National Postcodes to be introduced

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

You're not getting it. The pricing model for mapping companies is NOT a per transaction model. That's what I've been trying to tell you. That's what the email I have clearly states.

But, how could Eircode charge people for using their finder more than 15 times a day, while google allow it for free?

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

But, how could Eircode charge people for using their finder more than 15 times a day, while google allow it for free?

Because Google will be paying ericode under a different licensing model.

It's kinda the same way it works in the UK, while looking up postcodes on google maps is unlimited and free but public only get 50 look ups on the Royal Mail website.

If you want the database for commercial enterprise use, then you pay for the PAF, or in our case the ECAD/ECAF. Different uses, different pricing models.

SpaceTime

Have any of the mapping providers announced that they're going to implement it yet?

ukoda

SpaceTime wrote: »

Have any of the mapping providers announced that they're going to implement it yet?

None, it's only out 4 days and the product they need to buy isn't finalised yet.

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

Because Google will be paying ericode under a different licensing model.

It's kinda the same way it works in the UK, while looking up postcodes on google maps is unlimited and free but public only get 50 look ups on the Royal Mail website.

If you want the database for commercial enterprise use, then you pay for the PAF, or in our case the ECAD/ECAF. Different uses, different pricing models.

No, in the UK postcode lookup is free for everyone. Royal mail don't charge for lookups of postcode to geo-coordinates. They charge for lookup of the PAF. The PAF has to be paid for.

The only "value add" that the Eircode finder has over an equivalent lookup here is the official "postal" address. Is that enough to justify allowing google to provide lookups for free?

moyners

An Post have been very very quiet and kept the head down, and let Eircode take all the negative publicity for 'wrong addresses' that are actually postal addresses straight from their database. I see the latest thing going around twitter now is people saying that Eircode must have got the addresses from Irish Water because it's the same wrong address (i.e. correct postal from geodirectory) and sher An Post knows their address because they get all their post. All of this could have been explained to people so much better.

I got my letter this morning but I have a unique urban address so as I was expecting there was no issues with it (and I'd got it off my BER cert last week ). There was a fair bit of information to say your address was the postal address and it didn't need to change yadayadayada but the average person doesn't understand the difference between the postal address and the geographical address. It could be argued that there shouldn't be a difference and that An Post has far too much power in this regard but that's another story...

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

No, in the UK postcode lookup is free for everyone. Royal mail don't charge for lookups of postcode to geo-coordinates. They charge for lookup of the PAF. The PAF has to be paid for.

The only "value add" that the Eircode finder has over an equivalent lookup here is the official "postal" address. Is that enough to justify allowing google to provide lookups for free?

No. Postcode lookup via Royal Mail is restricted to 50 per day, if you need more than that you pay.

It's simple, look, they will give mapping companies a non per transaction licence and non mapping companies a per transaction licence. What's so difficult here?

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

No. Postcode lookup via Royal Mail is restricted to 50 per day, if you need more than that you pay.

It's simple, look, they will give mapping companies a non per transaction licence and non mapping companies a per transaction licence. What's so difficult here?

Sigh. We've been over this before. You can download the whole postcode datafile from the link below (the dataset is called CodePoint open)

https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/opendatadownload/products.html

Why would anyone pay to access the same data?

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

Sigh. We've been over this before. You can download the whole postcode datafile from the link below (the dataset is called CodePoint open)

https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/opendatadownload/products.html

Why would anyone pay to access the same data?

Listen. I'm not saying that. Ok. This is as clear as I can be:

Ireland does not have a free version, so Google will have to pay, Google will have huge volumes of transactions so they won't want a per transaction licence, so that's why eircode are developing a non per transaction model for them to buy.

Think of it like this, data usage plan for your mobile.
You can buy 2gb plans, 5gb plans etc, but wait, I'm a really big data user so I don't want a limit, ok, here take this unlimited data bundle so, it's priced differently tho.

That's all I'm saying. Forget about the UK.

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

Listen. I'm not saying that. Ok. This is as clear as I can be:

Ireland does not have a free version, so Google will have to pay, Google will have huge volumes of transactions so they won't want a per transaction licence, so that's why eircode are developing a non per transaction model for them to buy.

Think of it like this, data usage plan for your mobile.
You can buy 2gb plans, 5gb plans etc, but wait, I'm a really big data user so I don't want a limit, ok, here take this unlimited data bundle so, it's priced differently tho.

That's all I'm saying. Forget about the UK.

Okay, I suspect we both have better things to be doing. But, I'll just leave you with this thought ... Remember that whatever license terms are given to google, must be available to other users. You can put whatever restrictions you like in different license terms, but you can't restrict them to specific companies or users. So, all users may well want to look at the license terms that google get, and ask if those terms would suit them better also.......

BailMeOut

ukoda wrote: »

Listen. I'm not saying that. Ok. This is as clear as I can be:

Ireland does not have a free version, so Google will have to pay, Google will have huge volumes of transactions so they won't want a per transaction licence, so that's why eircode are developing a non per transaction model for them to buy.

Think of it like this, data usage plan for your mobile.
You can buy 2gb plans, 5gb plans etc, but wait, I'm a really big data user so I don't want a limit, ok, here take this unlimited data bundle so, it's priced differently tho.

That's all I'm saying. Forget about the UK.

....and the same will apply to apps and devices that have the data. i.e. Garmin will pay Eircode to provide the data on their devices. Then when you buy a Garmin you access freely and as often as you like.

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

Okay, I suspect we both have better things to be doing. But, I'll just leave you with this thought ... Remember that whatever license terms are given to google, must be available to other users. You can put whatever restrictions you like in different license terms, but you can't restrict them to specific companies or users. So, all users may well want to look at the license terms that google get, and ask if those terms would suit them better also.......

I think you are mistaken here, what law stops anyone having a different product for a different market?

Eircode already have a different pricing model for "recognised groups" I.e. A group of car dealers can pay 30k up front for a copy of the ECAD to share, but it's restricted to only companies that have a recognised association.

BailMeOut

Meanwhile, property portal MyHome.ie – which is owned by The Irish Times – said it hoped to implement Eircode into its site in the coming weeks.

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/new-to-market/eircode-will-help-estate-agents-and-buyers-says-ipav-1.2284737

Alun

plodder wrote: »

Sigh. We've been over this before. You can download the whole postcode datafile from the link below (the dataset is called CodePoint open)

https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/opendatadownload/products.html

Why would anyone pay to access the same data?

It's not the complete postcode data file, just a list of postcodes and a pair of coordinates indicating the centre of that postcode area. No street names, and no shape data indicating the boundaries thereof. You could use it for looking up locations based on postcodes, but not for address lookups.

plodder

Alun wrote: »

It's not the complete postcode data file, just a list of postcodes and a pair of coordinates indicating the centre of that postcode area. No street names, and no shape data indicating the boundaries thereof. You could use it for looking up locations based on postcodes, but not for address lookups.

Right, but for navigating by postcode that's all you need. So, when you type a UK postcode into google maps, it goes to that location using free data. I didn't bring the UK into this discussion. It was ukoda who said:

It's kinda the same way it works in the UK, while looking up postcodes on google maps is unlimited and free but public only get 50 look ups on the Royal Mail website.

but they are different products - one of which is free and the other not. Because of the way Eircode was designed, it's a lot harder to make the same distinction with their data.

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

Right, but for navigating by postcode that's all you need. So, when you type a UK postcode into google maps, it goes to that location using free data. I didn't bring the UK into this discussion. It was ukoda who said:

but they are different products - one of which is free and the other not. Because of the way Eircode was designed, it's a lot harder to make the same distinction with their data.

All Google and sat nav companies need are the list of eircodes and geo co odarinates, so it's a different product, so they can price it differently. They should already have the addresses overlaid on their maps, Google certainly do as they use the geodirectory. It would be very very easy for Google to implement eircode, they already have the base database

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

I think you are mistaken here, what law stops anyone having a different product for a different market?

Eircode already have a different pricing model for "recognised groups" I.e. A group of car dealers can pay 30k up front for a copy of the ECAD to share, but it's restricted to only companies that have a recognised association.

Don't see a problem with that. Singling out one company for favourable treatment could be a problem though, especially if existing licensees are doing something similar. Bottom line if two people are competing, then they must be treated the same.

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

Don't see a problem with that. Singling out one company for favourable treatment could be a problem though, especially if existing licensees are doing something similar. Bottom line if two people are competing, then they must be treated the same.

They will differentiate between markets tho, it's likely the mapping product will also be available to app developers who want to build apps like "what's my nearest store" although it's likely they will use Google as the base for this.

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

All Google and sat nav companies need are the list of eircodes and geo co odarinates, so it's a different product, so they can price it differently. They should already have the addresses overlaid on their maps, Google certainly do as they use the geodirectory. It would be very very easy for Google to implement eircode, they already have the base database

Exactly, and anyone else who wants that product would have to be allowed, under the same terms.

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

Exactly, and anyone else who wants that product would have to be allowed, under the same terms.

Not *anyone*. Any *similar* company for similar use. I.e. Other mapping company's

radia

bluesteel wrote: »

Why has TCD lecturer Brian Lucey got such a hard-on for Loc8? His anti Eircodes blog post was really bizarre https://brianmlucey.wordpress.com/2015/04/14/13-things-that-are-wrong-with-eircode/

twitter.com/brianmlucey/

he's completely dismissive of anyone who is supportive of Eircodes

is it so hard for him to realise that Loc8 is a closed, proprietary system?

then again this is the guy who proposed selling off the Anglo deposit book - what kind of finance professor confuses Assets and Liabilities?

I'm not a minute suggesting Loc8 are paying him. He has some odd views generally

Looks more as though he just copied and pasted it (or was given it by the original author, to garner further publicity by promoting the contents on his blog).
The same thing - in full - was posted by 'Rita Cahill' on 27 April 2015 in comments on the Journal.ie article here: http://www.thejournal.ie/eircode-launch-date-2067548-Apr2015/.

And if you google "loc8 NT4‐82‐V23" (since the article helpfully points out, "So for example my business in Rathcoole uses NT4‐82‐V23 to identify its location") you can find out not only that Ethos Technology Ltd is at that location, but also that getlosteircodes.com coincidentally uses the same Loc8 code as an example in one of their posts: White lie busting for dummies.

The good professor ought to be conscious of acknowledging his sources. When I was a student we were taught that plagiarism included passing off the work of others as one's own. Now, in fairness, Prof. Lucey has not explicitly said he composed that post himself, but it is on his blog with no indication whatsoever that he didn't, clearly implying it is no different from the other posts he wrote. And when someone put a comment on his blog saying, "Congratulations Professor, that is an excellent assessment of the two systems," the bould Brian's response was simply "Email your councillor and TD." Disappointing.

bk

Just wanted to point out that Google already licenses GeoDirectory from An Post. So I don't see any reason why they wouldn't also license Eircode.

The rules of what Google can do with the license and the cost of it will be similar to what other big mapping companies will get (e.g. Apple Maps, Bing Maps, Garmin, Nokia Here Maps, etc.).

SpaceTime

Google Maps is key these days. There are loads of web apps that hang off it too.

ukoda

SpaceTime wrote: »

Google Maps is key these days. There are loads of web apps that hang off it too.

You can be sure when Google maps integrates it, there will be an explosion of apps using eircode

bk

I agree, it is a pity that they didn't do a deal with Google before launch, to have it ready for launch. I'm sure many people did the same as me and tried their Eircode in Google Maps on day one and was disappointed it didn't work

BailMeOut

bk wrote: »

I agree, it is a pity that they didn't do a deal with Google before launch, to have it ready for launch. I'm sure many people did the same as me and tried their Eircode in Google Maps on day one and was disappointed it didn't work

A state setup system could not do a deal and single out Google like this. You either have all or none on day one and doing all would not be possible.

OU812

I think there'll be a relatively quick uptake of it. Other interest groups were all clamouring to have their input so it would suit them & the government didn't take any of it. I'd say within three years it'll be in common usage.

threeiron

So An Post seem to be carrying it off successfully: the challenging task of accurately delivering the Eircodes to non-unique addresses. You don't get the appreciation when you succeed!

For the IT guys, what is required to hyperlink an Eircode? Is it possible for companies that add an Eircode to their website Contact Us page, to hyperlink it to a map or do they have to wait for Google maps etc. to adopt Eircodes?

ukoda

threeiron wrote: »

So An Post seem to be carrying it off successfully: the challenging task of accurately delivering the Eircodes to non-unique addresses. You don't get the appreciation when you succeed!

For the IT guys, what is required to hyperlink an Eircode? Is it possible for companies that add an Eircode to their website Contact Us page, to hyperlink it to a map or do they have to wait for Google maps etc. to adopt Eircodes?

Easy to do, you can get your geo co ordinates from ericode (using the directions button on the phone version of Finder.ericode) then it's easy create a hyper link to open any map app and pop those geos in. Eircode have already done it on their site, hitting the directions button on the mobile version on the website launches the phones native maps app and pops the geos in

threeiron

plodder wrote: »

Right, but for navigating by postcode that's all you need. So, when you type a UK postcode into google maps, it goes to that location

What location? Where exactly is there in a rural area? The centroid of the postcode area? Presumably you are trying to find a house so you still need an address? The hierarchical postcode has had its day: from now on it is either a database or a coordinates based code for any new launches by other countries.