National Postcodes to be introduced

GJG

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

No need to be sorry. I'm purely posting it as a dig at your writing on the topic of Eircode vs Loc8 code, since I don't know you.

Hang on a second.

Loc8 made a series of strident and emphatic claims. I accept that some of their claims - such as that their code is more useful or better designed - are a matter of opinion. But some of these were claims of simple fact, such as that the Rock of Cashel would not get an Eircode, that UCD would get only one Eircode or that the Eircode database would be over 2GB.

Loc8 were extravagantly dismissive of anyone who questioned these claims, yet each one has been proven entirely wrong in fact. Loc8 have not had the grace to correct the record, let alone apologised to the people that they accused of stupidity, bias, and bad faith because they questioned Loc8's claims.

Loc8 intimated that they had special access to information that other's didn't; when it now turns out that, it seems, Loc8 were just making it all up, I think it is fair enough for people to point out the facts.

MBSnr

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

What maps does Eircode use? Their satellite view of my house is much clearer that google maps. I can even see the car in the drive. I can even tell it's her MX5.
I checked the ordnance survey map and it's nowhere near as clear as either of them.

I noticed it's the exact same as Bing Maps.

Alun

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

What maps does Eircode use? Their satellite view of my house is much clearer that google maps. I can even see the car in the drive. I can even tell it's her MX5.
I checked the ordnance survey map and it's nowhere near as clear as either of them.

It uses the Ordnance Survey street maps, go to maps.osi.ie and zoom right in.

Alun

MBSnr wrote: »

I noticed it's the exact same as Bing Maps.

They're OSi maps, nothing remotely like Bing maps as far as I can see.

clewbays

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

What maps does Eircode use? Their satellite view of my house is much clearer that google maps. I can even see the car in the drive. I can even tell it's a 2015 Ferrari.

Car thieves use Eircode maps to target high value automobiles Minister denies all responsibility!

MBSnr

Alun wrote: »

They're OSi maps, nothing remotely like Bing maps as far as I can see.

The satellite view is exactly the same for my property. We were talking sat view not just the map view.

Alun

MBSnr wrote: »

The satellite view is exactly the same for my property. We were talking sat view not just the map view.

Ah, OK, I thought we were talking about the maps, should've gone to Specsavers .

In my case, the satellite view on the eircode website also coincides with that on Bing, although the current Google imagery for my house is both much clearer and much newer than the Bing one, again I can tell from the car on my driveway, (and a few other things).

MBSnr

Alun wrote: »

Ah, OK, I thought we were talking about the maps, should've gone to Specsavers .

In my case, the satellite view on the eircode website also coincides with that on Bing, although the current Google imagery for my house is both much clearer and much newer than the Bing one, again I can tell from the car on my driveway, (and a few other things).

Is the other way for me. Bing is clearer than Google and about the same age give or take a year or two.

Hou1ie

Slightly off topic light relief.....
I think Eircode should come up with a code for Santa letters for Christmas (Canadians have H0H 0H0, dont know about other countries).
Given that it needs to obey the A65 B4CDE format, whats the best we can come up with.....

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

FYI the set up costs of ericode were a tiny fraction of the 27million, the bulk was getting the geodirectory and encoding databases (entirely necessary actions) the actual code development costs are broadly the same as the cost to set up loc8code from what I can gather.

Can you explain how you know this? You say you don't work for Eircode. Why should people believe this?

And they should pay. The postcode has the ability to generate revenue and self finance itself, companies can gain efficiencies when they buy ericode so it's a win win. Otherwise me and you as tax payers will be footing the bill for maintenance of the code.

And another FYI: loc8 charge a licence fee to commercial companies to use the code, same as eircode will.

Forget about loc8 for a minute. We could have designed a code independent of loc8 that cost nothing. All these codes are no more than a formula that converts lat/long coordinates to a code. Why would that cost 27 million?

Eircode is effectively "taking over" the Geodirectory in the sense of customers/licensees of geodirectory will now become Eircode licensees instead. The Eircode products include the valuable address databases, but a geocode would not have. So, it's no wonder that An Post are charging an arm and a leg.

Had we designed a geocode, then An Post could have continued to sell either geodirectory or address database products like ECAD and ECAF. But, not everyone would have needed to license them.

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

Can you explain how you know this? You say you don't work for Eircode. Why should people believe this?

Forget about loc8 for a minute. We could have designed a code independent of loc8 that cost nothing. All these codes are no more than a formula that converts lat/long coordinates to a code. Why would that cost 27 million?

Eircode is effectively "taking over" the Geodirectory in the sense of customers/licensees of geodirectory will now become Eircode licensees instead. The Eircode products include the valuable address databases, but a geocode would not have. So, it's no wonder that An Post are charging an arm and a leg.

Had we designed a geocode, then An Post could have continued to sell either geodirectory or address database products like ECAD and ECAF. But, not everyone would have needed to license them.

All knowledge I have is public, it's been said in interviews, we were told 9% of €27 million for design, another €9 million of the €27 million was paid to An Post for use of the geodirectory, the rest is the cost of dissemination and encoding government databases. Just because I do my research on the topic doesn't mean I've insider knowledge. You could easily find this information out for yourself if you were so inclined.

There's a lot of bull posted on this thread so I tend to do a bit of digging before I refute claims. But also bear in mind, as this is a public anonymous forum, my figures could be wrong, I've been wrong about ericode related stuff before. But in this case, I'm pretty confident of my numbers.


Here is the public record of the 9% figure im using

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-01-29a.42[url][/url]

Seth Brundle

Hou1ie wrote: »

Slightly off topic light relief.....
I think Eircode should come up with a code for Santa letters for Christmas (Canadians have H0H 0H0, dont know about other countries).
Given that it needs to obey the A65 B4CDE format, whats the best we can come up with.....

Apparently it will be N07 R34L

efb

Hou1ie wrote: »

Slightly off topic light relief.....
I think Eircode should come up with a code for Santa letters for Christmas (Canadians have H0H 0H0, dont know about other countries).
Given that it needs to obey the A65 B4CDE format, whats the best we can come up with.....

We don't make eircodes for Non Irish Republic destinations

OU812

Hou1ie wrote: »

Slightly off topic light relief.....
I think Eircode should come up with a code for Santa letters for Christmas (Canadians have H0H 0H0, dont know about other countries).
Given that it needs to obey the A65 B4CDE format, whats the best we can come up with.....

Doesn't matter. Everyone knows you can just put "Santa" on the envelope & it gets to him.

Stinicker

I wonder has the Eircode system been designed with a United Ireland in mind? This is a political certainty over the next 25 to 30 years so and might even arrive sooner as Scotland will most likely exit the United Kingdom at some stage during the lifetime of the current UK Parliament.

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

All knowledge I have is public, it's been said in interviews, we were told 9% of €27 million for design, another €9 million of the €27 million was paid to An Post for use of the geodirectory, the rest is the cost of dissemination and encoding government databases. Just because I do my research on the topic doesn't mean I've insider knowledge. You could easily find this information out for yourself if you were so inclined.

There's a lot of bull posted on this thread so I tend to do a bit of digging before I refute claims. But also bear in mind, as this is a public anonymous forum, my figures could be wrong, I've been wrong about ericode related stuff before. But in this case, I'm pretty confident of my numbers.


Here is the public record of the 9% figure im using

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-01-29a.42[url][/url]

9 million to An Post is only one third of the total and as I said, Eircode are basically eating Geodirectory's lunch by providing products that at least compete with or maybe make it redundant. A geocode wouldn't do that. So, there is no comparison of the costs which would be much less with a geocode because there is no database as part of the system itself.

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

9 million to An Post is only one third of the total and as I said, Eircode are basically eating Geodirectory's lunch by providing products that at least compete with or maybe make it redundant. A geocode wouldn't do that. So, there is no comparison of the costs which would be much less with a geocode because there is no database as part of the system itself.

So you propose a postcode that doesn't validate postal addresses? You've just wiped out about half of its usefulness. (no address validation, no improvement in data collection efficieny, no help with fraud prevention, etc etc)

Reality check here. Design cost of eircode is more or less equal to design cost of loc8code. No matter what code was picked, 91% of the €27 million would still have to spent on validating it against our postal address database (it is a POSTcode after all) encoding government databases and dissemination. Otherwise we'd have a postcode that just wouldn't do anything but find you a square of land on a map, grand for navigating but utterly useless for anything else.

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

So you propose a postcode that doesn't validate postal addresses? You've just wiped out about half of its usefulness. (no address validation, no improvement in data collection efficieny, no help with fraud prevention, etc etc)

No that's not what I'm saying. If you need to validate postal addresses then you should buy a product that helps you to do that. If you want to implement postcodes on a satnav then you could be able to do that for free, or if you want to collect postcodes and relate them to areas, you should be able to do that for free.

Reality check here. Design cost of eircode is more or less equal to design cost of loc8code. No matter what code was picked, 91% of the €27 million would still have to spent on validating it against our postal address database (it is a POSTcode after all) encoding government databases and dissemination. Otherwise we'd have a postcode that just wouldn't do anything but find you a square of land on a map, grand for navigating but utterly useless for anything else.

in your opinion..

Richard

Stinicker wrote: »

I wonder has the Eircode system been designed with a United Ireland in mind? This is a political certainty over the next 25 to 30 years so and might even arrive sooner as Scotland will most likely exit the United Kingdom at some stage during the lifetime of the current UK Parliament.

I'm sure it could be extended to NI if required but a united Ireland is highly unlikely for a lot longer than 30 years.

Apologies if this has been addressed, but will Google Maps (and others such as Apple Mals) support them?

Victor

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

Which is more odious:

1. A young person making fun of an older person
2. A strong person jeering at an invalid
3. The supposedly wise mocking a seeming fool?

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

No need to be sorry. I'm purely posting it as a dig at your writing on the topic of Eircode vs Loc8 code, since I don't know you.

Trolling not welcome. Constructive posts only please

Moderator

Richard

Not sure if this has been posted already:

Yer man with glasses letter reaches Buncrana man Barry Henderson


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-33581277

TheBustedFlush

I note that I have received both a yellow and red card for two previous postings.

Apologies to any and all that were offended/stressed by them.

TheBustedFlush

plodder wrote: »

9 million to An Post is only one third of the total and as I said, Eircode are basically eating Geodirectory's lunch by providing products that at least compete with or maybe make it redundant. A geocode wouldn't do that. So, there is no comparison of the costs which would be much less with a geocode because there is no database as part of the system itself.

The figures and assumptions being quoted in relation to costs probably need a bit of examination and clarification. Most of that clarification has been provided through various public statements from the Minister or his officials at various points - this one from last year being particularly useful in terms of its detail.

Media reports have generally said that the project has cost €27m to date - clearly it hasn't.

The set-up costs for Eircode are 9% of the €27m, claim others. They aren't - according to the Department. The projected set-up cost - to the State - is €15.6m in the first two years, and then on-going costs of approx €1.2m per year after that, according to Minister and officials initially. The set-up cost is now quoted at €16m in recent comments in Oireachtas.

ukoda

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

The figures and assumptions being quoted in relation to costs probably need a bit of examination and clarification. Most of that clarification has been provided through various public statements from the Minister or his officials at various points - this one from last year being particularly useful in terms of its detail.

Media reports have generally said that the project has cost €27m to date - clearly it hasn't.

The set-up costs for Eircode are 9% of the €27m, claim others. They aren't - according to the Department. The projected set-up cost - to the State - is €15.6m in the first two years, and then on-going costs of approx €1.2m per year after that, according to Minister and officials initially. The set-up cost is now quoted at €16m in recent comments in Oireachtas.

There's a difference between "set up" and "design" costs tho, they claim 9% purely as design cost, however I would expect the set up costs to include more than just the design of the code. It would include the IT build (like the Finder tool) and other normal costs associated with setting up something like this.

By the way, I took no offence to your other posts, nor did I report them, but it's decent of you to apologise so fair play.

Sam Russell

It should also be noted that the capital transfer from the Eircode budget to An Post for the use of the geodirectory is included. This is not strictly a cost of setting up Eircode as neither would the capital cost of the building they are housed in be considered a cost.

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

It should also be noted that the capital transfer from the Eircode budget to An Post for the use of the geodirectory is included. This is not strictly a cost of setting up Eircode as neither would the capital cost of the building they are housed in be considered a cost.

Agreed, it's a bit of a misnomer saying ericode cost €27 million to introduce, it's not like we forked over 27 million, it's a estimated cost over a 10 year period, plus the revenue it generates will offset some of that cost, what that revenue amounts to will have to remain to be seen tho

TheBustedFlush

To date, according to a recent response made by the Minister, approx €13.5m has been paid out to the licence-holder. This includes monies that then have to be paid to other state-owned organisations by the licence-holder i.e. OSI and An Post.

The cost - to the state (taxpayer) - of the code design and the design creation of a new address database with codes was stated by the Minister to be approx €1.9m. That's how much the State was willing to pay the licence-holder for these two elements. How much they actually cost to create is an issue for the licence-holder. One could assume fairly that the licence-holder made a profit on this transaction.

The state is contributing a percentage of the costs to use the GeoDirectory over the period of ten years. The remaining cost has to be paid by the licence-holder. It's estimated that this is approx a 50/50 split.

The portion of the cost being paid by the State is stated as being €8.27m over the ten years. This is a fixed cost, agreed in advance prior to tender, with the owners of GeoDirectory - OSI and An Post. The maximum amount that will be paid - by the state - in any one year is €950k. Since the GeoDirectory was probably only licensed for use about a year ago, then it stands to reason that the costs paid to date are approx €950k - which are split between the two shareholders - OSI and An Post.

Capita - as the licence-holder - would also have had to pay €950k to the two state-organisations from their own monies.

Thus, the State contributed €950k (50%) to be paid by Capita to two other state organisations - in which it is the shareholder. In a sense, monies from the public purse stayed in the public purse.

The licence-holder - a private company - also paid the two state agencies €950k for the first year's use of GeoDirectory.

One up for the State on that cost.

moyners

Interesting blog appeared today and is doing the rounds. Can't comment on the validity of some of the claims but they won't help public acceptance.

https://medium.com/@beyourownreason/how-greed-cronyism-and-vested-interests-are-serving-anyone-but-the-irish-public-4e80bfdfc85

dr.fuzzenstein

moyners wrote: »

Interesting blog appeared today and is doing the rounds. Can't comment on the validity of some of the claims but they won't help public acceptance.

https://medium.com/@beyourownreason/how-greed-cronyism-and-vested-interests-are-serving-anyone-but-the-irish-public-4e80bfdfc85

If ever there was a need, it is related to the raft of taxes recently introduced for which databases were increasingly cross referenced, such as the Local Property Tax and Irish Water, as well as seeking a better compliance to the TV Licence, and facilitating Marketers access to better data.

Ah, the recurring theme "But I have three separate Dole cards, I have no intention paying for water, TV license, no way, my spouse also claims, it's no-one's business where I live, I like to be off the radar for, ahem, 'reasons' "

Sam Russell

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Ah, the recurring theme "But I have three separate Dole cards, I have no intention paying for water, TV license, no way, my spouse also claims, it's no-one's business where I live, I like to be off the radar for, ahem, 'reasons' "

I have a code number from revenue for LPT - that has an identity number unique to my address.

I have a meter from the gas company - that has an identity number unique to my address.

I have a meter from the electricity company - that has an identity number unique to my address.

I have a meter from the water company - that has an identity number unique to my address.

I have a TV licence that has an identity number unique to my address.

I am entered on the electoral roll and have a I an identity number unique to my address.

I now have a postcode that has an identity number unique to my address.

Do we need all these numbers and codes?