney bit - I don't do much of the olde mining anymore.

    But what about it. Tis alright. I bet you're a smashing fella all the same.


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    #622
    thirty-six dragons
    Registered Users Posts: 108 ✭✭thirty-six dragons


    garydubh wrote: »
    Cant't afford what licences - can you be specific?

    Well, for instance, in the public sector, in school; one thing that would be wonderful to be able to easily do is to geocode the addresses of the students and staff. We could then effectively and easily map our catchment area and get a better idea of our marketing successes and know more about our students and the kinds of support they need.

    For instance, during the harsh winter conditions I'm not sure if it was obvious how many students from rural areas would be effected. Although, have no fear, management did the analysis and made the appropriate decisions. I just imagine it wasn't straightforward.

    Now, enter a Loc8code to everyone's address. Bingo. Excitement. Geolocation!! here we come.

    Eh no, reverse - so like whaddaya mean we can't just plot a map of all the students? Huh? And we can't calculate the distribution chart of distance from the school? And we can't use it to automatically verify the address database.

    Ah nuts.

    So, tell us; how much is a license to do all that?


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    #623
    iMax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,489 ✭✭✭iMax


    garydubh wrote: »
    As for a postcode - think you are mistaken - already a tender process started to select a company!

    Well hopefully it will be the company that gives the most back to the public rather than (as in the past), giving the least for the most cost.


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    #624
    thirty-six dragons
    Registered Users Posts: 108 ✭✭thirty-six dragons


    garydubh wrote: »
    As for a postcode - think you are mistaken - already a tender process started to select a company!

    So since there's a tender process for a company then why all the snarling? Sure we can all happily do our thing and someone is going to make money out of the address system for the entire country. It makes no sense whatsoever - so, this being Ireland, it will probably happen.


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    #625
    garydubh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    I presume you are referring to the in-car device. These devices already have comprehensive map and address databases on-board.
    No comprehensive address database for Ireland loaded. Memory already under pressure - some devices need added memory cards just to take map updates. SatNav manufacturers do not want additional costs and maintenance requirements - even the USB cable has to be purchased seperately these days!
    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    The code would not be long or variable in length. It would be eight digits.
    I understood you said it would contain road numbers - they vary in length thereby varying the code length?
    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    It could be validated by putting it in the pattern IRL-12345 678
    there is more to validation than using a string of numbers that someone can randomly create.
    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    Or for simplicity, only the first 5 digits might be used initially. For most homes and premises, this is enough, in combination with the address.
    not for over 750,000 properties (and farm businesses) or are we just looking after the lucky ones in some urban areas?
    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    The Loc8 code also requires a database, such as OSNI or Geodirectory, from which to derive the codes.
    Not deployed on devices as you know. Loc8 Code works on devices without the need for any related database.
    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    The Loc8 implementation also has an option for intelligent access keys and again these would require a database.These databases are extraordinarily expensive to maintains, especially to the standards of accuracy that Loc8 requires.
    as you say its an option and not a requirement!
    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    The Loc8 code appears to be very heavily dependent on availability of GPS technology to be used.
    Loc8 Code is based on coordinates not GPS - suitable for use on any position determining device. It is mistakenly mis-understood that GPS uniquely creates coordinates - coordinates have existed long before GPS was ever developed.
    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    GPS technology is a boon, especially for surveying, but it cannot really be depended upon to be available at all times. There is no guaranteed service level on GPS, and GPS units are subject to accidental or deliberate jamming.
    GPS (NAVSTAR) has continuously exceeded design accuracy and availability requirements since development. True - GPS can be jammed and commercial users should take this into account - but truly this is not an ongoing concern for normal day to day use of GPS. I have used GPS almost every day for over 17 years in many parts of the world and this has never stopped me from doing what I needed to do when outside military controlled zones.
    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    Nor is there a less vulnerable terrestrial alternative to GPS at present or in the medium term. In the UK, the Royal Academy of Engineering has warned about the risk of overdependence on GPS and alternatives are being developed, but these are years away.
    Don't have to go to Royal Academy of Engineering to hear that - I say it myself to my students routinely - but this is an issue for those in safety critical and high accuracy applications - not for basic day to day use. GPS is a multiple hundreds of billion dollar industry and is around to stay and GNSS is already here (Combined NAVSTAR, SBAS, GLONASS with COMPASS/BEIDOU coming and GALILEO trotting behind - plus INS in specialist use and eLoran proven)
    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    It would actually be exceptional enough to have to do this. There is a lot of number space there. There are around 120 households at most in any SA. There are 899 numbers in the range. Even if the population doubled or quadrupled, you would still have quite a lot of numbers to spare. If you used 5+4, then would have enough numbers to cope with the population increasing ten-fold, without any need to renumber.
    Not the point;- Small Area Codes are designed for statistical use and to have roughly even numbers per code - Average 87 properties. To maintain the averages if a new estate is built (I know that seems unlikely right now but normality will return eventually and this could be commercial as well as domestic properties) - then the area will have to be realigned - some houses may find themselves in a new code - this is a feature of traditional postcodes and very often results in appeals and litigation.
    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    A loc8 code might also need to may be changed, if the original surveying turned out to be incorrect. If the access point were changed, perhaps as a result of changes to the road network, this might also entail a changed loc8 code. It is not exactly clear how a user could check to make sure that its loc8 code database were in fact fully up-to-date.
    Surveyors get things wrong by cm's not metres - the same surveyors that produced the data used for the Small Area Codes you are proposing as the basis for a postcode. Sure mistakes happen - but properties normally have been surveyed several times for several reasons before they get published. Once coordinates establsihed and Loc8 Code generated, then changes to the road network don't change the property location - satnav/map, navigator and mark 1 eyeball will deal with the road navigation issues.

    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    Where have they said this?
    Manifestos (page 32), Oireachtas Report, Dail Record and Postal Bill as well as many other sources well documented in the public domain.


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    #626
    garydubh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    iantheteacher wrote: »
    Well, for instance, in the public sector, in school; one thing that would be wonderful to be able to easily do is to geocode the addresses of the students and staff. We could then effectively and easily map our catchment area and get a better idea of our marketing successes and know more about our students and the kinds of support they need.

    a simple GIS excercise - Geography Dept UCC can help you with that!


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    #627
    garydubh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    iantheteacher wrote: »

    So, tell us; how much is a license to do all that?
    Guess you need to contact Loc8 Code direct to dicuss that - I am sure they will look after you!


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    #628
    thirty-six dragons
    Registered Users Posts: 108 ✭✭thirty-six dragons


    garydubh wrote: »
    a simple GIS excercise - Geography Dept UCC can help you with that!

    How utterly rude of you. How in God's name is the geocoding of Irish addresses a simple GIS exercise? Are you mindless as well as rude? And on top of the weird addresses we have in this country (I give you the address of Mallow - which nearly stretches from Kerry to Mitchelstown) you want to add a nonsensical code which adds absolutely zero, diddly, squat, value to that address if you don't sit on your lap in Crosshaven and have access to the program that converts the codes to coordinates!


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    #629
    thirty-six dragons
    Registered Users Posts: 108 ✭✭thirty-six dragons


    garydubh wrote: »
    Guess you need to contact Loc8 Code direct to dicuss that - I am sure they will look after you!

    You don't happen to know anyone in Loc8code that might be able to answer that question, do you?


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    #630
    garydubh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    iantheteacher wrote: »
    So since there's a tender process for a company then why all the snarling? Sure we can all happily do our thing and someone is going to make money out of the address system for the entire country. It makes no sense whatsoever - so, this being Ireland, it will probably happen.

    Interesting that your take on it is that no minimum considered standards are required and no management or control over the quality of the code necessary?

    Many who have looked at this in depth would accept that an investment is required and where there is investment there has to be a return.

    Is education free - think maybe knowldge is?


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    #631
    thirty-six dragons
    Registered Users Posts: 108 ✭✭thirty-six dragons


    garydubh wrote: »
    Interesting that your take on it is that no minimum considered standards are required and no management or control over the quality of the code necessary?

    Many who have looked at this in depth would accept that an investment is required and where there is investment there has to be a return.

    Is education free - think maybe knowldge is?

    Yes, a lot of education is free. But your point is .... what? Or did you just want to talk about my personal life and career again. What are you? The News of the Friggn World?

    As for investment; don't An Post already have the geolocation of 1.7 million addresses done? Is that what Loc8code hope to attach itself to? Can't see the cost in applying a simple formula to a database myself, but I will take your word for it. You know best. Loc8code rocks! It really does.

    Now, if anyone is interested in an opensource geolocation code that is more precise and free and they have a need for such a code for inventory (hey NAMA! are you listening!?) and nothing at all to do with silly postcodes that have no value to ordinary people then try http://tinyurl.com/openpostcode - it can't hurt, it's just a bloody coordinate representation.


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