National Postcodes to be introduced

garydubh · 18-07-2011 11:50pm

iantheteacher wrote: »

You don't happen to know anyone in Loc8code that might be able to answer that question, do you?

Feel free to contact them direct www.loc8code.com/W8L-82-4YK - both them and GPS Ireland www.loc8code.com/W8L-84-4YK do a lot of work in Irish Colleges.

garydubh · 19-07-2011 12:00am

iantheteacher wrote: »

How utterly rude of you. How in God's name is the geocoding of Irish addresses a simple GIS exercise? Are you mindless as well as rude? And on top of the weird addresses we have in this country (I give you the address of Mallow - which nearly stretches from Kerry to Mitchelstown) you want to add a nonsensical code which adds absolutely zero, diddly, squat, value to that address if you don't sit on your lap in Crosshaven and have access to the program that converts the codes to coordinates!

No Loc8 Codes not needed or suggested - is this an in-house exercise you are planning?

thirty-six dragons · 19-07-2011 12:04am

garydubh wrote: »

Feel free to contact them direct www.loc8code.com/W8L-82-4YK - both them and GPS Ireland www.loc8code.com/W8L-84-4YK do a lot of work in Irish Colleges.

Oh to work in a "college" - 'twould be swank. But lad, you've made my point for me; I shouldn't have to "talk" to anyone (read "pay") to work on my own address data.

But I suppose eventually people will just start publishing a map of their postcode areas and we'll have a resource to use to do our own conversions from user submitted addresses and "localities". I imagine a list of the "localities" and central coordinates won't be long being public domain. After all, didn't someone say they had no intention of owning people's addresses?

garydubh · 19-07-2011 12:08am

iMax wrote: »

Well hopefully it will be the company that gives the most back to the public rather than (as in the past), giving the least for the most cost.

agree fully

thirty-six dragons · 19-07-2011 12:12am

garydubh wrote: »

No Loc8 Codes not needed or suggested - is this an in-house exercise you are planning?

Indeed; but if Loc8codes, if introduced as a national postcode, can't actually help do the one bloody thing they ought to be able to do (i.e., geolocate, and therefore geocode an address) then, what, Mister, is the point of the whole exercise?

garydubh · 19-07-2011 12:25am

iantheteacher wrote: »

Indeed; but if Loc8codes, if introduced as a national postcode, can't actually help do the one bloody thing they ought to be able to do (i.e., geolocate, and therefore geocode an address) then, what, Mister, is the point of the whole exercise?

not sure what point your making?

thirty-six dragons · 19-07-2011 12:54am

garydubh wrote: »

not sure what point your making?

What is the point of the entire country adopting a loc8code or a gocode as a postcode because it's supposed to be this wondrous geolocation code when you can't freely calculate the location from the code?

1. You cannot get the coordinates of a closed-source postcode.
2. You cannot measure the distance between two closed-source postcodes.
3. You cannot make your own maps of closed-source postcodes.
4. You cannot calculate the average distance of clients, customers, etc., from your location.
5. You cannot track sales, etc., by geolocation data on a closed-source postcode.
6. You cannot sort address data by location on a closed-source postcode.
7. You cannot use statistical analysis on location data from a closed-source postcode.

and, perhaps more importantly,

8. You can't even validate partial or incorrect addresses from the code, since you don't even know where the code is pointing to.

Granted, you can go to the proprietors' website and look up the code. But has anyone done the maths on how long it would take to look up even just a 1,000 clients/customers/students/places.

Even at a minute a lookup and transfer of coordinates (though actually the sites don't make this possible!) non-stop it would take 16 hours and 40 minutes. Now try 3,000 addresses. Now realistically put it at 3 minutes a code and we get 150 hours - over 6 days - 3.75 man-working-weeks. This is not progress. This is lunacy. The codes are just going to be junk at the end of the address - no more interesting than the can of beans barcode.

garydubh · 19-07-2011 7:03am

iantheteacher wrote: »

What is the point of the entire country adopting a loc8code as a postcode because it's supposed to be this wondrous geolocation code when you can't freely calculate the location from the code?

1. You cannot get the coordinates of a closed-source postcode.
2. You cannot measure the distance between two closed-source postcodes.
3. You cannot make your own maps of closed-source postcodes.
4. You cannot calculate the average distance of clients, customers, etc., from your location.
5. You cannot track sales, etc., by geolocation data on a closed-source postcode.
6. You cannot sort address data by location on a closed-source postcode.
7. You cannot use statistical analysis on location data from a closed-source postcode.

All of these are indeed possible with Loc8 Code integrated into the appropratiate applications or devices that provide the functionality listed - most not the requirements of every day users. However many are available to Loc8 Code users through dedicated web services/applications which they have access to. Also GPS Ireland provides Hangle software which would provide the basis for most of what you need.

If you want to do something specific then all is required is to contact Loc8 Code directly and they'll assist you. I don't think you answered before if your proposed project is an in-house one? Do you have access to GIS software?

Sponge Bob · 19-07-2011 11:47am

garydubh wrote: »

Can you advise of waht specific requirements you have assessed it fullfills?

I congratulated him for his work and that is all, I am entitled be considerate towards those who do a good job..as indeed I was to you when you invented PON codes 3 years back and prosletised in here.

I gave up once PON was dumped with no warning and suddenly replaced with Loc8 and with no cross conversion or upconversion capability. My PON code became inoperable overnight. I indicated my displeasure in this thread at the time.

So now we have PON(RIP) Loc8 Gocode and Ians Openpostcode system together with whatever fannyballs the DCENR comes up with no doubt.

Thankfully the openpostcode system in a mashup with openstreetmap will make for a most interesting and OPEN SOURCE alternative to that shaggin geodirectory. I would ask Ian whether he can bound and bundle codes within an ED ...because if so game on.

thirty-six dragons · 19-07-2011 11:56am

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I congratulated him for his work and that is all, I am entitled be considerate towards those who do a good job..as indeed I was to you when you invented PON codes 3 years back and prosletised in here.

I gave up once PON was dumped with no warning and suddenly replaced with Loc8 and with no cross conversion or upconversion capability. My PON code became inoperable overnight. I indicated my displeasure in this thread at the time.

So now we have PON(RIP) Loc8 Gocode and Ians Openpostcode system together with whatever fannyballs the DCENR comes up with no doubt.

Thankfully the openpostcode system in a mashup with openstreetmap will make for a most interesting and OPEN SOURCE alternative to that shaggin geodirectory. I would ask Ian whether he can bound and bundle codes within an ED ...because if so game on.

I think codes changing is a bit of a headache; but as long as they are a different grammatical format then there should be no confusion - but having a converter however seems odd between PON and Loc8code. I suppose more of the problems of closedsource.

To answer your question directly; excuse my ignorance, but what is an "ED"?

thirty-six dragons · 19-07-2011 12:09pm

garydubh wrote: »

All of these are indeed possible with Loc8 Code integrated into the appropratiate applications or devices that provide the functionality listed - most not the requirements of every day users. However many are available to Loc8 Code users through dedicated web services/applications which they have access to. Also GPS Ireland provides Hangle software which would provide the basis for most of what you need.

If you want to do something specific then all is required is to contact Loc8 Code directly and they'll assist you. I don't think you answered before if your proposed project is an in-house one? Do you have access to GIS software?

So basically you're confirming that loc8codes can't do it except through "dedicated web services/applications". Is this how we want the entire country's postcode system to be shrouded!?

Hangle appears to have no functionality related to loc8codes.

I also distrust any proposal that hides the price tag. GPS Ireland, you should let them know, don't have the price for their Hangle software displayed. Or is it "haggle" software.

What is most worrying is that you think there is something called an "every day user" that has no intelligent requirements. Have you even considered a use-case analysis. Your every-day-user is running a business, buying things on donedeal and trying to stay local, giving directions to parties, planning the best location for an event, conjuring up the fairest location for a works night-out, organising deliveries, planning plumbing jobs, trying to find a local electrician in a directory, mapping clients for meals-on-wheels, wondering where the nearest beach from her house is. Whatever you can think of.

But anyway; we have our answer.

To the everyday user, loc8codes are meaningless - might as well be random.

If you need geolocation services you will have to pay an undisclosed amount to GPS Ireland.

bk · 19-07-2011 12:38pm

garydubh I've always had a great deal of respect when you developed PON codes. The idea really appealed to me, being much superior to a simple post code systems.

However I too am very uncomfortable with loc8codes being closed source and requiring a license. I don't think a national postcode system should ever be closed sourced and need to be licensed from a private company.

That isn't to say that you don't deserve to make money from your hard work and years of promoting these. That is why I hoped that when the government tender for a post code system, that they require that the winning tender be open sourced and made freely available for everyone to use and that the creator of the code makes their money off the tendering process and perhaps some ongoing activities (consultancy, development, etc.) in an open, non exclusive manner.

Now we have Ians open source alternative and while it mightn't be quiet as good as loc8codes (the 999 issue), I must say I'm much more comfortable with it being open source and freely available for everyone to use.

I hope both solutions are put forward for tendering for the national post code, that the best solution wins and that the winning solution is made open source and freely available.

thirty-six dragons · 19-07-2011 12:54pm

bk wrote: »

while it mightn't be quiet as good as loc8codes (the 999 issue), I must say I'm much more comfortable with it being open source and freely available for everyone to use.

Ehem! Not as good? It's way more precise and "999" is not an "issue". It would be a fine postcode, although since full OpenPostcodes are seven+checksum it would have to be 9999-999-Y and that is an approximately 3 metre radius which may or may not be a gooseberry bush and even if it was and you didn't just adore the symmetry of your new postcode you could pick another spot near your front door just the same.

By the way - the zipcode prefix for Ketchikan, Alaska, USA, is 999. The great state of Alaska is not complaining.

I have a feeling 9999-999-Y should start gearing up for a tourism bonus! Or maybe it's already a garda station - that would be cool. Nothing wrong at all with the address.

J. Healy-Rae
Skehanierin Lower
Listowel
Co. Kerry
9999-999-Y
Ireland

Does it look wrong to you?

thirty-six dragons · 19-07-2011 12:58pm

bk wrote: »

That isn't to say that you don't deserve to make money from your hard work and years of promoting these. That is why I hoped that when the government tender for a post code system, that they require that the winning tender be open sourced and made freely available for everyone to use and that the creator of the code makes their money off the tendering process and perhaps some ongoing activities (consultancy, development, etc.) in an open, non exclusive manner.

I agree. It would be the only fair democratic decision open to government.

bk · 19-07-2011 1:31pm

iantheteacher wrote: »

Ehem! Not as good? ...

Does it look wrong to you?

Yes, I'm afraid I'd prefer that vanity addresses such as 999 weren't possible.

But it isn't a big deal, I didn't realise your system offered greater fine level detail then loc8, that is obviously a big advantage.

But in the end, I believe the openness of your proposal is the biggest advantage.

thirty-six dragons · 19-07-2011 1:53pm

bk wrote: »

Yes, I'm afraid I'd prefer that vanity addresses such as 999 weren't possible.

But it isn't a big deal, I didn't realise your system offered greater fine level detail then loc8, that is obviously a big advantage.

But in the end, I believe the openness of your proposal is the biggest advantage.

It doesn't offer vanity addresses. 9999-999 is a set place. It's no different from locations on the Irish Grid or pleasing GPS locations: 52.22222,-9.9999 is a place on the Dingle peninsula.

I'm sure if we tried we'd find interesting loc8codes or gocodes. Hell, I can't drive the R512 without think it's 2 to the power of 9.

People are great at finding patterns, it's what we do. There are GoCodes that end in LMN8 - the Daleks will be delighted!

antoinolachtnai · 19-07-2011 2:27pm

garydubh wrote: »

No comprehensive address database for Ireland loaded. Memory already under pressure - some devices need added memory cards just to take map updates. SatNav manufacturers do not want additional costs and maintenance requirements - even the USB cable has to be purchased seperately these days!

Surely this will become less of an issue over time as non-volative memory becomes cheaper and cheaper? You can buy 4 Gb of memory stick for €4.25 at retail now. A directory of addresses and their codes will take 100 Mbytes at most. In practice, because the data is hierarchical, it will take much much less space than that.

Licensing the code is also a cost issue.

I understood you said it would contain road numbers - they vary in length thereby varying the code length?

the road segments could be numbered with a consistent length.

there is more to validation than using a string of numbers that someone can randomly create.

Yes. You really have to validate it against an actual database of operational codes to see if it is actually in issue. The code needs to be validated against the address. On the one hand loc8 provides this facility, and on the other hand it doesn't. It isn't really clear.

Anybody can use the published loc8 algorithm and create their own loc8 codes by whatever means they like and these codes could be of extremely poor quality. However, the user would not be aware of this problem until they found themselves lost.

not for over 750,000 properties (and farm businesses) or are we just looking after the lucky ones in some urban areas?

A low-cost code which brought customers to the nearest square mile or so would solve most of the actual practical delivery problems. The further granularity could be rolled out over a longer period to resolve the remaining problems.

Not deployed on devices as you know. Loc8 Code works on devices without the need for any related database.

There has to be a map database on the device. Otherwise it won't work, or will be useless.

The current implementation is dependent on the OSi/OSNI database.

You have to have a database of addresses to be able to validate codes against addresses. If you can't validate codes against addresses, the code is very difficult to rely on.

Loc8 Code is based on coordinates not GPS - suitable for use on any position determining device. It is mistakenly mis-understood that GPS uniquely creates coordinates - coordinates have existed long before GPS was ever developed.

GPS (NAVSTAR) has continuously exceeded design accuracy and availability requirements since development. True - GPS can be jammed and commercial users should take this into account - but truly this is not an ongoing concern for normal day to day use of GPS. I have used GPS almost every day for over 17 years in many parts of the world and this has never stopped me from doing what I needed to do when outside military controlled zones.

Don't have to go to Royal Academy of Engineering to hear that - I say it myself to my students routinely - but this is an issue for those in safety critical and high accuracy applications - not for basic day to day use. GPS is a multiple hundreds of billion dollar industry and is around to stay and GNSS is already here (Combined NAVSTAR, SBAS, GLONASS with COMPASS/BEIDOU coming and GALILEO trotting behind - plus INS in specialist use and eLoran proven)

Police, medical and ambulance services are critical services. Safety issues have arisen in relation to GPS users. Again, this highlights the importance of being able to validate codes, and validation is a lot more than just doing a sum.

The problem with GPS services is that if they fail it will be sudden and catastrophic. It has not really happened yet except to a very limited extent in small areas, but there is no reason why there could not be a much bigger event at any time.

I think it would be very difficult to use a LOC8 code could without a working GPS service.

Not the point;- Small Area Codes are designed for statistical use and to have roughly even numbers per code - Average 87 properties. To maintain the averages if a new estate is built (I know that seems unlikely right now but normality will return eventually and this could be commercial as well as domestic properties)

If a new estate is built it gets a new road/road segment number. It doesn't effect the houses around it. There is no requirement in the SA spec, that I know of to maintain a specified average number of houses. Sometimes splits would be needed, certainly, and it would be possible to cater for this in quite a controlled way by phasing in a second code as needed.

- then the area will have to be realigned - some houses may find themselves in a new code - this is a feature of traditional postcodes and very often results in appeals and litigation.

Can you give ten instances of these appeals and litigation that very often result with traditional postcodes?

Surveyors get things wrong by cm's not metres

I have never before read a claim of accuracy in centimetres for any map lower-scale than 1:100. OS in the UK works to levels of published accuracy which are as far as I know expressed in metres. I have never seen a published accuracy level for OSi but I would be surprised if theirs are not similar. There is no guarantee as to the accuracy of any given point on an OSi map.

- the same surveyors that produced the data used for the Small Area Codes you are proposing as the basis for a postcode.

Those SA boundaries are relative to street centrelines. Even if the map is out by a significant amount, it makes no difference to the area covered by the small area, because it is the roads, not a notional grid on the map that define the SA's.

Sure mistakes happen - but properties normally have been surveyed several times for several reasons before they get published. Once coordinates establsihed and Loc8 Code generated, then changes to the road network don't change the property location - satnav/map, navigator and mark 1 eyeball will deal with the road navigation issues.

Changes to the road network do not change property location, but they may change the access.

Manifestos (page 32), Oireachtas Report, Dail Record and Postal Bill as well as many other sources well documented in the public domain.

So it's not settled government policy.

Sponge Bob · 19-07-2011 4:14pm

iantheteacher wrote: »

To answer your question directly; excuse my ignorance, but what is an "ED"?

An electoral district, he fundamental statistical unit of the state ( there are 3000 odd of them). All stats are collated by ED....eg the census.

If you have a GIS program ( I recommend the superb Quantum GIS which is free) and can 'transform' on the fly from ITM75 or IG65 to WGS84 which is a one off operation then you may easily import a shapefile which will convert from one to t'other co - ordinate sets.

Most public data is stored in ITM75 or IG65 formats where most open source systems use WGS84. You can download the shape file here

http://census.cso.ie/censusasp/saps/boundaries/census2006_boundaries.htm

Your school catchment, an entity you referred to , is comprised of whole EDs according to the department of ed. Sometimes 1 sometimes up to 10.

But the main thing I like about it is the open source aspect ....that in a country with no money that has a clueless pack of fuknuts like DCENR trying to figure things out for us.

LordSutch · 19-07-2011 4:16pm

I've been reading about the introduction of Irish post codes for about three years now, so when will they be introduced ???

thirty-six dragons · 19-07-2011 4:27pm

LordSutch wrote: »

I've been reading about the introduction of Irish post codes for about three years now, so when will they be introduced ???

The minute you add one to your address. You don't need permission (especially if you add it where the house name goes!).

thirty-six dragons · 19-07-2011 4:40pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

An electoral district, he fundamental statistical unit of the state ( there are 3000 odd of them). All stats are collated by ED....eg the census.

If you have a GIS program ( I recommend the superb Quantum GIS which is free) and can 'transform' on the fly from ITM75 or IG65 to WGS84 which is a one off operation then you may easily import a shapefile which will convert from one to t'other co - ordinate sets.

Most public data is stored in ITM75 or IG65 formats where most open source systems use WGS84. You can download the shape file here

http://census.cso.ie/censusasp/saps/boundaries/census2006_boundaries.htm

Your school catchment, an entity you referred to , is comprised of whole EDs according to the department of ed. Sometimes 1 sometimes up to 10.

But the main thing I like about it is the open source aspect ....that in a country with no money that has a clueless pack of fuknuts like DCENR trying to figure things out for us.

As these boundaries are publicly available then it is of course possible to calculate the division bounding an OpenPostcode - it just depends upon by which polygon a point is contained. For general calculations a set of rules could easily be generated to quickly determine the corresponding district a particular whole region code, area code, site code or location code belongs to. Only along boundaries are rules likely to be detailed.

Purposefully I left the details of my example of school vague - there's enough about me already in this discussion - but our school is not restricted to any district, which makes mapping perhaps more interesting and necessary.

Sponge Bob · 19-07-2011 5:06pm

iantheteacher wrote: »

Purposefully I left the details of my example of school vague - there's enough about me already in this discussion - but our school is not restricted to any district, which makes mapping perhaps more interesting and necessary.

Grand. There will be a tender for a Postcode System once the Postcode Manager is appointed off the last tender early this year ...therefore the granularity of the Codes vis a vis population and households to be released as CSO Census data must be demonstrable.

I am only saying :cool:

You can experiment with the last census, eg rented houses vis a vis empty houses per ED

Data!

http://census.cso.ie/Census/TableViewer/tableView.aspx?ReportId=1344

http://census.cso.ie/Census/TableViewer/tableView.aspx?ReportId=76536

LordSutch · 19-07-2011 5:26pm

iantheteacher wrote: »

The minute you add one to your address. You don't need permission (especially if you add it where the house name goes!).

That's all very well and dandy, but I'm not talking about an unofficial code, I'm talking about a universally recognised Post Code as issued by An Post and launched by An Post in the same way RTE launched the new Digital TV/Radio service called Saorsat.

When is the official Post Code launch date?

Sponge Bob · 19-07-2011 5:29pm

An Post have such a postcode system for many years, perhaps even 15 - 20. They charge €70k for every copy of it. The end user ( public) is not entitled to know what their own code is.

Aard · 19-07-2011 5:48pm

So why go to the bother of reinventing the wheel if An Post have one that rolls pretty well already?

Sponge Bob · 19-07-2011 6:27pm

Aard wrote: »

So why go to the bother of reinventing the wheel if An Post have one that rolls pretty well already?

They were looking for millions a year for it...lets see if they get the Postcode Manager contract then

antoinolachtnai · 19-07-2011 6:39pm

An Post do not have a 'visible' code. It isn't really suitable for writing on an envelope.

LordSutch · 19-07-2011 6:42pm

This could drag on for years . . .

thirty-six dragons · 19-07-2011 8:11pm

LordSutch wrote: »

This could drag on for years . . .

Indeed. And imagine appointing a postcode manager! Like I need a manager to manage the name of my house. Or a manager for a code that the state post office has said it doesn't even want. Who are they going to manage it for? Maybe they'd like to come manage the favourites list on my Garmin while they're at it - just to make sure that I haven't been going to the wrong places all these years. The lunacy knows no bounds.

If you ask me it's just another excuse to have someone make money from the public funds - about as useful to an economy as sucking your own ... thumb.

Now if I could get the lazy feckers to actually deliver my mail rather than drop a slip of paper in my mailbox way down the laneway say he "missed me" and that I should drive a 40km roundtrip to collect it then I'd be doing well.

thirty-six dragons · 19-07-2011 8:12pm

Aard wrote: »

So why go to the bother of reinventing the wheel if An Post have one that rolls pretty well already?

Their wheel is a secret invisible wheel.

National Postcodes to be introduced

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