National Postcodes to be introduced

GJG

Aimead wrote: »

I defy any person to try making the argument that Eircode, in its current form, is better than if loc8 had been linked to An Posts directory. At that point every argument made in favour of Eircode would accrue to database-loc8 with all the goodness that comes with being hierarchical still being present.

I'm certainly not slagging Loc8 code but it's not a postcode, it doesn't pretend to be, and it doesn't do things that we need a postcode to do.

I have a relatively small terraced house and I have generated three Loc8 codes that are valid for my house, plus a fourth that is valid both for me and my neighbour.

Bungalows on large rural plots can have dozens of valid Loc8 codes. Now, that's fine for many applications; it doesn't make Loc8 useless, but it does mean that Loc8 does not meet some specific requirements that we badly need a postcode to do.

Loc8 has a many-to-many relationship with properties. Eircode has a one-to-one relationship.

Insurance fraudsters thrive in a setting where there is no reliable way to systematically check whether a property, or someone in it, is insured more than once. You can bet that within a month, it will not be possible to renew an insurance policy without giving your Eircode. At a stroke, problem solved.

When employment minister, Mary Harney ordered an investigation into persistently high long-term unemployment during the boom. A sample of claims were analysed in depth, and it was found that 10 per cent of them related to addresses that did not exist. Dole? Eircode please! - problem solved.

There are a host of other compliance issues from TV licencing to verifying principal private residence for CGT where the actual property, not just a 6m2 area that occurs close to it, must be identified.

A simply immovable fact is that Eircode is one-to-one and Loc8 is not.

If you argue there is not a single application that we need a one-to-one tracking of properties, then grand; but it appears to me that there are lots of applications for that.

plodder

BailMeOut wrote: »

Take for an example where two locations are on a map right next to one another but if you want to drive from one to the other involves a long diversion. Example places opposite one another on a river but crossing is a long ways away. or some piece of terrain or mountain between them. This is something Loc8 cannot help as it can never help with accessibility.

And what will Eircode do for me here, summon a bridge or a tunnel into existence ..?

@GJG again I'm not here to spin for loc8, but every house has a defined location in the geodirectory. The loc8 code for that location could have been assigned as the official postcode for it (apartment units are the problem). The fact that not all loc8 codes would be official postcodes shouldn't be any more of a problem than the fact that many many 7 character codes that look like Eircodes, aren't. There are many ways to skin a cat.

FishOnABike

formerly scottish paddy wrote: »

Type an Eircode into their website search and bingo you can see the actual property on a detailed map.............try doing that with a UK postcode!

This is one thing I agree they have done very well. I can enter my eircode or any one of a number of variants of my address and I get a detailed, zoom-able map or satellite view centred on my house.

plodder

FishOnABike wrote: »

This is one thing I agree they have done very well. I can enter my eircode or any one of a number of variants of my address and I get a detailed, zoom-able map or satellite view centred on my house.

True, it means the whole hoo-ha about delivering the codes is moot. I suspect some postmen who can't figure out where to deliver them will just leave them all in one house and ask one person to go online to sort it out.

bk

seamus wrote: »

This is not because SatNav systems cannot locate addresses, this is because SatNav routing has yet to prove itself more reliable than local knowledge, and usually doesn't have access to good live data about roadworks and traffic volumes.

This is why ambulances services don't use SatNav for getting around and instead tend to rely on the direction of the control room.

While this maybe the official line, from the emergency services personal I know, they absolutely use their own smartphones and google maps on a daily basis, in particular in rural Ireland.

I've not doubt that Eircodes will end up becoming a valuable tool to them as well, though I do believe a loc8 type code that was tied to Geo Directory would have been better for them and everyone.

I can't imagine Eircode not happening. Imagine the following scenario we have before today. Mary rings emergency services because her husband is having a heart attack. She tells them the address that se has always used Mary, Some Town, Some County, which she has always used and which the local postman has never had any problem with due to local knowledge.

Unfortunately, the person in the control center is 50 miles away and has no local knowledge. They pass the address along to the ambulance crew who are based 30 miles away and have only limited knowledge of the area in question and end up wasting time driving around back roads in the area looking for the address that they don't really know. The house could be anywhere on a 5 miles stretch of road!

Now switch to today. Mary gives her Eircode to the control center, the control center looks it up against the Eircode database and sees the actual address and double checks with Mary if that is her address. The control center passes along both the Eircode and address to the ambulance and the ambulance crew types it into Google Maps and end up being directed to within meters of the actual house where the emergency is happening.

I don't see how Eircode doesn't help get emergency services to people faster once people learn their code and get use to it. Specially in rural Ireland.

However unfortunately an Eircode is much less useful for Mountain and Coastal Rescue services (or ambulances to a field in rural Ireland). This is where a loc8 code would be helpful.

A loc8 type code could identify the location of literally any object. It would be very useful for the ESB and Eircom for identifying the locations of their poles, ducts, etc. Which could in turn help with emergency services.

Imagine you crash in rural Ireland, just walk to the next ESB/Eircom poles and read the loc8 type code off the sign printed on the pole and tell emergency services.

I don't think Eircode is bad, it is much better then most other postcode systems, however I think we could have built a much better combined location/postcode system given the opportunity we had.

GJG

plodder wrote: »

@GJG again I'm not here to spin for loc8, but every house has a defined location in the geodirectory. The loc8 code for that location could have been assigned as the official postcode for it (apartment units are the problem). The fact that not all loc8 codes would be official postcodes shouldn't be any more of a problem than the fact that many many 7 character codes that look like Eircodes, aren't. There are many ways to skin a cat.

I don't spin for noone...

But, yes sure, there would be other ways to do it.

However, the modifications to Loc8 that you are suggesting mean that it's not Loc8 any more and a 50m2 apartment sits in a square with a side of about 7m2, so there is certainly no guarantee that it there would be one Loc8 for each apartment in, say, a six-storey block - Loc8 gives a code to each square in the country with a side of 6m2, so another modification would be required.

One main 'advantage' of Loc8 was that it didn't need a database, but your suggestion would neutralise that. For sure what you are suggesting could work, but I don't really see the rational of saying that in order to avoid using Eircode, switch to Loc8 and then modify Loc8 to make it more like Eircode.

Also, at this point I find it difficult to credit any claims by Loc8. We were told with absolute assurance that

• UCD was only getting one Eircode
• The Rock or Cashel would get no Eircode
• The database would take up 2GB

Each of those has turned out to be entirely false, so I'm minded to treat all other claims that can't be independently verified with caution.

Aimead

TheChizler wrote: »

The combination of address/Eircode allows not just for error checking, but error correction.

Let me rephrase my objection this way: can you cite any reason that error correction and being hierarchical must be exclusive? I don’t see any difficulty in making an alteration to loc8 that would add this functionality. I also don’t see, if we were designed a completely new code from scratch, why this couldn’t be done.

All that is really being done here is mapping onto a Hamming code, so why not do so in a way that preserves all the advantages of being hierarchical?

Small note – if you link loc8 to a database then, for the subset of ‘real’ addresses, you’d get error correction

There is no ability to correct errors in the code as nearby properties will have inherently similar codes.

With the current form of loc8 there is a lot of correctable errors as it stands. It wouldn’t take much work to extend it to all single digit errors or single reversals.

My objection is quite simple. Hierarchical codes give a LOT of functionality simply due to being hierarchical. Why was all that functionality chucked when, for every single advantage people cite for Eircode, those advantages could be done within a hierarchical structure?

---

BailMeOut wrote: »

no - what will happen is that milk trucks…

???? I think you may have missed what I was saying….

And, in any event, I suspect you’re wrong anyway because some of the sheds we’ve delivered to don’t seem to have been assigned Eircodes since those locations never get mail.

not true - the database would exist locally and not dependent on the internet or systems at Eircode being up.

I’ll have to wait for that to get leaked then, but it’s good to know that local copies will be available. Wonder what the cost and restrictions will be though.

Take for an example where two locations are on a map right next to one another but if you want to drive from one to the other involves a long diversion.

Why are people ITT assuming that people who work in this field are brain-dead and wouldn’t use a map to avoid issues like that? And, even moreso, why are you presenting an issue that Eircode itself suffers from as a defense to Eircode????

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GJG wrote: »

I'm certainly not slagging Loc8 code but it's not a postcode, it doesn't pretend to be,…

I get that, I really do. The point I’m making is that there is no valid reason why advantages that a system like loc8 gives couldn’t be replicated with Eircode. Think of how little it would take to alter loc8 for the purpose of preserving the advantage of hierarchy while getting the (supposed) benefits of Eircode? All you’d need is to link the subset of ‘real’ addresses generated by the code to your database and you’re done. You could map all loc8 codes for a given area to the same database entry to solve the multiple code issue. The supposed ‘problems’ are all trivially solves. And yes, I do mean ‘trivially’.

Loc8 only gets cited because it has advantages that Eircode does not. There is no reason, at least none that holds up to a moment’s scrutiny, that a code like loc8 couldn’t be married to database.

So, I ask again, why were all the advantages of being hierarchical dropped? The bit that really frustrates me about this thread is in how so many people seem determined to manufacture ‘problems’ without even thinking through how easy these so-called ‘problems’ can be solved.

Sam Russell

If Eircode is a random code, then a non-random code can perform all the same functions. This is axiomatic.

The advantages of a random code have been dumped because 'vanity' (for want of a better name) are not allowed - eg D02 RTE1.

Non-geographic codes are not allowed - eg Social Welfare or Revenue or HSE or other pan-Ireland organisations.

Routing codes cover huge areas and are not logically setup.

There is not even hierarchy in the routing codes.

All in all, a poor effort.

Aimead

bk wrote: »

Now switch to today. Mary gives her Eircode to the control center…

In my lifetime I’ve had to ring for an ambulance 5 times. And in each case I was in another person’s house or on another person’s land. I’m not sure I would have known what the house’s Eircodes would have been. One of the cases involved a tree falling which started the cattle, and when they bolted the farmer could caught in the stampede. It turned out not to be serious, but I sure as **** didn’t know that at the time. Problem: I was in the back arse of nowhere on plot of land that has never received any mail. I was vaguely familiar with the townlands, but if it weren’t for GPS I wouldn’t have been able to give usable directions. As it stands, I could have generated a loc8 code for that but, as far as I understand it, there is no way to generate an Eircode for a situation like that.

It’s hard to say how many people who are ringing for an ambulance would actually have a hope of knowing (or have access to) an Eircode.

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GJG wrote: »

One main 'advantage' of Loc8 was that it didn't need a database, but your suggestion would neutralise that.

I can’t speak for the other poster, but this would be false. There should be an algorithmic conversion from code to GPS. The database aspect can provide other features, but this crucial conversion shouldn’t need it.

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Sam Russell wrote: »

If Eircode is a random code, then a non-random code can perform all the same functions. This is axiomatic.

Pretty much this ^^^^.

seamus

bk wrote: »

unfortunately an Eircode is much less useful for Mountain and Coastal Rescue services (or ambulances to a field in rural Ireland). This is where a loc8 code would be helpful.

Though unless you're also close to something else that has a Loc8 code in this instance (like a telephone pole), then you would still need a device that gives you a Loc8 code. The same device of course which can give you GPS coordinates.

Loc8 I suppose would ensure that the relayed code is less likely to have errors, but provided that someone provided GPS coords to 3 decimal places, then the emergency services will be able to find them.

ukoda

Aimead wrote: »

In my lifetime I’ve had to ring for an ambulance 5 times. And in each case I was in another person’s house or on another person’s land. I’m not sure I would have known what the house’s Eircodes would have been. One of the cases involved a tree falling which started the cattle, and when they bolted the farmer could caught in the stampede. It turned out not to be serious, but I sure as **** didn’t know that at the time. Problem: I was in the back arse of nowhere on plot of land that has never received any mail. I was vaguely familiar with the townlands, but if it weren’t for GPS I wouldn’t have been able to give usable directions. As it stands, I could have generated a loc8 code for that but, as far as I understand it, there is no way to generate an Eircode for a situation like that.

It’s hard to say how many people who are ringing for an ambulance would actually have a hope of knowing (or have access to) an Eircode.

---

I can’t speak for the other poster, but this would be false. There should be an algorithmic conversion from code to GPS. The database aspect can provide other features, but this crucial conversion shouldn’t need it.

---

Pretty much this ^^^^.

If you are at a non address location then the emergency services should be able to access your phones location without the user having to do a single thing. This technology already exists.

Putting forward the idea of generating a postcode from your GPS chip on your phone using an app is adding an extra layer of user complexity to an already tense and stressful situation.

Whoever thinks generating a postcode for an accident is a good idea, fails to see how unnecessary it actually is. We should be pushing for a service like E112 or even right now, there's an app in the Irish App Store that you can use to call emergency services from and it texts them your geo co ordinates.

Loc8 or any other code for emergencies is redundant and out dated.

TheChizler

seamus wrote: »

Though unless you're also close to something else that has a Loc8 code in this instance (like a telephone pole), then you would still need a device that gives you a Loc8 code. The same device of course which can give you GPS coordinates.

Loc8 I suppose would ensure that the relayed code is less likely to have errors, but provided that someone provided GPS coords to 3 decimal places, then the emergency services will be able to find them.

Correct me if I'm wrong but it was posted here before, there is a system in use by the ambulance service where the 999/112 operator texts the person calling on their mobile a link which when clicked on, sends the phone's location data to their system.

plodder

GJG wrote: »

I don't spin for noone...

But, yes sure, there would be other ways to do it.

However, the modifications to Loc8 that you are suggesting mean that it's not Loc8 any more and a 50m2 apartment sits in a square with a side of about 7m2, so there is certainly no guarantee that it there would be one Loc8 for each apartment in, say, a six-storey block - Loc8 gives a code to each square in the country with a side of 6m2, so another modification would be required.

One main 'advantage' of Loc8 was that it didn't need a database, but your suggestion would neutralise that. For sure what you are suggesting could work, but I don't really see the rational of saying that in order to avoid using Eircode, switch to Loc8 and then modify Loc8 to make it more like Eircode.

Also, at this point I find it difficult to credit any claims by Loc8. We were told with absolute assurance that

• UCD was only getting one Eircode
• The Rock or Cashel would get no Eircode
• The database would take up 2GB

Each of those has turned out to be entirely false, so I'm minded to treat all other claims that can't be independently verified with caution.

I wasn't suggesting you were spinning - literally just saying I'm not rooting on behalf of loc8 and a lot of the stuff that is said on their behalf is nonsense, I agree.

Having said that, it's not true that loc8 would need to be changed to do the above. Loc8 is simply a means of converting a lat/long to an alphanumeric code. If you consider that the Geodirectory contains an official location (ie lat/long coordinates) of every building in the state, then that information could be used to output the loc8 codes for each of these buildings. This is still fully compatible with loc8 and isn't changing it.

It falls down on the requirement for multiple codes within the same building, but they probably could have coped with that by tacking on an extra digit or two on the end, but that would not look very good. And frankly, I'm not entirely convinced that separate codes for properties within the same building was a good idea. But sin scéal eile.

Aimead

ukoda wrote: »

If you are at a non address location then the emergency services should be able to access your phones location without the user having to do a single thing. This technology already exists.

This is news to me. If this is so then why hasn’t it ever been used when I called for an ambulance?

Loc8 or any other code for emergencies is redundant and out dated.

I actually agree, but I think the point that underlies this (that loc8 can reference arbitrary locations while Eircode can’t) still holds. The whole project was a great opportunity to standardise a locational code for Ireland, a piece of national infrastructure that could facilitate and aid a wide range of areas, but sadly that would have been too sensible.

bk

seamus wrote: »

Though unless you're also close to something else that has a Loc8 code in this instance (like a telephone pole), then you would still need a device that gives you a Loc8 code. The same device of course which can give you GPS coordinates.

Loc8 I suppose would ensure that the relayed code is less likely to have errors, but provided that someone provided GPS coords to 3 decimal places, then the emergency services will be able to find them.

True, but then what exactly do you mean by "GPS coordinates"?

Do you mean, OSI map grid references?

Or do you mean, longtitiude and latitude coordinates? What format? Degrees, minutes, and seconds (DMS) or Degrees and decimal minutes (DMM) or Decimal degrees (DD)?

Also note how long and unwieldy all of the above are.

If we had a loc8 type code and it ended up printed on the side of every pole and duct, it would certainly going a long way to helping.

However I have to say that LocateMe112 looks really good. Hadn't heard of it before.

ukoda

Aimead wrote: »

This is news to me. If this is so then why hasn’t it ever been used when I called for an ambulance?
I actually agree, but I think the point that underlies this (that loc8 can reference arbitrary locations while Eircode can’t) still holds. The whole project was a great opportunity to standardise a locational code for Ireland, a piece of national infrastructure that could facilitate and aid a wide range of areas, but sadly that would have been too sensible.

The technology exists, the will to implement it seems to be lacking. Although the EU are working on a directive to make all states use it the same way.

GJG

Aimead wrote: »

I get that, I really do. The point I’m making is that there is no valid reason why advantages that a system like loc8 gives couldn’t be replicated with Eircode. Think of how little it would take to alter loc8 for the purpose of preserving the advantage of hierarchy while getting the (supposed) benefits of Eircode? All you’d need is to link the subset of ‘real’ addresses generated by the code to your database and you’re done. You could map all loc8 codes for a given area to the same database entry to solve the multiple code issue. The supposed ‘problems’ are all trivially solves. And yes, I do mean ‘trivially’.

Loc8 only gets cited because it has advantages that Eircode does not. There is no reason, at least none that holds up to a moment’s scrutiny, that a code like loc8 couldn’t be married to database.

So, I ask again, why were all the advantages of being hierarchical dropped? The bit that really frustrates me about this thread is in how so many people seem determined to manufacture ‘problems’ without even thinking through how easy these so-called ‘problems’ can be solved.

I understand where you are coming from, and in principle, I largely agree. But we should never sacrifice the good on the altar of perfection.

Perhaps if you understand where I'm coming from...

I started writing and researching this topic almost a decade ago, so I suppose you could say that I'm a bit invested. There was ferocious internal opposition to the existence of postcodes. This manifested itself in the civil servants promoting to ministers the original ABC123 design, which had two time-bombs in it. It purposely gave most non-unique addresses the same postcode as each other, and was based on English-language place names.

This meant it would have little support and strong opposition, and Eamon Ryan, inexperienced in government, took the bait. As intended, the project was shelved at a late stage.

But Rabbite, with far more experience of Dáil and trade union politics restarted the project and pushed it through, and was able to distinguish between real requirements and obstructionism.

So, years after the contracts were signed and a fortnight before launch, when Loc8 gets a bit of traction and says 'scrap the whole project and let's do a few years more of consultation' you can imagine the mandarins and their minions were delighted, precisely because, however long the odds, it would be certain death for the whole project.

I would certainly have made the area sizes much smaller (we're stuck with that) and give a code to every lamppost, mobile mast and bus stop (can be done) but given the choice between Eircode as is, and putting it behind draining the Shannon on our national to-do list, I'm pretty clear.

quietsailor

ukoda wrote: »

We should be pushing for a service like E112 or even right now, there's an app in the Irish App Store that you can use to call emergency services from and it texts them your geo co ordinates.

Could you tell me the name of this app please?

Edit aanother poster posted it already - thanks

formerly scottish paddy

formerly scottish paddy wrote: »

Type an Eircode into their website search and bingo you can see the actual property on a detailed map.............try doing that with a UK postcode!

What like this site you mean http://www.postoffice.co.uk/postcode-finder

ukoda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What like this site you mean http://www.postoffice.co.uk/postcode-finder

I think the point being made was that in the UK you get multiple address hits with a postcode. In Ireland now you get the exact location when you enter the postcode.

moyners

I see Autoaddress have given themselves D08 XY00

Schadenfreudia

I guess posters here can now use their postcode as their nom-de-plume.

Then at least when they post weather reports on the weather threads we'll know where the ph**k they are! :rolleyes:

formerly scottish paddy

Deleted User wrote: »

What like this site you mean http://www.postoffice.co.uk/postcode-finder

Yea seen it before..............just try finding a property in the country! (and the cities aren't brilliant either).

bk

ukoda wrote: »

If you are at a non address location then the emergency services should be able to access your phones location without the user having to do a single thing. This technology already exists.

Unfortunately that isn't accurate.

When you call from a mobile, they receive the ID of the cell tower you are connected too, plus maybe the cell sector, but not your GPS location.

In a rural area a cell tower could potentially cover an area of 400km2 or more!!!

Even in urban areas it is only of minimum use as it could cover an area of a very large number of houses and apartments.

They can try to do cell tower triangulation, but it isn't always accurate and it doesn't always work.

They have proposals to use phones GPS and there are services like the locateme112, but it is far from standardised at the moment.

BTW while the locateme112 service is a great idea, it is in fact a nasty and unnecessary hack.

The EU should simply specify that for all GPS enabled mobile phones sold in Europe, that when you call 112 or 999, that the mobile phone automatically sends your GPS location to the 112/999 service.

There have been many reports of people using whatsapp to send mountain rescue their precise GPS location directly to the mountain rescuers mobile phones, completely bypassing the insufficient 112 emergency services.

112 services have a long way to catch up modern technology and unfortunately people are dying due to this.

tvc15

moyners wrote: »

I see Autoaddress have given themselves D08 XY00

I have to say that is disgraceful, if they are allowed assign themselves a vanity code why not give actually important places easy to remember codes?

ukoda

bk wrote: »

Unfortunately that isn't accurate.

When you call from a mobile, they receive the ID of the cell tower you are connected too, plus maybe the cell sector, but not your GPS location.

In a rural area a cell tower could potentially cover an area of 400km2 or more!!!

Even in urban areas it is only of minimum use as it could cover an area of a very large number of houses and apartments.

They have proposals to use phones GPS and there are services like the locateme112, but it is far from standardised at the moment.

BTW while the locateme112 service is a great idea, it is in fact a nasty and unnecessary hack.

The EU should simply specify that for all GPS enabled mobile phones sold in Europe, that when you call 112 or 999, that the mobile phone automatically sends your GPS location to the 112/999 service.

There have been many reports of people using whatsapp to send mountain rescue their precise GPS location directly to the mountain rescuers mobile phones, completely bypassing the insufficient 112 emergency services.

112 services have a long way to catch up modern technology and unfortunately people are dying due to this.

I said the technology exists and it does. That's entirely accurate. I also went on to say that while the tech exists, the will to implement doesn't seem to be there.

And that is exactly what the EU directive I spoke about is going to do. Make it universal to send GPS with every mobile call to emergency services

irishgeo

news car have to have the technology to allow to it phone in a crash when it happens with gps co ordinates. i think its happening soon.

FishOnABike

TheChizler wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong but it was posted here before, there is a system in use by the ambulance service where the 999/112 operator texts the person calling on their mobile a link which when clicked on, sends the phone's location data to their system.

I've heard of this being used by mountain rescue to locate casualties.

bk

FishOnABike wrote: »

I've heard of this being used by mountain rescue to locate casualties.

It is a really nice hack for something that should really exist at the operating system level of all smartphones world wide.

Reading stories like the following of people who were able to contact emergency services but weren't able to give their exact location and thus died while the technology exists to easily do it makes me extremely mad:

- July 2009, Massif du Mont-Blanc, France
- Dr Bivort, a 77 year-old Belgian doctor, was hiking in the Massif du Mont-Blanc.
- He called the 10-digits special emergency number and reported that he suffered a leg injury.
- He remained online for more than one hour trying to detail his position.
- Due to the lack of collaboration between emergency services and MNOs, the location was not made during the call
-The MNO managed to locate the cell after the call but the battery went
dead.
- First responders searched for Dr Bivort for the following 3 weeks.
- Dr Bivort’s remains were found 2 years later

Madness!! We have the techonolgy to trivial send our location via Whatsapp, facebook, etc. for fun, but emergency services can't find our location in an emergency!!!!

Trouwe Ier

My own "V94" covers a huge area from Coose North, Co. Galway to Ballina and Birdhill in Co. Tipperary to Kilkinlea the last townland on the N21 in Co. Limerick before the Kerry border.

Is anyone else aware of other large areas?