National Postcodes to be introduced

formerly scottish paddy

Type an Eircode into their website search and bingo you can see the actual property on a detailed map.............try doing that with a UK postcode!

Tenshot

Another interesting titbit I came across: the use of digits-only in the unique ID portion of Eircode was considered but rejected, because it was felt people would be too inclined to use them as PIN codes, alarm codes, etc. introducing a security risk once someone knew your postal code. (source)

larchill

plodder wrote: »

Apparently, Portmarnock has been in D13 for some time, but didn't know it. There are a couple of other similar cases. Also "A" is not exclusive to South Dublin. There are "A" areas in north Dublin too, and probably elsewhere.

Drogheda is A92, & Dundalk A91 covering all of Louth as far as I can see.

larchill

TheChizler wrote: »

This is an excellent spot, the amount of data the database supports is staggering. They include fields like common misspellings of addresses, previous details, verification level of Irish translations, groups etc. Not an easy database to design, integrate, and manage. The actual codes themselves actually are only the tip of the iceberg.

Now ye know what you're paying all the € for There's a lot more to this than meets the eye.

TheBustedFlush

Interesting quote from union representing Ambulance workers about rollout of Eircode:

SIPTU Health Division Organiser Paul Bell said:

“Despite claims that ambulance professionals should use satellite navigation systems to get to the scene of an emergency that approach has been deemed to be unreliable in the UK. In some cases its use has resulted in tragic circumstances that could have been avoided.....Currently, there are two command and control rooms which direct ambulance personnel to the scene of an accident anywhere in the country. That is the most effective way of dealing with an accident or emergency. Addresses are based on a directory supplied by An Post, which has the most up-to-date database. I would expect that to continue until our members’ concerns are dealt with.

Using satnav to get to the scene of an emergency has been deemed to be unreliable.

Loc8 has to be used on a satellite navigation system.......and doesn't have a database of addresses.

Eircode is not available on satnavs, and uses the same database of addresses supplied by An Post.

Schadenfreudia

Are they here yet?
Are they here yet?
Are they here yet?

mayway

plodder wrote: »

Apparently, Portmarnock has been in D13 for some time, but didn't know it. There are a couple of other similar cases. Also "A" is not exclusive to South Dublin. There are "A" areas in north Dublin too, and probably elsewhere.

Seriously? Portmarnock is in Dublin 13? When did that happen?

Does anyone know?

ukoda

https://vimeo.com/132084090

The TV ad for eircode

tvc15

Another question about Eircodes PR, where are the maps with all the routing keys are located? There wasn't even a list of routing keys published anywhere I've looked for them, do they even correspond to a named place each?

Sam Russell

tvc15 wrote: »

Another question about Eircodes PR, where are the maps with all the routing keys are located? There wasn't even a list of routing keys published anywhere I've looked for them, do they even correspond to a named place each?

They are all secret. Privacy issue.

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

They are all secret. Privacy issue.

They've said they won't map them themselves but 3rd parties probably will.

They are all available so it's no secret

D.L.R.

larchill wrote: »

Drogheda is A92, & Dundalk A91 covering all of Louth as far as I can see.

Given Dun Laoire is A96, this suggests that the "letter zones" are not contiguous.

Which begs the question, why not?

I can't for the life of me see how this situation is preferable to the whole Dublin area sharing the same letter. And indeed other geographic areas.

Bonkers logic, really.

Sam Russell

As a country we have had some spectacular own goals when it comes to infrastructure*. This is just one more, and not the most expensive one but it is not over yet. The worst thing could be that the Eircode will just be ignored.

* Irish Water; eVoting; Luas lines not joining up so we had two depots; West Link that cost €13m, but was bought out by the state for €500m after causing massive congestion on a major motorway because the operators refused to have better toll collection; Motorway PPPs that are subsidised by the state because not enough tolls are collected (eg Limerick Tunnel); etc. etc. etc.

At least we are not Greece.

TheBustedFlush

tvc15 wrote: »

Another question about Eircodes PR, where are the maps with all the routing keys are located? There wasn't even a list of routing keys published anywhere I've looked for them, do they even correspond to a named place each?

There are no maps of routing keys.

There is a list of routing keys.

They said over a year ago that they wouldn't correspond to a named place each.

efb

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

Interesting quote from union representing Ambulance workers about rollout of Eircode:

SIPTU Health Division Organiser Paul Bell said:

“Despite claims that ambulance professionals should use satellite navigation systems to get to the scene of an emergency that approach has been deemed to be unreliable in the UK. In some cases its use has resulted in tragic circumstances that could have been avoided.....Currently, there are two command and control rooms which direct ambulance personnel to the scene of an accident anywhere in the country. That is the most effective way of dealing with an accident or emergency. Addresses are based on a directory supplied by An Post, which has the most up-to-date database. I would expect that to continue until our members’ concerns are dealt with.

Using satnav to get to the scene of an emergency has been deemed to be unreliable.

Loc8 has to be used on a satellite navigation system.......and doesn't have a database of addresses.

Eircode is not available on satnavs, and uses the same database of addresses supplied by An Post.

Unions obviously want to protect jobs for their members, but look at the incident in Scotlanf it was human error, not technology that appears to have failed.

BailMeOut

Sam Russell wrote: »

As a country we have had some spectacular own goals when it comes to infrastructure*. This is just one more, and not the most expensive one but it is not over yet. The worst thing could be that the Eircode will just be ignored.

How can you say this is an 'own goal' already? I am reading this forum and a lot of other online resources about as well as as many technical docs I can find and to me Eircode seems to be very well designed and thought out system. So what if the PR folks there were not tweeting or doing all the press stuff. From everything I have read about its design it is really good, very scalable, the database is unbelievably small considering how much data it has (so very portable) and I have no doubt it will be successful. It does what it says on the tin very well, i.e. precisely map every address in the country. Lastly it is self funding so not going to cost us anything to keep going.

TheChizler

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

Using satnav to get to the scene of an emergency has been deemed to be unreliable.

Loc8 has to be used on a satellite navigation system.......and doesn't have a database of addresses.

Eircode is not available on satnavs, and uses the same database of addresses supplied by An Post.

I think that's a bit untrue, they would both get you the exact coordinates of the destination, how you navigate there has nothing really to do with the code. If loc8 had been the winning code they would have had to map the GeoDirectory to the primary loc8 code for the address anyway.

seamus

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

Using satnav to get to the scene of an emergency has been deemed to be unreliable.

This is not because SatNav systems cannot locate addresses, this is because SatNav routing has yet to prove itself more reliable than local knowledge, and usually doesn't have access to good live data about roadworks and traffic volumes.

This is why ambulances services don't use SatNav for getting around and instead tend to rely on the direction of the control room.

However in terms of locating the actual property, loc8 and eircode are equivalent. The only difference being the nature of the code. When the eircode database is offline (and it will go offline every now and again), emergency control rooms will not be able to use it.
Loc8 codes are not dependent on the availability of a 3rd party's servers.

plodder

mayway wrote: »

Seriously? Portmarnock is in Dublin 13? When did that happen?

Does anyone know?

As someone else pointed out, you could be receiving your mail (in Portmarnock) out of the D13 sorting office for years maybe, without knowing it. But, now with Eircodes this structure in all its glory is there for the world to see.

None of the dublin postcode maps show it by the way. This is the list of other areas in the same situation.

The Ward, Dublin 11
Baily, Dublin 13
Howth, Dublin 13
Portmarnock, Dublin 13
Tibradden, Dublin 16
Loughlinstown, Dublin 18
Kilternan, Dublin 18
Newcastle, Dublin 22
Saggart, Dublin 24
Rathcoole, Dublin 24

TheChizler

seamus wrote: »

However in terms of locating the actual property, loc8 and eircode are equivalent. The only difference being the nature of the code. When the eircode database is offline (and it will go offline every now and again), emergency control rooms will not be able to use it.
Loc8 codes are not dependent on the availability of a 3rd party's servers.

The database is being provided as downloads with quarterly updates, the data will be local to whoever's using it.

BailMeOut

seamus wrote: »

When the eircode database is offline (and it will go offline every now and again), emergency control rooms will not be able to use it.
Loc8 codes are not dependent on the availability of a 3rd party's servers.

The full Eircode database does not require 2Gb of space to store on a device. This is another apples and oranges example, using the size of the full text export of the entire ECAD database. The file size of an off-line version of the Eircode database that compares with Loc8, i.e. a postcode and a coordinate, is 30Mb. Without compression. If you want to have the address as well, and do so in the least optimised manner, the file approaches 100mb. An optimised file format would be less than 70mb. Top selling mobile games approach 500mb in size. Eircode will fit on a Sat-Nav, and is easily downloaded to a mobile phone for off-line use.

assuming the info in this blog is correct.

Aimead

These are back in the thread but I wanted to respond:

oscarBravo wrote: »

After that, if you want to decide on your route, you need to be looking at a road map anyway.

Well, yeah. We’ve a stack of maps and even have a portable stand for when we are at loading locations with, shall we say, walls not conducive to the use of blu-tac.

The point is that at no stage during the planning process are we reliant on an internet connection, which would be the case with Eircode. Give me a list and a map and I’m good to go. Most people would do a decent job with just GPS and a map too.

But, to come full circle, I can’t help feeling that the point you are trying to raise here is one giant strawman though. No one seriously does routing without a map, so I don’t quite get what you think you’ve demonstrated. Maybe I’m being slow today, and if so could you reiterate it for me please?

---

ukoda wrote: »

Let's be real here, no customers are going to be giving you their geo code or loc8 code / open postcode etc

You really REALLY don’t have a clue about deliveries do you? When we send out quotations, to take an example, we actually include information for how to place orders when it comes to delivery addresses. Other times it is the sales rep who sends in the coordinates or whatnot (some items, like equipment or furniture, require a room to be measured beforehand for example).

People who live in the back arse of nowhere have full knowledge how difficult it can be to locate them, and in our experience the overwhelming majority of people will do what they can to make finding them easier when you give them options.

You get 15 look ups free per day, given that you seem to be delivering large and unusual shaped items I doubt you would have more than 15 in any one days delivery, but if you did you could pay for access as economy of scale kicks in.

Just today we’ve a delivery of milking parts for Cork and Kerry, and we’d have run through the 15 limit easily. That’s also ignoring the small matter of needing internet access out at some of the warehouses we work from.

---

clewbays wrote: »

Your company, like FTAI, just needs to invest in the 21st century. While you are driving towards your next pick-up point, an integrated software package can be given the details of the packages you are going to pick up and your delivery sequence is being re-optimised.

Right now if you are doing the simplest case of the travelling salesman problem with over 13 locations you’re already running into computational problems. And that’s the simplest case with only one truck, no multiple loading points and no transhipments. As of today, 2015, the best published algorithm can only guarantee getting within 49% of optimal.

Any software doesn’t actually have to find an optimal solution since, to put it bluntly, those aren’t feasible (or even provable). The word ‘optimisation’ in this field is a bit of a misnomer in that regard. What it does have to do, though, is generate good solutions that at least equal what folks like me can do with a pen and paper. That’s not to say that there won’t be a serious new research breakthrough that will change all of that, but when you consider that the last major breakthrough in the field was in 2012 and reduced the upper limit from 50% to 49.999% of optimal then I’m not exactly holding my breath. You’re getting awful close to P=NP territory at this point.

If you’re really interested start a new thread and I can go into the research behind this field in depth.

TheChizler wrote: »

A hierarchical post code does nothing for multiple addresses within buildings, unless you add a field for height above ground or something at the expense of making the code longer.

What’s the issue with that?

The disadvantage of having to look up a database (if all you have is a code) when trying to find find a location can be overcome with a minute amount of planning.

The whole thing just screams ‘central point of failure’ for me. With every other code or coordinate system out there you are reliant on one particular server (or cluster of servers) being up and running.

---

The saddest thing about all of this is that, in truth, Loc8 isn’t anything revolutionary. It really isn’t. It is simply an algorithm that matches GPS to a code with a few checksums thrown in. That’s it in a nutshell.

You could take any code or coordinate system and link it to a database for validating addresses. So why was a code designed that completely obliterated all the useful functionality that comes with being hierarchical???? That totally bakes my head – particularly when you consider the brief that was produced by the consultation process (which was then tossed for no reason).

I defy any person to try making the argument that Eircode, in its current form, is better than if loc8 had been linked to An Posts directory. At that point every argument made in favour of Eircode would accrue to database-loc8 with all the goodness that comes with being hierarchical still being present.

TheChizler

What's with the recurring idea that Eircode is tied to an internet connection? Databases can exist on any device, they can exist on paper if you want them to.

TheChizler

Aimead wrote: »

I defy any person to try making the argument that Eircode, in its current form, is better than if loc8 had been linked to An Posts directory. At that point every argument made in favour of Eircode would accrue to database-loc8 with all the goodness that comes with being hierarchical still being present.

Just going to answer this bit because I really don't have time. The combination of address/Eircode allows not just for error checking, but error correction. If somebody makes a mistake in their address, eg 12 instead of 21 or the wrong name of a road or something, or makes a mistake in the Eircode like swapping two characters or getting a character wrong, the system has been designed so that you can a) detect the error, as nearby properties have intentionally been allocated very different codes, and b) correct the error in either address or code most of the time, as if the Eircode resolves to somewhere in the locality given by a slightly wrong address it must be correct, and the property can be pinpointed, or if the code is slightly wrong and the address mostly correct there will only be one code in that area similar to the incorrect code.

Loc8 includes a check character so you can tell when the code is wrong, but then if the address isn't unique or contains a mistake you end up having to locate the property by other means. There is no ability to correct errors in the code as nearby properties will have inherently similar codes.

FishOnABike

PK2008 wrote: »

I cannot understand this 'database lookup' argument. To be clear, the most comprehensive database of postal addresses in ireland is the Geo Directory, regardless of what code you use you must get your address data from the Geo Directory database and pay for it, unless you wish to compile your own database of over 2 million irish address points. As far as i know no other provider comes close to the geo directory coverage. If Loc8 or any other code was chosen it would need to map to Geo Directory and pay them.

No, if a geo-based postal code (go-code, loc8, open-location-code, whatever else is in the mix... ) was used, a delivery service would not need to get your address data from the Geo Directory database and pay for it or to compile their own database of over 2 million irish address points.

Consider a delivery to
<Random Housename>
<Townsland>
<Postal Town>
E1R C0DE

A two way transform generated geo location based E1R C0DE would allow the delivery service precisely locate the intended delivery location without need for any external reference.

A randomly assigned, unstructured E1R C0DE needs an external reference or a local copy of that reference (with the attendant problem of keeping it up to date) to associate it with a precise delivery location.

The introduction of postal codes was an opportunity to do the smart thing. I think the opportunity has been squandered.

BailMeOut

Just today we’ve a delivery of milking parts for Cork and Kerry, and we’d have run through the 15 limit easily. That’s also ignoring the small matter of needing internet access out at some of the warehouses we work from.

no - what will happen is that milk trucks will eventually have devices on board that have the Eircode database and can use and lookup as many locations at they want any any time. This is all coming as we see people now develop systems around Eircode.

The whole thing just screams ‘central point of failure’ for me. With every other code or coordinate system out there you are reliant on one particular server (or cluster of servers) being up and running.

not true - the database would exist locally and not dependent on the internet or systems at Eircode being up.

I defy any person to try making the argument that Eircode, in its current form, is better than if loc8 had been linked to An Posts directory. At that point every argument made in favour of Eircode would accrue to database-loc8 with all the goodness that comes with being hierarchical still being present.

Take for an example where two locations are on a map right next to one another but if you want to drive from one to the other involves a long diversion. Example places opposite one another on a river but crossing is a long ways away. or some piece of terrain or mountain between them. This is something Loc8 cannot help as it can never help with accessibility.

FishOnABike

Avada wrote: »

How would you find the loc8 code? By going online on your phone. You can just find the nearest property with eircode and do the same.

I live in an area where 3G coverage is patchy at best so having to find the eircode / go-code / loc8 code or whatever by going online is not practical.

If the code could be generated from my location using an algorithm I could use my phone's coarse triangulation from the available 2G signal or switch on its GPS to get a more accurate location and have a small app calculate my postal code. There would have been no need to rely on being able to go online.

ukoda

So despite all the Twitter backlash, this poll going around Twitter is telling isn't it

Tenshot

Seamus wrote:

The full Eircode database does not require 2Gb of space to store on a device. This is another apples and oranges example, using the size of the full text export of the entire ECAD database. The file size of an off-line version of the Eircode database that compares with Loc8, i.e. a postcode and a coordinate, is 30Mb. Without compression. If you want to have the address as well, and do so in the least optimised manner, the file approaches 100mb. An optimised file format would be less than 70mb. Top selling mobile games approach 500mb in size. Eircode will fit on a Sat-Nav, and is easily downloaded to a mobile phone for off-line use.

BailMeOut wrote: »

assuming the info in this blog is correct.

This blog calculates the actual mobile space requirements in some detail. The whole thing will fit in less than 20 MB without much effort (still not compressed).

Adding basic addresses (compressed with .zip) increases it to about 60 MB total.

ukoda

Tenshot wrote: »

This blog calculates the actual mobile space requirements in some detail. The whole thing will fit in less than 20 MB without much effort (still not compressed).

Adding basic addresses (compressed with .zip) increases it to about 60 MB total.

This is excellent, proves that eircode will fit on every sat nav being sold and smartphones without the need for Internet access. You'd only need Internet access periodically to get the updates pushed to the device.