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National Postcodes to be introduced

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    #7142
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    Shannon airport being good humoured about it :)

    https://twitter.com/shannonairport/status/621769327931473920



    https://twitter.com/shannonairport/status/621771770433908736[url][/url]


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    #7143
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users Posts: 4,469 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    threeiron wrote:
    For the IT guys, what is required to hyperlink an Eircode? Is it possible for companies that add an Eircode to their website Contact Us page, to hyperlink it to a map or do they have to wait for Google maps etc. to adopt Eircodes?
    ukoda wrote:
    Easy to do, you can get your geo co ordinates from ericode (using the directions button on the phone version of Finder.ericode) then it's easy create a hyper link to open any map app and pop those geos in. Eircode have already done it on their site, hitting the directions button on the mobile version on the website launches the phones native maps app and pops the geos in

    AS ukoda said it's easy to do. It doesn't even need to be looked up through the companies eircode. I'm sure companies already know where they are. Companies, daft, myhome, yourlocal, yelp, etc... have all been doing this well before the introduction of eircodes.
    threeiron wrote: »
    What location? Where exactly is there in a rural area? The centroid of the postcode area? Presumably you are trying to find a house so you still need an address? The hierarchical postcode has had its day: from now on it is either a database or a coordinates based code for any new launches by other countries.

    Hierarchical and coordinate based systems are not mutually exclusive. One could argue that coordinate systems such as the OSI grid or decimal degrees are in fact hierarchical as they are based on a hierarchy of nested progressively smaller contained areas.

    Unfortunately the system we have been given seems to have been designed to maximise lockin and revenue potential rather than openness and utility.


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    #7144
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,227 ✭✭✭plodder


    threeiron wrote: »
    What location? Where exactly is there in a rural area? The centroid of the postcode area?
    Yes, the centroid of the postcode area.
    Presumably you are trying to find a house so you still need an address?
    Yes, and your point is?
    The hierarchical postcode has had its day: from now on it is either a database or a coordinates based code for any new launches by other countries.
    I think you're confusing a few different things. A hierarchical postcode doesn't preclude a database or a coordinates based code. It can be a feature of either. And for the n'th time, I don't have much of a problem with Eircode, and its ability to locate individual addresses. If it was able to locate a small area similar to the UK code, and individual properties, we would have the best of both.

    Every other country seems to have a hierarchical code so I don't think they are going away any time soon. A lot of people seem to have bought into this vague notion that hierarchical codes are no longer in fashion or something ...


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    #7145
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    plodder wrote: »
    A lot of people seem to have bought into this vague notion that hierarchical codes are no longer in fashion or something ...

    Hierarchical codes were born out of necessity due to lack of technology. They were the only way to do it back in the 60's and 70's when we didn't have reliable OCR or route planning software, it has nothing to do with fashion, but the way technology is moving and advancing, the notion of the need for a hierarchical code does seem a little outdated.


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    #7146
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,227 ✭✭✭plodder


    ukoda wrote: »
    Hierarchical codes were born out of necessity due to lack of technology. They were the only way to do it back in the 60's and 70's when we didn't have reliable OCR or route planning software, it has nothing to do with fashion, but the way technology is moving and advancing, the notion of the need for a hierarchical code does seem a little outdated.
    No, that's not true. A hierarchical code allows you to identify an area when all you want is to identify an area, eg when you don't want to identify your exact location, say in a survey or market research. You keep focusing on the use for postcodes that admittedly is the one uppermost in people's minds. But, there are a multitude of other uses for postcodes.... also the one we must have spent an entire day arguing over before, ie. the ability to sort deliveries by area, without needing special software that decodes secret postcode structures.

    I'm getting tired typing this same stuff day in day out. I'm sure others must be tired reading it.


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    #7147
    threeiron
    Closed Accounts Posts: 68 ✭✭threeiron


    plodder wrote: »
    Yes, and your point is?
    My point is a UK postcode is not on its own sufficient to navigate to any point other than the centroid of that postcode.
    plodder wrote: »
    I think you're confusing a few different things. A hierarchical postcode doesn't preclude a database or a coordinates based code.
    A hierarchical postcode essentially means carving a map up into areas based on appropriate road and terrain features pretty much the way the Geography Department in Maynooth created the Small Areas. Using that traditional approach means that there will be ongoing changes in areas where there is new building to avoid them getting too large. Eircode will avoid those changes by using the much larger principal postal towns.

    GoCodes and Loc8 codes are not hierarchical in any meaningful way as the north/south and east/west boundary lines are not consistent with the orientation of roads.


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    #7148
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    plodder wrote: »
    No, that's not true. A hierarchical code allows you to identify an area when all you want is to identify an area, eg when you don't want to identify your exact location, say in a survey or market research. You keep focusing on the use for postcodes that admittedly is the one uppermost in people's minds. But, there are a multitude of other uses for postcodes.

    What I said is true. If you want to add in that nowadays there are other benefits to a hierarchical code, go ahead. But what I said about the origins of hierarchical codes is true.

    Personally, I think the market research one is pretty weak example of the need for a hierarchical code


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    #7149
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,227 ✭✭✭plodder


    threeiron wrote: »
    My point is a UK postcode is not on its own sufficient to navigate to any point other than the centroid of that postcode.
    Agreed, though I wasn't suggesting that it was
    A hierarchical postcode essentially means carving a map up into areas based on appropriate road and terrain features pretty much the way the Geography Department in Maynooth created the Small Areas. Using that traditional approach means that there will be ongoing changes in areas where there is new building to avoid them getting too large. Eircode will avoid those changes by using the much larger principal postal towns.
    I don't agree with that and this was discussed some time back. The vast majority of small areas never change. Small areas in rural areas may be split to create new ones, but normally the new small area was previously empty country-side (as it is getting built on)
    GoCodes and Loc8 codes are not hierarchical in any meaningful way as the north/south and east/west boundary lines are not consistent with the orientation of roads.
    That is true, but the small areas designed by the people you mention above are by and large sensible ones.


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    #7150
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    plodder wrote: »
    I'm getting tired typing this same stuff day in day out. I'm sure others must be tired reading it.

    Stop typing it so. We don't have a hierarchical code. We won't have a hierarchical code. Let it go. I'd be very happy not to debate it with you and stick to discussing the title of this thread "national postcode" = ericode.


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    #7151
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,227 ✭✭✭plodder


    ukoda wrote: »
    What I said is true. If you want to add in that nowadays there are other benefits to a hierarchical code, go ahead. But what I said about the origins of hierarchical codes is true.

    Personally, I think the market research one is pretty weak example of the need for a hierarchical code
    Yes, the origin of postcodes is as you said, but it wasn't correct to say:
    but the way technology is moving and advancing, the notion of the need for a hierarchical code does seem a little outdated
    which is not true as the benefits of hierarchy are unrelated to the original purpose of the code. The report of the Postcode Project board in 2006 recommended a code that identifies small areas. They were looking at it objectively, unlike people here who are simply ignoring all of this, in order to post-justify the immutable design decisions taken by Eircode, which is why we are continually raking over the same ground over and over again.


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    #7152
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    plodder wrote: »
    Yes, the origin of postcodes is as you said, but it wasn't correct to say:

    You're not judge and jury of what is correct or not.

    You can disagree with me if you so choose and I've no issue with that. But this is all opinion based, my opinion is that hierarchical codes seem outdated. You can't correct me on that. Disagree if you wish, but there's pros and cons of every type of code and there's no right or wrong in the definitive sense.

    Ericode will solve a huge amount of problems and once widely adopted will change the way we do things in our daily lives.

    They chose an non hierarchical code, constantly going on about hierarchical codes is, as you say, raking over the same thing constantly, the only time I talk about hierarchical codes on here is when posters similar to yourself talk about them. I'll let it go if you do.


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    #7153
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,227 ✭✭✭plodder


    ukoda wrote: »
    You're not judge and jury of what is correct or not.

    You can disagree with me if you so choose and I've no issue with that. But this is all opinion based, my opinion is that hierarchical codes seem outdated. You can't correct me on that. Disagree if you wish, but there's pros and cons of every type of code and there's no right or wrong in the definitive sense.

    Ericode will solve a huge amount of problems and once widely adopted will change the way we do things in our daily lives.

    They chose an non hierarchical code, constantly going on about hierarchical codes is, as you say, raking over the same thing constantly, the only time I talk about hierarchical codes on here is when posters similar to yourself talk about them. I'll let it go if you do.
    Well everything that's written here is opinion of one form or another. But, I think it's important to point out that the Eircode design went against the recommendation of the government's own postcode board in terms of not identifying small areas, and also in terms of using a "hidden" code. There was no public consultation involved in the process and even if it is never going to change, there is no reason not to keep pointing that out. I assume you're not actually a government spokesperson. There's no need for you to always chime in with your denials.


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    #7154
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    threeiron wrote: »
    What location? Where exactly is there in a rural area? The centroid of the postcode area? Presumably you are trying to find a house so you still need an address? The hierarchical postcode has had its day: from now on it is either a database or a coordinates based code for any new launches by other countries.
    Stick an extra character (or two) onto the end of the UK postcode and the problem is solved, simples!


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    #7155
    marmurr1916
    Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Stick an extra character (or two) onto the end of the UK postcode and the problem is solved, simples!

    The characters would have to represent street numbers or proxies for street numbers for addresses that don't have them.

    It's easy enough to add two numbers to the postcode for a street where houses are numbered 1 to 99.

    But you'd need to develop a code for house numbers from 100 up, unless you're prepared to add 3 characters or more (there are a small number of UK addresses where street numbers have four numbers).

    And you'd also need to develop a code as a proxy for building numbers in rural areas.

    For example, an address of Redhill Farm, The Village, Posttown, Gloucestershire GL11 1AA where Redhill Farm is on a country lane 2 miles from the centre of The Village.

    Then what happens when the farmhouse at Redhill Farm is redeveloped into flats and some of its outbuildings are redeveloped into office units - a real scenario in a former farm near to where I live?

    You have to make up a new postcode for the residential part and new postcode for the office units, while still trying to keep the hierarchical structure.

    And even with the new extended postcodes, you only get addresses for the office buildings, not individual offices, likewise with the farmhouse converted into flats.


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    #7156
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Normally what happens in this case is a new postcode is allocated to the area, as for individual buildings that already happens.
    Different parts of the BBC have different postcodes despite being in the same building complex.

    Subdividing the allocations to fit the region can solve these issues.

    Even eircodes don't do individual offices.


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    #7157
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    plodder wrote: »
    No, that's not true. A hierarchical code allows you to identify an area when all you want is to identify an area, eg when you don't want to identify your exact location, say in a survey or market research. You keep focusing on the use for postcodes that admittedly is the one uppermost in people's minds. But, there are a multitude of other uses for postcodes.... also the one we must have spent an entire day arguing over before, ie. the ability to sort deliveries by area, without needing special software that decodes secret postcode structures.

    I'm getting tired typing this same stuff day in day out. I'm sure others must be tired reading it.

    Your argument is post hoc ergo propter hoc. The "hierarchical" systems weren't designed that way and it just do happened that some companies could do surveys. That said the British post codes are random in size and population density across the country.

    The Irish codes seem to do that in Dublin for sure, I am still D13. The problem with the rest of the country is these codes don't map to counties.


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    #7158
    marmurr1916
    Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Normally what happens in this case is a new postcode is allocated to the area, as for individual buildings that already happens.
    Different parts of the BBC have different postcodes despite being in the same building complex.

    Subdividing the allocations to fit the region can solve these issues.

    That's a bit different to your suggestion to add up to two characters to existing UK postcodes.

    If that was adopted it would mean most UK postcodes would have 9 characters.

    Most UK postcodes are in the format AA11 1AA. Only the larger cities (excluding London) have the format A1 1AA, and even they have six character postcodes too (e.g. A11 1AA).

    If you look at a map of UK postcode areas, most of them have two letters, e.g. BN, CV, DD, EH, FK, GL etc, etc, so they have to have a minumum of six characters for the first 9 postcode districts (BN1 1AA to BN9 9ZZ) and will have seven characters for the remaining postcode districts (BN10 1AA to BN99 9ZZ).

    In some postcode areas, the 1 - 9 postcode districts aren't allocated so all postcodes have at least 7 characters. For example the AB postcode area starts with AB11.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Even eircodes don't do individual offices.

    It does do individual flats though.

    And other addresses which are sub-divided into multiple units can have individual Eircodes for each sub-division.

    Each unit at Wilton Shopping Centre in Cork has its own Eircode.

    The post office in Wilton Shopping Centre is:

    AN POST
    BISHOPSTOWN POST OFFICE
    WILTON SHOPPING CENTRE
    SARSFIELD ROAD
    WILTON
    CORK
    T12 TV02

    And the Bishopstown Credit Union in Wilton Shopping Centre is:

    BISHOPSTOWN CREDIT UNION LIMITED
    UNIT 27
    WILTON SHOPPING CENTRE
    SARSFIELD ROAD
    WILTON
    CORK
    T12 X096

    Boots chemists is:

    BOOTS
    UNIT 37/39
    WILTON SHOPPING CENTRE
    SARSFIELD ROAD
    WILTON
    CORK
    T12 YK23

    I could send a package to T12 YK23 with no other address details and the delivery company would be able to figure out that I meant Boots, Unit 37/39 Wilton Shopping Centre - or whatever shop(s) might lease Units 37-39 in future if Boots ever relocates or closes.

    If I send a package in the UK to A11 1AA with no other address details it could be one of dozens of units within a shopping centre.


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    #7159
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,227 ✭✭✭plodder


    Eugene Norman wrote: »
    Your argument is post hoc ergo propter hoc. The "hierarchical" systems weren't designed that way and it just do happened that some companies could do surveys. That said the British post codes are random in size and population density across the country.
    No, the point I am making is that hierarchy has value beyond its original purpose, which was purely for sorting mail. Read the Capita design document. It acknowledges this and says people like estate agents and insurance companies use this information because it is useful. But bizarrely, they go on to reason that somehow this is a bad thing!. And instead of making it easy for businesses to do this, we should make it hard by giving them a database of points, which they must pay for, and then make sense of themselves according to their own rules. How can that make sense?
    The Irish codes seem to do that in Dublin for sure, I am still D13. The problem with the rest of the country is these codes don't map to counties.
    Correct, and again I will say it that when the routing key maps emerge people will wonder why on earth did this system follow the An Post structure. That would not be such a great problem, had they used small areas below this structure because then people could easily create their own structure by combining small areas in different ways.


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    #7160
    marmurr1916
    Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    Eugene Norman wrote: »
    Your argument is post hoc ergo propter hoc. The "hierarchical" systems weren't designed that way and it just do happened that some companies could do surveys. That said the British post codes are random in size and population density across the country.

    The Irish codes seem to do that in Dublin for sure, I am still D13. The problem with the rest of the country is these codes don't map to counties.

    And it took decades for databases based on UK postcodes to be constructed.

    They didn't just appear overnight.


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    #7161
    chewed
    Registered Users Posts: 3,410 ✭✭✭chewed


    I see the Eircode Finder site seems to be Kaput!

    https://finder.eircode.ie/#/

    It won't recognise any eircode!


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    #7162
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    chewed wrote: »
    I see the Eircode Finder site seems to be Kaput!

    https://finder.eircode.ie/#/

    It won't recognise any eircode!

    works for me? just tried it


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    #7163
    chewed
    Registered Users Posts: 3,410 ✭✭✭chewed


    I get "No search results have been found." no matter what address or eircode I type in!


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    #7164
    moyners
    Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭moyners


    chewed wrote: »
    I get "No search results have been found." no matter what address or eircode I type in!

    Working for me also


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    #7165
    BailMeOut
    Registered Users Posts: 2,985 ✭✭✭BailMeOut


    chewed wrote: »
    I get "No search results have been found." no matter what address or eircode I type in!

    works for me - try another browser.

    Interesting how it deals with the spaces. You can not add a space or not or add as many spaces you want and it still works. Nice coding.


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    #7166
    G_R
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 5,028 Mod ✭✭✭✭G_R


    Working fine for me too!


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    #7167
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    chewed wrote: »
    I get "No search results have been found." no matter what address or eircode I type in!

    Have you tried turning it off and back on again?

    #ITsupport


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    #7168
    BailMeOut
    Registered Users Posts: 2,985 ✭✭✭BailMeOut


    anyone figure out a syntax to add to https://finder.eircode.ie/#/ with the eircode for it to pop right up?

    I have tried all sorts of options and have not found one.


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    #7169
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,227 ✭✭✭plodder


    I must say the mapping is of very high quality. I ahve to give them credit for that.

    I just noticed that Kilcullen co. Kildare's post town is the Curragh Camp. eg

    KILDARE COUNTY COUNCIL,
    KILCULLEN COMMUNITY LIBRARY,
    NEW ABBEY ROAD,
    KILCULLEN,
    CURRAGH CAMP,
    CO. KILDARE

    That's one for the conspiracy theorists :)


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    #7170
    Alun
    Registered Users Posts: 21,464 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    plodder wrote: »
    I must say the mapping is of very high quality. I ahve to give them credit for that.
    It's nothing to do with eircode, it's OSi street map level mapping, publicly available here http://maps.osi.ie if you zoom in far enough.


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    #7171
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,227 ✭✭✭plodder


    Alun wrote: »
    It's nothing to do with eircode, it's OSi street map level mapping, publicly available here http://maps.osi.ie if you zoom in far enough.
    I assume they have to pay OSI to use it though and the web app that runs over it is pretty decent.


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