National Postcodes to be introduced

homer911

ash777 wrote: »

Does each and every house/business have a unique code? What about apartments? And, is there any continunuity, i.e., would Number 8, Random Street's code have any similarity to Number 9's?

Each postbox has a unique Eircode - each apartment in a block, each property in a duplex, each company in an office block.

Known exceptions are halting sites - the bay gets an Eircode, not the caravan; and mobile home sites, where the site office gets an Eircode. I also understand that in the case of bedsits, there is only one Eircode as bedsits are deemed temporary and generally share a postbox

threeiron

threeiron wrote: »

Only DCENR has added them!
DCENR: D02 X2852

... and DCENR has added an extra digit (2) to the unique identifier

Seth Brundle

Jack180570 wrote: »

The state owns both An Post and Ordnance Survey who in turn own the Geodirectory so they have the staff and the Geodirectory.

The only piece missing was the system. Loc8 offered their system to the State for free. That why there would be no cost to the State.

By assigning resources from these two companies, those resources would need to be replaced which is a cost. Or do you think people sit around An Post & OSI all day sipping on mugs of coffee?

Jack180570

Eircode really is being now shown for the limited and almost unnecessary system that it is.
According to the Eircode people and Government it was designed to make postal deliveries more efficient - but An Post has 97/98% next day delivery, so it doesn't need it.

On the other hand we have a necessity for a location system to help direct the Ambulances, Firebrigades, Doctors, Gardai, Dept Officials, Tourists, Farmers, Foresters, Taximen, County Council Workers, Archaeologists, etc to various locations such as Road Traffic Accidents, Fires, Medical Emergencies, Farm Accidents, Forest Fires, Burst Water Pipes, Historic Sites, Tourists Attractions, Oil Spils, .....

Hundreds of people who need to find the quickest and easiest way of getting to their destination and we have a €27m Eircode that cannot do this for the people.... is this a success? or one of the greatest failures and missed opportunities of our time?

Calahonda52

threeiron wrote: »

... and DCENR has added an extra digit (2) to the unique identifier

gone: 21: 52
Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, 29-31 Adelaide Road, Dublin 2, Ireland
Tel +353-1-6782000 Fax +353-1-6782449 Eircode D02 X285

homer911 wrote: »

halting sites - the bay gets an Eircode,

What about the gelding? he will be going nuts

Jack180570

kbannon wrote: »

By assigning resources from these two companies, those resources would need to be replaced which is a cost. Or do you think people sit around An Post & OSI all day sipping on mugs of coffee?

No I don't think that, do you? Of course there would be a cost to the State but it would not be a fraction of the €27m for the state as they would not have to pay for the use of the Geodirectory or the technology which was offered free by Loc8 Code to the State.

Seth Brundle

Jack180570 wrote: »

No I don't think that, do you? Of course there would be a cost to the State but it would not be a fraction of the €27m for the state as they would not have to pay for the use of the Geodirectory or the technology which was offered free by Loc8 Code to the State.

No problem - automatically defensive when I hear people nowadays saying that something could be / should be free.

PK2008

Jack180570 wrote: »

No I don't think that, do you? Of course there would be a cost to the State but it would not be a fraction of the €27m for the state as they would not have to pay for the use of the Geodirectory or the technology which was offered free by Loc8 Code to the State.

Loc8 or any code for that matter do not have the full list of postal addresses in ireland. Only geo directory have this, any code would have to map to the geo directory database inless they could generate the full list themselves and i cannot see how they could do this.

GerardKeating

ukoda wrote: »

Just the law

Like it stop's the torrenting of movies, music and the like...?

PK2008

I think the Loc8 thing is also a red herring. Im sure its a good system but the only recognised database which contains all irish addresses mapped to Geo codes is Geo directory, its been on sale for years I cant see how Loc8 or anyone else would be able to roll out their code without it. No matter how good your code generation system you would still need access to the Geo Directory unless you tried to somehow generate the 2.2 million addresses yourself which would be a mammoth task.

The code generation itself is a relatively small and automated factor in the overall infrastructure- all you really need to be able to do is generate a unique id and map it to the geo directory database, the geo codes are already there. The code design just has to fit certain requirements such as removing swear words etc, but unique code generation is not rocket science for expert DBAs.

We could have had multiple different codes that worked but to deliver any major national infrastructure project you need many more factors and on this one I imagine being able to align to An Posts routing keys was a major success factor.

People give out about the An Post thing but lets be honest, you wouldnt have a snow balls chance in hell rolling out a national postcode unless it fit with the National postal service provider

PS: I also think the word 'Free' is being used loosely by these companies- if we are talking about the actual code generation then I can beleive that, as I said code generation can be easily automated but there are alot more costs (and experience required) when rolling out national infrastructure

Calahonda52

Calahonda52 wrote: »

What about the gelding? he will be going nuts

They've already been posted.

Jack180570

PK2008 wrote: »

Loc8 or any code for that matter do not have the full list of postal addresses in ireland. Only geo directory have this, any code would have to map to the geo directory database inless they could generate the full list themselves and i cannot see how they could do this.

So we agree

TheBustedFlush

Jack180570 wrote: »

Basically the Government could have chosen Loc8 Code instead of Eircode, and the other benefit would be that it would have cost them €0, zero.... but that would have required basis cop on...

No they couldn't have chosen Loc8code.

It met only one or two of the criteria used for the code design.

If location codes had been considered, then obviously the location code system - GO Code - that had actually tendered and been shortlisted would have been used.

Loc8 wasn't free since the design had to be bought out according to them. And the code design was only a fraction of the overall cost to implement the system.

PK2008

Jack180570 wrote: »

So we agree

I honestly dont much about Loc8, im sure its probably a good system, but the fact is they would have to pay for Geo Directory, like everyone else. Providing a code generation system is probably one of the easiest elements. Im not sure why Loc8 vode was not considered but when you pitch for a big project like this you have to have a lot of experience in national infrastructure projects (or partner with someone who does).

threeiron

Calahonda52 wrote: »

gone: 21: 52

It may be on different pages (check Contact page).

Head office: 29 - 31 Adelaide Road, Dublin, D02 X2852
Tel: +353-1-678 2000, LoCall: 1890-44-99-00

threeiron

threeiron wrote: »

It may be on different pages (check Contact page).

Head office: 29 - 31 Adelaide Road, Dublin, D02 X2852
Tel: +353-1-678 2000, LoCall: 1890-44-99-00

I expect that a lot of businesses & government departments will be tapped for their postcodes over the next few days.

dr.fuzzenstein

kbannon wrote: »

No problem - automatically defensive when I hear people nowadays saying that something could be / should be free.

People who say postcodes or water is free anyway and we're somehow being screwed for it usually belong to the unicorn pooping rainbows and fluffy kittens school of economics. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.
And: what is the percentage of GDP spent on eircode? Its infentesimal! Its peanuts, small change, cheap as chips. I'm sure the government spends more on stamps.
Bertie spent more on makeup and no one batted an eyelid.

MarkK

I think people are being unrealistic in expecting fast adoption.

The UK was postcoded in stages between the mid sixties and 1974.
Ten years later they will still encouraging people to adopt them.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Jack180570

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

No they couldn't have chosen Loc8code.

It met only one or two of the criteria used for the code design.

If location codes had been considered, then obviously the location code system - GO Code - that had actually tendered and been shortlisted would have been used.

Loc8 wasn't free since the design had to be bought out according to them. And the code design was only a fraction of the overall cost to implement the system.

I believe you need to check your facts BustedFlush...

1. Loc8 code met ALL of the design criteria - Eircode didnt, until they changed the criteria recently.

2. go code would NOT have been used if the Government had done its job properly because it would have been a more expensive and poorer system than Loc8 Code.

3. Loc8 Code WAS free, was PROVEN and WORKING when it was offered to the Government for FREE

dr.fuzzenstein

Fred Swanson wrote: »

I am happy so long as they don't become compulsory.

Well, when dealing with government and banks, you may have to. If you don't want to use it for your mail, no, the same way you don't have to dial the full phone number, use the entire email address or say what you want in the shop.

Jack180570

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

People who say postcodes or water is free anyway and we're somehow being screwed for it usually belong to the unicorn pooping rainbows and fluffy kittens school of economics. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.
And: what is the percentage of GDP spent on eircode? Its infentesimal! Its peanuts, small change, cheap as chips. I'm sure the government spends more on stamps.
Bertie spent more on makeup and no one batted an eyelid.

€27 million is 'infentesimal'... really? Tell that to the terminally ill children who this Government withdrew medical card from...

ukoda

Jack180570 wrote: »

I believe you need to check your facts BustedFlush...

1. Loc8 code met ALL of the design criteria - Eircode didnt, until they changed the criteria recently.

2. go code would NOT have been used if the Government had done its job properly because it would have been a more expensive and poorer system than Loc8 Code.

3. Loc8 Code WAS free, was PROVEN and WORKING when it was offered to the Government for FREE

1. So it didn't meet the design criteria

2. That's only your opinion

3. The design was offered for free, the cheapest part, loc8 code licence their code and you pay them for it. And for that fee you don't even get an address out of it. Just a box on the grid that may or may not have a house / any thing of interest in it.

It would be crazy to have a national POSTcode that has no link to our national POSTAL address database.

ukoda

Jack180570 wrote: »

€27 million is 'infentesimal'... really? Tell that to the terminally ill children who this Government withdrew medical card from...

Maybe loc8 code shouldn't have spent money on developing a code and instead donated it to charity?

TheChizler

Jack180570 wrote: »

No I don't think that, do you? Of course there would be a cost to the State but it would not be a fraction of the €27m for the state as they would not have to pay for the use of the Geodirectory or the technology which was offered free by Loc8 Code to the State.

GeoDirectory is owned by an post, a semi state, the state can't just transfer IP out of it to a competing database without some sort of compensation.

Liam Duggan from Eircode was on Ireland Live there, he confirmed my hunch that they were intentionally non-sequential and not entirely random, it was designed so that similar codes would not resolve to nearby properties, and that a combination of code and address would act as a self verification when providing details to a courier or the national ambulance service.

There's more complex work going on in the background of the design, entirely non trivial.

Jack180570

PK2008 wrote: »

I honestly dont much about Loc8, im sure its probably a good system, but the fact is they would have to pay for Geo Directory, like everyone else. Providing a code generation system is probably one of the easiest elements. Im not sure why Loc8 vode was not considered but when you pitch for a big project like this you have to have a lot of experience in national infrastructure projects (or partner with someone who does).

We live in rural Ireland and are involved in Agriculture/Forestry along with Search & Rescue. We have been using Loc8 Codes with 3 or 4 years and have found them brilliant, not obviously for delivering post to houses, but in delivering goods to farms, farm outbuildings, collecting and delivering to forests, fighting forest fires and compiling fire plans for forests, searching for missing persons and assisting the Gardai and Emergency Services.

Loc8 Codes allow us to direct resources and dispatch people to any location in Ireland without losing valuable time. It allows to make a delivery or collection from any building, any specific spot in the country without spending ages getting lost or delivering/collecting from the wrong location.

I have seen the Eircode system and it simply is not going to be ANY USE AT ALL FOR US.... because even if it is a house with a correct Eircode we want to get to, we cant get to it using an Eircode because satnavs don't support Eircodes.

Eircode is a disaster for the ordinary person.

ukoda

Jack180570 wrote: »

We live in rural Ireland and are involved in Agriculture/Forestry along with Search & Rescue. We have been using Loc8 Codes with 3 or 4 years and have found them brilliant, not obviously for delivering post to houses, but in delivering goods to farms, farm outbuildings, collecting and delivering to forests, fighting forest fires and compiling fire plans for forests, searching for missing persons and assisting the Gardai and Emergency Services.

Loc8 Codes allow us to direct resources and dispatch people to any location in Ireland without losing valuable time. It allows to make a delivery or collection from any building, any specific spot in the country without spending ages getting lost or delivering/collecting from the wrong location.

I have seen the Eircode system and it simply is not going to be ANY USE AT ALL FOR US.... because even if it is a house with a correct Eircode we want to get to, we cant get to it using an Eircode because satnavs don't support Eircodes.

Eircode is a disaster for the ordinary person.

Great that you all managed to buy a Garmin sat nav to be able to do all that. Or did you all pay the €5 for the point8 app (that doesn't give directions) so you could use your "free" code.

And eircode isn't supported on sat navs YET. was loc8 on all sat navs from day 1 of launch?

oscarBravo

Jack180570 wrote: »

... really does show up Eircode for the rubbish, inaccurate system it is.... couldn't even get the location of Shannon Airport correct

I just checked, and the Eircode for the terminal building at Shannon Airport - V14 EY29 - has the location exactly right. If you can't distinguish a location from a postal address, that's hardly Eircode's fault.

We seem to have lost the ability as a nation to offer reasoned, proportionate criticism. If something isn't perfect in every conceivable way, then it's the greatest disaster to have ever befallen us in our benighted history. There can be no middle ground.

PK2008

Jack180570 wrote: »

We live in rural Ireland and are involved in Agriculture/Forestry along with Search & Rescue. We have been using Loc8 Codes with 3 or 4 years and have found them brilliant, not obviously for delivering post to houses, but in delivering goods to farms, farm outbuildings, collecting and delivering to forests, fighting forest fires and compiling fire plans for forests, searching for missing persons and assisting the Gardai and Emergency Services.

Loc8 Codes allow us to direct resources and dispatch people to any location in Ireland without losing valuable time. It allows to make a delivery or collection from any building, any specific spot in the country without spending ages getting lost or delivering/collecting from the wrong location.

I have seen the Eircode system and it simply is not going to be ANY USE AT ALL FOR US.... because even if it is a house with a correct Eircode we want to get to, we cant get to it using an Eircode because satnavs don't support Eircodes.

Eircode is a disaster for the ordinary person.

Thats fair enough and I dont see any reason why you cannot continue to use your Loc8 code to meet your needs.

Im sure eircodes will be used in navigation devices soon given they have geo codes linked, but if your needs are already being met by Loc8 then this is surely irrelevant to you?

I think we have different definitions of the word 'disaster', but for a lot of people living with non unique addresses this is a major step forward.

TheBustedFlush

Jack180570 wrote: »

I believe you need to check your facts BustedFlush...

1. Loc8 code met ALL of the design criteria - Eircode didnt, until they changed the criteria recently.

2. go code would NOT have been used if the Government had done its job properly because it would have been a more expensive and poorer system than Loc8 Code.

3. Loc8 Code WAS free, was PROVEN and WORKING when it was offered to the Government for FREE

I'm not wrong. The code design criteria issued during the tender process are the ones I am referring to. There's about ten of them.

Loc8 chose not to tender, even though other SMEs were able to, and they did not have to meet the €40m turnover requirement. If the Govt had done its job properly? you mean bypass all tendering procedures and just the gig to one company that you want to get it? Yes, I'm sure that would have worked.

You have no way of knowing that an alternative code system would have been more expensive or poorer since you weren't involved in the selection process ( I assume).

Loc8 was not free - you've admitted yourself that it had a cost - and so did they. It was not proven and working in 2011 since it had only been around for about 6 months at that point.