National Postcodes to be introduced

LeinsterDub

secman wrote: »

Why not use an existing Road refetence, makes absolute sense to me to incorporate it into the new one. Why have 2 separate references to a an address ?. Like building 2 Luas lines on Dublin and not linking them ..... oh wait. ...

How would that work? some roads go on for miles. How would you narrow it down?

FishOnABike

ash777 wrote: »

Does each and every house/business have a unique code? What about apartments? And, is there any continunuity, i.e., would Number 8, Random Street's code have any similarity to Number 9's?

No, there is no continuity. I checked two neighbouring houses. The first three characters (routing code) are the same but the last four characters are totally different / random between two adjacent houses. Their routing code covers an irregular shaped area roughly 30 km by 30 km, the remaining four characters are no help in identifying where in this 900 sq km a house is without having to lookup the eircode database. This is the main problem detracters have with the eircode 'solution'.

TheBustedFlush

My favourite article of the day goes to Conor Pope, arch consumer writer for the Irish Times.

He opened his article with the line:

"Before we answer that can we just say a big hello from D02CX09..." This was accompanied by a screen shot of The Irish Times Eircode and map which clearly read D02 CX89.

Unfortunately, they've fixed it now....

PK2008

The biggest problem eircodes solve is the non unique address problem which constitutes 30 - 35% of all Irish addresses. These addresses are prodominantly in rural areas where no sequencing or agreed patterns to base a sequence exist.

The sequencing used in urban areas is often intuitive based on the order of housing but this simply is not an option in rural areas where houses can be miles apart. To sequence housing in rural areas would be a nightmare and not sustainable. Even urban address sequencing is not fool proof with houses being demolished / converted to flats etc.

With eircodes you will be able to plan routes based on geo codes and in these previously non unique areas. If a business chooses not to use the technology then they are putting themselves at a disadvantage to their competitors.

TheChizler

FishOnABike wrote: »

No, there is no continuity. I checked two neighbouring houses. The first three characters (routing code) are the same but the last four characters are totally different / random between two adjacent houses. Their routing code covers an irregular shaped area roughly 30 km by 30 km, the remaining four characters are no help in identifying where in this 900 sq km a house is without having to lookup the eircode database. This is the main problem detracters have with the eircode 'solution'.

That's fully intentional though, sequential codes would be prone to error, and what happens when a house is built in the middle of two? Given the way roads diverge and converge it would be impossible to make a fully sequential code sequence in a one-code-per-property system, there would have to be arbitrary points where the sequence breaks.

TheBustedFlush

PK2008 wrote: »

The biggest problem eircodes solve is the non unique address problem which constitutes 30 - 35% of all Irish addresses. These addresses are prodominantly in rural areas where no sequencing or agreed patterns to base a sequence exist.

The sequencing used in urban areas is often intuitive based on the order of housing but this simply is not an option in rural areas where houses can be miles apart. To sequence housing in rural areas would be a nightmare and not sustainable. Even urban address sequencing is not fool proof with houses being demolished / converted to flats etc.

With eircodes you will be able to plan routes based on geo codes and in these previously non unique areas. If a business chooses not to use the technology then they are putting themselves at a disadvantage to their competitors.

TheChizler wrote: »

That's fully intentional though, sequential codes would be prone to error, and what happens when a house is built in the middle of two? Given the way roads diverge and converge it would be impossible to make a fully sequential code sequence in a one-code-per-property system, there would have to be arbitrary points where the sequence breaks.

No one has asked for sequential codes, so I'm not sure what argument you're making...

TheChizler

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

No one has asked for sequential codes, so I'm not sure what argument you're making...

Lots of people have. You mentioned continuity, if you don't mean continuous allocation of codes, i.e. sequential what do you mean?

FishOnABike

Jack180570 wrote: »

On the other hand we have a necessity for a location system to help direct the Ambulances, Firebrigades, Doctors, Gardai, Dept Officials, Tourists, Farmers, Foresters, Taximen, County Council Workers, Archaeologists, etc to various locations such as Road Traffic Accidents, Fires, Medical Emergencies, Farm Accidents, Forest Fires, Burst Water Pipes, Historic Sites, Tourists Attractions, Oil Spils, .....

Hundreds of people who need to find the quickest and easiest way of getting to their destination and we have a €27m Eircode that cannot do this for the people....

Eircode can be used to do most of this, but only indirectly through reference to the eircode database to translate the code into a grographical location. This database access will have a cost to all these organisations. A cost which could have been avoided if a self referencing heirarchical grid based code with embedded geographical information had been selected instead of the random code we have now.

I can see the benefit of a central canonical record linking addresses and their post codes if only to facilitate online sites who couldn't get their head around the fact that we haven't had post codes up to now.

However the eircode design forces other users into having to reference the eircode database. A step and cost which would not be necessary if a self contained geo-type code was used.

dr.fuzzenstein

Jack180570 wrote: »

I have seen the Eircode system and it simply is not going to be ANY USE AT ALL FOR US.... because even if it is a house with a correct Eircode we want to get to, we cant get to it using an Eircode because satnavs don't support Eircodes.

Eircode is a disaster for the ordinary person.

Go to eircode site, look up code, tap get directions and map app pops up. Simples!

PK2008

FishOnABike wrote: »

Eircode can be used to do most of this, but only indirectly through reference to the eircode database to translate the code into a grographical location. This database access will have a cost to all these organisations. A cost which could have been avoided if a self referencing heirarchical grid based code with embedded geographical information had been selected instead of the random code we have now.

I can see the benefit of a central canonical record linking addresses and their post codes if only to facilitate online sites who couldn't get their head around the fact that we haven't had post codes up to now.

However the eircode design forces other users into having to reference the eircode database. A step and cost which would not be necessary if a self contained geo-type code was used.

I cannot understand this 'database lookup' argument. To be clear, the most comprehensive database of postal addresses in ireland is the Geo Directory, regardless of what code you use you must get your address data from the Geo Directory database and pay for it, unless you wish to compile your own database of over 2 million irish address points. As far as i know no other provider comes close to the geo directory coverage. If Loc8 or any other code was chosen it would need to map to Geo Directory and pay them.

Jack180570

oscarBravo wrote: »

I just checked, and the Eircode for the terminal building at Shannon Airport - V14 EY29 - has the location exactly right. If you can't distinguish a location from a postal address, that's hardly Eircode's fault.

We seem to have lost the ability as a nation to offer reasoned, proportionate criticism. If something isn't perfect in every conceivable way, then it's the greatest disaster to have ever befallen us in our benighted history. There can be no middle ground.

OscarBravo, you are an administrator but I must respectfully disagree with you.
Eircode.ie lists the address for Shannon Airport as 'Co Limerick'. This information I am quoting is from the Eircode website, is incorrect, and is Eircodes fault. It is after all, Eircode's website, not the Geodirectory's website.

On your second point I have to disagree also. We are generally hopeless at complaining. We put up with incompetence to the degree that hardly any other nation does, until recently. Since the recession, we have started to question more and more, and as we have, the scandals have come out one after another. So I am correct to describe Eircode as a disaster, it is in comparison to the 21st century digital code we were promised.
Eircode is so far from 'perfect' that an American Postcodes Body has even questioned as to whether it satisfies the international criteria of being a postcode.

It cannot direct an ambulance to a road traffic accident, it cant do so many thing that it needs to be able to do, and if Loc8 Code was chosen, could have done... in this respect it is a disaster.

PK2008

Jack180570 wrote: »

OscarBravo, you are an administrator but I must respectfully disagree with you.
Eircode.ie lists the address for Shannon Airport as 'Co Limerick'. This information I am quoting is from the Eircode website, is incorrect, and is Eircodes fault. It is after all, Eircode's website, not the Geodirectory's website.

On your second point I have to disagree also. We are generally hopeless at complaining. We put up with incompetence to the degree that hardly any other nation does, until recently. Since the recession, we have started to question more and more, and as we have, the scandals have come out one after another. So I am correct to describe Eircode as a disaster, it is in comparison to the 21st century digital code we were promised.
Eircode is so far from 'perfect' that an American Postcodes Body has even questioned as to whether it satisfies the international criteria of being a postcode.

It cannot direct an ambulance to a road traffic accident, it cant do so many thing that it needs to be able to do, and if Loc8 Code was chosen, could have done... in this respect it is a disaster.

If Loc8 was chosen it would have to get its address data from the Geo Directory as well. Unless Loc8 have their own database of 2.2 million Irish addresses?

seamus

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It will become de facto compulsory. Service providers will require it when filling out forms, employers will be required to collect it when filing returns, revenue will insist that all income tax returns include, DSW will insist all dole recipients provide it.

What may even happen is that An Post will require it for franked mail only, which probably covers 90% of the letter mail in the country.

And they may begin a process of fast-tracking postcoded mail as the resources available to sort uncoded mail are reduced - perhaps even putting stickers on mail letting you know that your mail will arrive sooner if you include a postcode. Ten years later and uncoded mail will take a week versus 2 days for normal mail.

No, it'll never be compulsory, but there are other ways of making it so that you don't really have any choice.

TheChizler

Jack180570 wrote: »

OscarBravo, you are an administrator but I must respectfully disagree with you.
Eircode.ie lists the address for Shannon Airport as 'Co Limerick'. This information I am quoting is from the Eircode website, is incorrect, and is Eircodes fault. It is after all, Eircode's website, not the Geodirectory's website.

On your second point I have to disagree also. We are generally hopeless at complaining. We put up with incompetence to the degree that hardly any other nation does, until recently. Since the recession, we have started to question more and more, and as we have, the scandals have come out one after another. So I am correct to describe Eircode as a disaster, it is in comparison to the 21st century digital code we were promised.
Eircode is so far from 'perfect' that an American Postcodes Body has even questioned as to whether it satisfies the international criteria of being a postcode.

It cannot direct an ambulance to a road traffic accident, it cant do so many thing that it needs to be able to do, and if Loc8 Code was chosen, could have done... in this respect it is a disaster.

The Eircode finder is for finding Eircodes, not for finding a type of address for your property. It does however use the GeoDirectory as a reference to help you find your code, and post the code to your property.

Were you able to find the Eircode for Shannon Airport on the website? Clearly yes, therefore you have achieved your goal, unless you had some hope to achieve a goal that the system isn't designed to accomplish.

Jack180570

TheChizler wrote: »

The Eircode finder is for finding Eircodes, not for finding a type of address for your property. It does however use the GeoDirectory as a reference to help you find your code, and post the code to your property.

Were you able to find the Eircode for Shannon Airport on the website? Clearly yes, therefore you have achieved your goal, unless you had some hope to achieve a goal that the system isn't designed to accomplish.

I wasn't looking for the address of the property, but the Eircode website displayed the wrong address. Which means that Eircode has provided the wrong address for Shannon Airport. Which means that the Eircode site is providing incorrect information, which you are trying to say is.... right, ok etc.

We are the laughing stock of Europe with Eircode. Today the BBC printed an article
'Eircode: Shannon airport relocates under Ireland's new postcode system'...
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33510924?SThisFB&fb_ref=Default

Yes I achieved my goal, which was to see if the Eircode system was good, clearly its not.

FishOnABike

TheChizler wrote: »

That's fully intentional though, sequential codes would be prone to error, and what happens when a house is built in the middle of two? Given the way roads diverge and converge it would be impossible to make a fully sequential code sequence in a one-code-per-property system, there would have to be arbitrary points where the sequence breaks.

Continuous in the sense of having a deterministic pattern, not sequential in the enumerative sense. Any location in the country can be identified to an arbitrary level of accuracy using a grid e.g. lattitude and longatude, the OS grid reference, etc. Another location can always be specified between any two locations. Any code is prone to user error but an error with a random code is only verifiable through a look up.

PK2008

FishOnABike wrote: »

Continuous in the sense of having a deterministic pattern, not sequential in the enumerative sense. Any location in the country can be identified to an arbitrary level of accuracy using a grid e.g. lattitude and longatude, the OS grid reference, etc. Another location can always be specified between any two locations. Any code is prone to user error but an error with a random code is only verifiable through a look up.

All address points map to geo codes in the geo directory, why would we layer on additional grid references when we already have the geo codes?

Eircodes provides the missing link by removing non unique addresses. Now we have every address with a unique id mapped to a geo code, this is exactly what we needed.

PK2008

Jack180570 wrote: »

I wasn't looking for the address of the property, but the Eircode website displayed the wrong address. Which means that Eircode has provided the wrong address for Shannon Airport. Which means that the Eircode site is providing incorrect information, which you are trying to say is.... right, ok etc.

We are the laughing stock of Europe with Eircode. Today the BBC printed an article
'Eircode: Shannon airport relocates under Ireland's new postcode system'...
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33510924?SThisFB&fb_ref=Default

Yes I achieved my goal, which was to see if the Eircode system was good, clearly its not.

There is clearly confusion between an eircode and An Posts postal addresses. The shannon, limerick address existed as the An Post postal address in the Geo Directory before eircode came along. Any code provider would have had to use this postal address, loc8 or otherwise because it is An Posts postal address. Eircode may have highlighted but this along with non unique addresses is the very reason we have eircodes, so we can have a indusputable point of reference for an addres (ie the geo code which maps to the eircode).

We have many embarrassing legacy addressing issues in Ireland, but they were there before eircode

G_R

Jack180570 wrote: »

I wasn't looking for the address of the property, but the Eircode website displayed the wrong address. Which means that Eircode has provided the wrong address for Shannon Airport. Which means that the Eircode site is providing incorrect information, which you are trying to say is.... right, ok etc.

We are the laughing stock of Europe with Eircode. Today the BBC printed an article
'Eircode: Shannon airport relocates under Ireland's new postcode system'...
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33510924?SThisFB&fb_ref=Default

Yes I achieved my goal, which was to see if the Eircode system was good, clearly its not.

Had loc8 been chosen, and they were to assign their codes to the GeoDirectory, it would still have listed Shannon Airport as Limerick, as that is the way it is recorded in the GeoDirectory.

As far as I understand it, the reason it's recorded as Limerick is because that's where their mail gets sorted.

No one is disputing the fact that Shannon Airport is in Co. Clare, but the postal system doesn't follow county boundaries - it follows its own postal boundaries.

Once this is integrated with SatNavs etc - it won't even look at the address - it will look at the co-ordinates, which are 100% accurate.

I'm really finding it hard to understand the faux outrage tbh.

Avada

Jack180570 wrote: »

OscarBravo, you are an administrator but I must respectfully disagree with you.
Eircode.ie lists the address for Shannon Airport as 'Co Limerick'. This information I am quoting is from the Eircode website, is incorrect, and is Eircodes fault. It is after all, Eircode's website, not the Geodirectory's website.

On your second point I have to disagree also. We are generally hopeless at complaining. We put up with incompetence to the degree that hardly any other nation does, until recently. Since the recession, we have started to question more and more, and as we have, the scandals have come out one after another. So I am correct to describe Eircode as a disaster, it is in comparison to the 21st century digital code we were promised.
Eircode is so far from 'perfect' that an American Postcodes Body has even questioned as to whether it satisfies the international criteria of being a postcode.

It cannot direct an ambulance to a road traffic accident, it cant do so many thing that it needs to be able to do, and if Loc8 Code was chosen, could have done... in this respect it is a disaster.

How would you find the loc8 code? By going online on your phone. You can just find the nearest property with eircode and do the same.

TheChizler

Jack180570 wrote: »

I wasn't looking for the address of the property, but the Eircode website displayed the wrong address. Which means that Eircode has provided the wrong address for Shannon Airport. Which means that the Eircode site is providing incorrect information, which you are trying to say is.... right, ok etc.

We are the laughing stock of Europe with Eircode. Today the BBC printed an article
'Eircode: Shannon airport relocates under Ireland's new postcode system'...
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33510924?SThisFB&fb_ref=Default

Yes I achieved my goal, which was to see if the Eircode system was good, clearly its not.

At the risk of sounding accusing I can't help but feel you're being deliberately obtuse at this point. As has been pointed out this is not an address in the conventional sense, it is a "postal address" which does not carry the same criteria in forming it as a conventional "geographic address". It will generally be of the form house, road, town land, local sorting office, county of local courting office. It is not geographically based. They point this out multiple times on their website. An Post are the only ones who can declare whether a "postal address" is correct or not. As they do not publicize their route map there is no way to categorically state whether a "postal address" is incorrect or not, beyond details like house name or spelling, which there are a few examples of but they're in the minority. Eircode don't claim to provide a "geographical address".

The aim of the website is to provide a code to someone which they may search for based on a "postal address" or data from a few other sources, including a map which will remove all doubt if you are unsure what your "postal address" is. It also provides the opposite, the "postal address" and a location on a map if you input an Eircode. If you came to the website looking to obtain an Eircode based solely on a "geographical address" or a "geographical address based on an Eircode then unless the two addressing systems happen to be the same for the property you are looking up then you're going to be disappointed, as this is a service that Eircode provide or claim to provide.

That's all I'm saying on the matter as we're going around in circles at this point.

FishOnABike

PK2008 wrote: »

All address points map to geo codes in the geo directory, why would we layer on additional grid references when we already have the geo codes?

Eircodes provides the missing link by removing non unique addresses. Now we have every address with a unique id mapped to a geo code, this is exactly what we needed.

And what do you think the geo code is or is correlated to in the geo directory ?

Using a randomly generated eircode rather than a hierarchical code which facilitated calculating the location from the address code and vice versa is more beneficial to the geo directory owner than the code end users.

Bayberry

Victor wrote: »

Accusing people of "weasel words" is quite inappropriate.

Moderator

It has been claimed that eircodes are flawed because they require a database lookup in order to determine an exact location - true or false

That's the quote that I applied that description to. No quote was provided to substantiate this charge.

Wikipedia wrote:

A weasel word (also, anonymous authority) is an informal term for words and phrases aimed at creating an impression that a specific and/or meaningful statement has been made, when only a vague or ambiguous claim has been communicated, enabling the specific meaning to be denied if the statement is challenged.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word

That's wikipedias definition of weasel words.

The phrase "It has been claimed" very clearly meets the Wikipedia definition, if you have an objection to the actual phrase "weasel word" please provide a functional equivalent.

I can see how the rest of that particular post might fall under the don't be a dick guideline, but I find it hard to understand how pointing out that another poster is being deliberately misleading, using a widely understood descriptive phrase is more objectionable than actually making misleading claims in the first place. (Not that sophistry doesn't have it's place, but a user should be able to challenge it when they see it).

I know that challenging a mod is asking for trouble, but I think that the phrase that you dinged me for using was accurate and justified in this case, and other occurrences of the same phrase in other threads have not been challenged.

Bayberry

homer911 wrote: »

Theoretically a sorting machine can sort all letters into the final delivery order based on the Eircode - this will make life easier for the postman who comes to your door

What happens on the day that there no post for the 2nd house on the route? Does the automatic sorting machine put a blank spacer in for that eircode, or does the 2nd house get the 2nd lot of mail in the batch that actually belongs to the 3rd house and so on?

Trouwe Ier

Grand_Rajnah wrote: »

Had loc8 been chosen, and they were to assign their codes to the GeoDirectory, it would still have listed Shannon Airport as Limerick, as that is the way it is recorded in the GeoDirectory.

As far as I understand it, the reason it's recorded as Limerick is because that's where their mail gets sorted.

No one is disputing the fact that Shannon Airport is in Co. Clare, but the postal system doesn't follow county boundaries - it follows its own postal boundaries.

Once this is integrated with SatNavs etc - it won't even look at the address - it will look at the co-ordinates, which are 100% accurate.

I'm really finding it hard to understand the faux outrage tbh.

Agreed.

In fact to nit pick completely the Eircode finder states "LIMERICK" and not. "Co. LIMERICK" for Shannon.

For donkey's years, post for Shannon has come through Limerick. Clare is a peninsular county, there is only one national primary route (the N18/M18) passing through, with a stub (the N19) into the airport.

All that happened yesterday was that this phenomenon was publicised more.

However, in fairness to Clare people, it may have been better if the databases had been altered to show "Co. Clare" and some mechanism put in place to ensure that as long as the correct Eircode was shown, mail would still be routed through Limerick delivered efficiently.

And likewise in a similar manner for Roscommon and Kilkenny etc.

As I understand it, putting "Co. Clare" on any mail bound for east or south Clare (and a bit of south east Co. Galway) in the past has resulted in a delay as such mail would be sent to Ennis first and then bounced on to Limerick.

To a far lesser extent, there are similar issues with Galbally "Co. Tipperary", Kilbehenny "Co. Cork" etc.

As posted in the funny pictures thread, what's missing???

Trouwe Ier

Trouwe Ier wrote: »

Agreed.

In fact to nit pick completely the Eircode finder states "LIMERICK" and not. "Co. LIMERICK" for Shannon.

For donkey's years, post for Shannon has come through Limerick. Clare is a peninsular county, there is only one national primary route (the N18/M18) passing through, with a stub (the N19) into the airport.

All that happened yesterday was that this phenomenon was publicised more.

However, in fairness to Clare people, it may have been better if the databases had been altered to show "Co. Clare" and some mechanism put in place to ensure that as long as the correct Eircode was shown, mail would still be routed through Limerick delivered efficiently.

And likewise in a similar manner for Roscommon and Kilkenny etc.

As I understand it, putting "Co. Clare" on any mail bound for east or south Clare (and a bit of south east Co. Galway) in the past has resulted in a delay as such mail would be sent to Ennis first and then bounced on to Limerick.

To a far lesser extent, there are similar issues with Galbally "Co. Tipperary", Kilbehenny "Co. Cork" etc.

It will be interesting to see how long it will take for the postcode to be used to direct mail rather than the written address, in the UK for example all mail is sorted using the postcode.

WE could have a situation where the postcode (Athlone Westmeath) is ignored and the mail still going to Roscommon town before being redirected to Athlone for delivery in south Roscommon.

CrowdedHouse

I hope it works out for a colleague of mine - he lives in a place called Kylemore,<comma> Abbey Co Galway but items of post for him regularly go to Kylemore Abbey (tourist attraction) also Co Galway but in Connemara probably 150Km away.

Often heard him say jaysus when are we getting post codes!

dr.fuzzenstein

Bayberry wrote: »

What happens on the day that there no post for the 2nd house on the route? Does the automatic sorting machine put a blank spacer in for that eircode, or does the 2nd house get the 2nd lot of mail in the batch that actually belongs to the 3rd house and so on?

(I think we can assume that postie is still allowed to use his own brain and other sensory organs when delivering mail)

tvc15

[Deleted User] wrote: »

As posted in the funny pictures thread, what's missing???

Technically the postcode is part of your address so could be put in the address box but Eircode need some better PR, on the radio this morning the head of Eircodes didn't even seem prepared for the Shannon in Limerick question, apparently there's an easy fix just to use the 'geographical' version of the address which they have from GeoDirectory! Why someone couldn't figure out on day one that this would be an issue, one tiny change to the website could have stopped half the criticism from the general public