National Postcodes to be introduced

garydubh

recedite wrote: »

I discovered by accident that, when punching loc8 codes into the Garmin satnav, I can use a "space" instead of a "dash" in the code. The advantage to this is I don't have to keep changing from the querty screen to the symbols screen where the dash is found, therefore quicker and easier.

If I am going to some obscure place, I look it up on the OSI map provided on the loc8 website the evening before, in comfort at my PC, then write down the code generated there. Next morning I get in the car, punch in the code, and set off early for a hassle free journey. I can also text or phone the code if I want to meet someone there.
I have to say, I find it's a great free (to me anyway) service. Well done.

Thanks for that - yes if you look at the recently used codes (in folder beside where you enter Loc8 Code) the dash has been inserted for you. On a Garmin there is no need for a space either - dashes are inserted behind the scenes as the rules of the code are checked - it validates that it is a real Loc8 Code (rules applied) and then the dashes are auto entered behind the scenes - so makes it a quicker entry. Similar happens when entering in point8 App on iphone - dashes are auto inserted.

We receive correspondence every day from users for whom Loc8 Codes have made their daily routine easier and lots more new stuff coming in a few months.

thirty-six dragons

To clarify. GaryDubh notes in a post recently that the algorithm is not closed and it is open to scrutiny. Perhaps true; well, at least, the documented algorithm is there. The actual programming code to create codes is not.

But, most importantly, as the subject of a patent application - please, everyone, be warned; that any attempt to create loc8codes in your service, program, database, website may be subject to legal action.

That is unless GaryDubh knows if Loc8code is prepared to release the code under a permissive open license anytime soon?

recedite

garydubh wrote: »

On a Garmin there is no need for a space either - dashes are inserted behind the scenes as the rules of the code are checked - it validates that it is a real Loc8 Code (rules applied) and then the dashes are auto entered behind the scenes - so makes it a quicker entry. Similar happens when entering in point8 App on iphone - dashes are auto inserted.

Interesting, I will try that in future.
I don't think that info appears on the website? Maybe you should place it on the garmin "unlock" page. Everyone loves a shortcut

garydubh

iantheteacher wrote: »

GaryDubh is being deliberately incorrect and confusing about the maths and about mapping.

I am not being confusing about the maths at all - in fact I did not mention maths. Let's please stick to facts.

iantheteacher wrote: »

The OpenPostcode, freely and easily, using an open free-use algorithm, converts any location data, however accurate, into an easy to read, write and use, hierarchical postcode - accurate as a representation of the location coordinates to within a 3 metre radius. No other code does this.

So what does this statement mean;- if the Lat/long used to create the code has no verifiable accuarcy, how could you possibly claim an unequivocal +/3m accuracy and better than anyone else? Converting coordinates to a code is only half the battle - Loc8 Code does that too but it also ensures that the accurcay is controlled in what is converted and also that possible sources of confusion are removed from the code. Time to consider what is actually being said !

iantheteacher wrote: »

But being Ireland, we will probably adopt the worst performing code and the one that create layers of unnecessary bureaucracy and profiteering.

This is no more than emotive incitement that could be interpreted as seeking to alledge that Loc8 Code is trying to rip someone off. This would not only be untrue but also this kind of statement could get people into trouble!

FACTS: Go to your site enter Lat/long of unkown quality - get code of unknown quality for free. Go to www.loc8code.com site - find desired location on +/-1m accuracy map - create code of worst accuracy in disconnected scenario of +/6m and also for free. What's the difference? - both are for free but one invests resources in making sure the code generated has a traceable accuracy - that is Loc8 Code - the other does not.

iantheteacher wrote: »

What is "fruity" is to claim that anyone can make a code to +/- 1 metre accuracy. This accuracy does not exist in the code. +/- 6 metres is the stated accuracy on the site, though it is not sure how much this fails as you move down in latitude. Of course, it is a closed code.

BOD has lot to be thanked for;- including his statement about wisdom...

1. Create a code in Loc8 Code website then re-enter it on the website . If there was an error of +/-6m there then the exact same point as created would not be displayed - but it is. The repeatable accuracy via the web is in fact +/-0m error but in my earlier post I quoted +/-1m error as that is the noted accuracy of the 1:1000 scale mapping it is created from. The error disconnected from the web is on average +/-5.2m as I stated in my post. The +/-6m accuracy quoted on the site is the worst accuracy (disconnected) - nothing "fruity" about any of this - just facts that can be stood over. If Loc8 Code did not selectively remove and handle confusing characters and force an alphanumreic code (necessarily making it non random, predicatable and contributing to validation requirements) then the worst accuracy would be better than +/-3m. As I said in my earlier post, Loc8 Code sacrifices on some resolution in favour of other key characteristics which are clearly defined in the patent specification. Please take time a read and consider and remove related incorrect and misleading statements from the opencode website.

2. Loc8 Code does not fail "as it moves down the latitude". Loc8 Codes are not created directly from Latltitude/Longitude - they are created from the ITM Grid coordinates on which the OSI/OSNI mapping is based and the official coordinate system of the island and the best fit for its location on the Earth's surface. On the other hand, as you use Latitude and Longitude, the errors in your code do indeed vary as you move North and South as you say and because you do not use a comprehensive coordinate transforamtion (normally at least 7 parameters) but just a notionally concieved scale factor, therefore your coding system does indeed vary depending on latitude. But this is not the case for Loc8 Codes. As stated in my earlier post your code also suffers from errors related to datum. Loc8 Codes are fixed to ITM ETRF89 datum with no related errors but opencode has no known datum so Lat/longs in different datums can be converted to codes of differing and unkown accuracies and errors related to Latitude that you quote on your site are only those relating to WGS84 datum but not those associated with any other datum that Latitude and Longitude may be associated with.

iantheteacher wrote: »

To claim that "open" is a failing is truly amazing and I doubt anyone sees this as any more than a desperate attempt to hold water in your hands.

Open as you have interpreted it means that coordinates from any source can be converted and this I am afraid means that there is no associated quality or accurcay. Why? - because you are not prepared to pay the costs of putting the necessary support, testing, quality and controls behind your solution as Loc8 Code has ! Once again I state that anyone can create a Loc8 Code in the site at no cost.

iantheteacher wrote: »

The GaryDubh boy is right. GPS coordinates can be incorrect. So what? That's not the purpose of the code. The OpenPostcode algorithm converts coordinates to a hierarchical, easy to read and understand and compare and remember and write, code.

Lets be precise for a moment - this is especially important when you are imparting knowledge to others! Firstly there is no such thing as "GPS coordinates". GPS is one means by which position can be determined. After position is determined it can be expressed in several types of coordinates;- generally known as cartesion or geographic and numerous variations on these - but none are "GPS coordinates". Coordinates have existed for centuries before GPS ever came on the scene and can equally be determined by reference to a map or chart, in GIS, by radar, by Loran, using a Sextant or geodetic calculation, amongst many others.

Accepting this then, if you acknowledge that the coordinates that your solution uses can be incorrect why do you still claim that you deliver a code of +/-3m accuracy and better than anyone else's? - clearly no more than marketing speel and not actually justifiable at all!

iantheteacher wrote: »

The proof-of-concept website uses Google Maps to prove concept. But of course you can also get your coordinates from the OSI maps as Loc8code's website does.

But your site does not support the ITM coordinates that come from the OSI mapping at all and you do not licensre OSI mapping. Your site mentions Irish Grid etc but does not do any calculations relating to Irish Grid or the new official ITM grid system. Furthermore, you will note that because Loc8 Code pays a license fee to integrate OSI mapping into its service it also has access to the high precision 1:1000 scale mapping which is not available on the public site. Your site does not support anything directly from OSI mapping.

iantheteacher wrote: »

You can use your SatNav with +/- 3 metre accuracy (at least with my Garmin anyway when it has nearly all its satellites). Or, for the future, the government can use the Geodirectory coordinates as used by AnPost.

Another case of Knowledge V Wisdom. Did you read +/-3m accuarcy on the box or the screen? You missed the bit that says that +/-3m accuracy is only possible with EGNOS in Europe (WAAS in USA) and that this is a line of sight service that requires that the GPS has a clear view to the south which is not always the case in consumer use. You have also ignored the fact that a minimum number of satellites with an optimum configuration with optimum environemntal conditions and with some user knowledge is required to achieve even near this.

I have worked with GPS for 20 years or so and believe you me, I have seen position errors in the order of 100's of metres to kilometers in the hands of consumers - not to mention the problems of mis-matching coordinate datums. What you read on the screen or on the box are not absolutes -there are lots of variables including multipath and ionospeheric errors and not least the user! Hell look at Google Earth for all the photographs stuck to positions on there that have been taken from GPS and are no where near where they should be. You should really come on a GPS course to understand the limitations of your perceptions a little better. Let me know and I can organise.

Regarding Geodirectory - the coordinates in there are in IG and ITM and your solution cannot handle them. Furthermore if the governement wanted to use your solution you would first have to:

1. deal with confusing characters - this would reduce the potential resolution of your solution considerably.
2. ensure that it can be validated - i.e. impose rules that ensure what format it takes rather than being random - if it can be all letters or all numbers how can an individual or a software solution be sure that what it is looking at is definitely your code - a key part of any software solution as you will know and in all reference material about postcodes the validation capability is of particular significance.
3. Invest in quality control and restrict the source to one with verifiable accurcay - i.e. close the solution
4. Remove elements that are the IP of others.

amongst many other things...........

iantheteacher wrote: »

No one bar GaryDubh understands why a postcode needs to be verified. I created by Loc8code with as little accuracy as the OSI map could supply. I arbitrarily chose a location in my yard; it could have been way down the laneway at my gate; but I chose the location. And then I verified it. Woop-di-do.

If accuracy does not concern you or you do not really understand it then please do not make accuracy statements that you cannot stand over.

iantheteacher wrote: »

By all means in a democracy let people feck up their postcodes if they wish. They just won't get their mail and their houses will burn longer waiting for the firemen. People feck up their addresses all the time and there is no law against. And there is no law which says which 3 metre radius circle is the exact location of my address: I decide.

All nice unscientific rhetoric but it does not change the fact that the Lat/long you are using to get the code most likely will not deliver the 3m accuracy you claim - you can't keep ignoring this. There are two parts to doing the job but one part of it you are not doing at all and in the other part you are not dealing with confusing characters or a validateable format at all. Furthermore, you are adding other bits as they are pointed out to you! We will watch to see if anything highlighted in this exchange or in the published Loc8 Code format is freshly added to your code.

iantheteacher wrote: »

Postcodes/Geolocation codes are NOT navigation - they are points! Not vectors.

Sounds nice but what does it mean?

I am sorry but I will continue to challenge claims that cannot be substantiated and highlight the addition of unique elements already in use elsewhere.

garydubh

iantheteacher wrote: »

To clarify. GaryDubh notes in a post recently that the algorithm is not closed and it is open to scrutiny. Perhaps true; well, at least, the documented algorithm is there. The actual programming code to create codes is not.

The programming code is not required as we provide API's and .dll's to licensed users. Again developers are a small precentage of all potential users - anyone that wants to create a code for any location just go to the website and do it - no programming code or cost is involved at all.

iantheteacher wrote: »

But, most importantly, as the subject of a patent application - please, everyone, be warned; that any attempt to create loc8codes in your service, program, database, website may be subject to legal action.

That is unless GaryDubh knows if Loc8code is prepared to release the code under a permissive open license anytime soon?

The patent covers a lot of things including the way Loc8 delivers the code - i.e the whole service and solution. Without a patent - the code automatically enjoys copyright anyhow. It is worrying that you are in the job you are and do not understand the importance of these things and that copyright and patent are not some form of criminal activity as you seem to be suggesting!

Furthermore you do not appear to read detail - Loc8 does does not want anyone producing Loc8 Codes without cooperation with Loc8 Code itself - why? - well as I said earlier it is in order to ensure that everyone correctly adheres to an agreed standard and uses accepted quality sources so that the users of Loc8 Codes can rely upon the codes and their accurcay. I explained this in great detail in my earleir post.

If you are a developer and you want to use Loc8 Codes - just contact Loc8 and the best way forward will be agreed. Loc8 does not want Loc8 Codes of random quality in the public domain and in this way if you develop a solution using Loc8 Codes others will want to use and depend on it adding significant value!

garydubh

recedite wrote: »

Interesting, I will try that in future.
I don't think that info appears on the website? Maybe you should place it on the garmin "unlock" page. Everyone loves a shortcut

Take your point will organise...

garydubh

iantheteacher wrote: »

I, nor any other ordinary user, is permitted to convert a Loc8code to coordinates or to create a Loc8code in a database, spreadsheet or other program (except using the Loc8code website or other licensed products). There's no way I want my address organised like that.

You need to seperate out your requirements as a developer and ordinary consumer use. Some of your requirements as a developer and related teacher may be commercial. As explained Loc8 has API's and DLL's for your needs. All you need to do is talk to Loc8 and these can be arranged.

You are not therefore an ordinary user and ordinary users do not normally need Lat/long from Loc8 Codes but if they do this can be achieved by sending to SatNAV (supported where a Loc8 Code is entered on the site) or Loc8 can do this for anyone, Problem is that Loc8 Codes are designed to remove the ambiguity and vagaries of Lat/longs as explained so Loc8 is not eager to re-introduce these again for obvious reasons.

iantheteacher wrote: »

I, nor any other ordinary user, is permitted to sort Loc8codes logically, to create navigation routes, to use Loc8codes for statistical or marketing purposes - to us it will always be nothing more than a random assortment of letters and numbers.

Loc8 Codes are entered into SatNavs or the iphone App and these will create navigation routes. As you say - Loc8 Codes are Points - if you want navigation routes you need a suitable navigation device. Loc8 Codes identify memorable, sortable and recognisable Areas, Zones, Localities and destinations - examples here:

iantheteacher wrote: »

Navigation is for something else to work out and as we well know navigation changes (even from hour to hour and depending on how you are getting there and whether you want to use toll roads or not, whether you are walking across mountains or not, whether you are cycling and avoiding hills, whether a new road has been created, whether an old road has been removed or blocked or whether a one-way traffic system is changed, as they so often do). It cannot be fixed into points.

Indeed, I do understand as a professional navigator and surveyor for 31 years. All very true but that is what navigation devices do - Loc8 just make sure that the destination selected is precise (as Recedite said in an earlier post) without all the possible ambiguities - then Garmin Satnavs & TomTom, Navigon, Google Apps in which Loc8 is useable (Garmin SatNavs and the point8 App) do the Navigation in conjunction with the integrated GPS receivers - no issues there at all.

thirty-six dragons

There's too much wrong with everything you've written. It doesn't pay to answer it all. You actually appear to be quite clueless and rude and don't be long before you make everything personal. Christ, by now you're claiming a 0 metre accuracy for a Loc8code. What do I care! Delude away boyo - the maths is straightforward enough. And no such claim is made on the Loc8code website. (We're never quite sure, are we, whether you are actually the Loc8code boyo or not? Odd.)

I know all about patents and copyright. In fact the OpenPostcode is copyrighted. I own it. It is then released on the lesser GPL license. It is not patented. Software patents don't happily exist in Ireland I believe (I could be wrong but it wouldn't matter); but it is published with reference to all open prior art and thus may not be subsequently patented by anyone else.

The claims of "verifiable" of the Loc8code are pure nonsense. Anyone can make a code. There is nothing verifiable about it. The fact that the implementation uses OSI mapping is useful - but any algorithm for encoding coordinate data can use OSI mapping. OSI maps can fail too - certainly do on my estate! How is Loc8code any different.

It's not.

It's not a defacto geolocation code either - and outside of licensed usage it is an entirely arbitrary code.

As for not wanting anyone to make money from postcodes; yes, I stand squarely by that. The country is screwed and borrowing money we can never pay back. We cannot afford so much. It would be ludicrous to spend money on a toy-postcode scheme that has largely hobbled functionality and appears to be spearheaded by an angry nutjob.

http://tinyurl.com/openpostcode is a working proof of concept of the best available geolocation-encoding code for Ireland. The proof of concept relies on Google maps to demonstrate - however, as documented on site, it can take any location data - including the most accurate readings known to man and encode them to within a circle 2.74 metres radius.

It creates codes with can be easily converted back to their coordinates (if they started out accurate to within a hair on a gnat's arse they will convert back to within 2.74m of the said hair - actually on average the error would only be 1.37m). The codes are hierarchical: defining smaller and smaller areas as more of the code is used. The codes sort correctly. Neighbouring codes are similar. Thus the codes are easier to remember. The coding includes provision for outlying regions of Irish territory.

http://tinyurl.com/openpostcode as a very simple site, hosted on just Google Pages, using only free technologies and demonstrating in open clear javascript just how easily the algorithm can be implemented in any program, database, or spreadsheet; is testament to how easy it is.

I will stick to the facts in describing the code and its purpose. I will also refuse to accept anymore nonsense tantrums from Mr. Loc8code. My private life has nothing to do with you or anything else in this discussion - and that includes my profession.

thirty-six dragons

Seriously a fella would get very tired on the Loc8code merry-go-round. I wouldn't let you mind my dog, not to mention look after the postcodes for the country.

What's this nonsense about did I read it on the box when referring to the capability of a simple satnav? No, is the answer. I'm sure it can do much better actually. My Garmin shows me how accurate it is at any time and the number of satellites it is listening to. We all know how satnav works Mr. - don't be getting all superior. Maybe if you have a Garmin I can point out for you how to bring up this accuracy screen if you need the help?

As for other ridiculous allegations:

"Regarding Geodirectory - the coordinates in there are in IG and ITM and your solution cannot handle them. Furthermore if the governement wanted to use your solution you would first have to:

1. deal with confusing characters - this would reduce the potential resolution of your solution considerably.
2. ensure that it can be validated - i.e. impose rules that ensure what format it takes rather than being random - if it can be all letters or all numbers how can an individual or a software solution be sure that what it is looking at is definitely your code - a key part of any software solution as you will know and in all reference material about postcodes the validation capability is of particular significance.
3. Invest in quality control and restrict the source to one with verifiable accurcay - i.e. close the solution
4. Remove elements that are the IP of others."

0. Of course the OpenPostcode can use ITM - don't be ridiculous.
1. What confusing characters (apart from GaryDubh)?
2. It's not random. It has a checksum and a defined format.
3. "Close" is a solution to nothing. A postcode is no different logically from a coordinate or an address - neither is closed.
4. There is nothing in the intellectual property of others - a comment which you should immediately clarify or forget. Publicly accusing someone of stealing is not without legal problems in itself. Get answering!

thirty-six dragons

And Mr. Loc8code - we certainly all understand, at least I do, that your site is a commercial operation and far superior to a proof-of-concept site. That is never in doubt. The fact that I don't license OSI maps should be obvious. Why would I; I don't make any money from this. But that doesn't effect the algorithm or the maths or the proposal that government should at least consider that buying a license for a proprietary code is a nonsense when what is being sold is just snake oil on simple maths.

thirty-six dragons

St. George's Church Mitchelstown has a new loc8code "Q75-23-JC5", verified and confirmed and has a reliability of 3 stars. Leave it there a while and it will be 4 stars.

http://www.myloc8ion.com/Q75-23-JC5

Shame it's the wrong church.

Garbage in, garbage out.

garydubh

iantheteacher wrote: »

There's too much wrong with everything you've written. It doesn't pay to answer it all. You actually appear to be quite clueless and rude and don't be long before you make everything personal. Christ, by now you're claiming a 0 metre accuracy for a Loc8code.

I am sorry that you are uncomfortable with being challenged after several weeks of free reign. The points I have raised are legitimate - all the bluster in the world will not make them go away. The repeatable accurcay is +/-0m within the site as stated - contact gary@loc8code.com if you need that explained.

iantheteacher wrote: »

What do I care! Delude away boyo - the maths is straightforward enough. And no such claim is made on the Loc8code website. (We're never quite sure, are we, whether you are actually the Loc8code boyo or not? Odd.)

I am prepared to discuss things scientifically - are you not? I think here on boards.ie and many other places many know who GaryDubh is.

iantheteacher wrote: »

Software patents don't happily exist in Ireland I believe (I could be wrong but it wouldn't matter); but it is published with reference to all open prior art and thus may not be subsequently patented by anyone else.

Take a look at the application;- it includes a lot more than a code/software - its a process that is being patented. We will leave the patenting decisions to those who do it which I do not think is your area. However, as you know all the unique elements of the Loc8 Code do automatically enjoy copyright !

iantheteacher wrote: »

but any algorithm for encoding coordinate data can use OSI mapping. OSI maps can fail too - certainly do on my estate! How is Loc8code any different.

If anyone can use OSI mapping - why don't you - a small matter of putting money where your mouth is perhaps. OSI mapping is the official mapping of the state with equal quality across the whole island - sure it can have ommissions but it is built to a standard - Loc8 Code is not paying a license fee to use it for no reason!

Loc8 Code is different because it is real world tested, is implemented with quality controls, the code itself satisfies identified requirements and the people behind it have put their money where their mouth is to make it work and allow uesrs depend on it.

iantheteacher wrote: »

As for not wanting anyone to make money from postcodes; yes, I stand squarely by that. The country is screwed and borrowing money we can never pay back. We cannot afford so much. It would be ludicrous to spend money on a toy-postcode scheme that has largely hobbled functionality and appears to be spearheaded by an angry nutjob.

It is regreattable again that you do not seem to read detail. Loc8 Code is not delivered as a postcode. But as you are referring to a postcode and claiming yours is one then someone has to pay the cost of implementing and maintaining a postcode system. If there is cost then there must be a return to keep it going. A National Postcode for Ireland, which I personally have misgivings about myself, as stated earlier, could not possibly be a code based on "all_comers" Lat/longs without any investment in quality.

It is regrettable that you feel it necessary to refer to a person you do not agree with as a "nutjob". Perhaps you are used to always getting your way but as I said I will continue to challenge unsubstantiated and unrealistic claims.

iantheteacher wrote: »

http://tinyurl.com/openpostcode is a working proof of concept of the best available geolocation-encoding code for Ireland. The proof of concept relies on Google maps to demonstrate - however, as documented on site, it can take any location data - including the most accurate readings known to man and encode them to within a circle 2.74 metres radius.

so still claiming "the best geoloaction code" even though the means of implementation cannot guarantee 2.7m accuracy, you do not deal with character confusion, predictability or the systematic ability to validate your own code and you claim to handle any location data and yet you do not support ITM or Irish Grid Coordinates which are the official coordinate systems of the state. You cannot keep trotting out this type of claim without legitimate substantiation!

iantheteacher wrote: »

It creates codes with can be easily converted back to their coordinates (if they started out accurate to within a hair on a gnat's arse they will convert back to within 2.74m of the said hair - actually on average the error would only be 1.37m). The codes are hierarchical: defining smaller and smaller areas as more of the code is used. The codes sort correctly. Neighbouring codes are similar. Thus the codes are easier to remember. The coding includes provision for outlying regions of Irish territory.

yes you have said all this but Loc8 Code can do all this too with additional removal of character confusion, has inherent precitability, it can be absoultely validated as a Loc8 Code, it is guaranteed alphanumeric, common errors can be self corrected and it too is hierarchical with Areas, Zones and Localities, is memorable and what's, more people have already memorised it for personal use, it can be sorted, has recognisable adjacency, avoids confusion with BT codes and Loc8 Code is not subject to all the errors related to Lat/longs from unknown sources or from Google. And within the Loc8 Code website, a Loc8 Code is good to +/-1m accuracy (0m repeatable). Furthermore is actually implemented an tested on navigation devices and all of these features have existed long before opencode was ever conceived. So tell me again why you can claim that opencode is "the best available geolocation-encoding code for Ireland"

iantheteacher wrote: »

http://tinyurl.com/openpostcode as a very simple site, hosted on just Google Pages, using only free technologies and demonstrating in open clear javascript just how easily the algorithm can be implemented in any program, database, or spreadsheet; is testament to how easy it is.

there are lots of simple websites out there but we are not talking about websites?

iantheteacher wrote: »

I will stick to the facts in describing the code and its purpose. I will also refuse to accept anymore nonsense tantrums from Mr. Loc8code. My private life has nothing to do with you or anything else in this discussion - and that includes my profession.

I am sorry that after several weeks of free reign you find it difficult now to have someone challenge your claims (and false accustaions on your website) - scientific argument is not "tantrum" and use of the word speaks volumes of the user. If you do not want those interacting with you to refer to your profession then you should not promote it in your username?

To others reading this - most will know that I have been contributing to matters GPS, Location Code and postcode on boards.ie for quite a few years and have a related background in GPS, Navigation and Surveying to back my opinions up. They will also know that I am always prepared to discuss and defend points of view robustly.

I do apologise if this exchange has been tiresome but it is important that unsubstantiated claims are challenged, as well as false accusations about Loc8 Code on here and on the opencode website (deliberately hiding the code and over complicating for obfuscation reasons to mention a few such accusations) and inclusion of elements in the opencode which very obviously were gleaned from exchanges here and are clearly the IP of others)

garydubh

iantheteacher wrote: »

St. George's Church Mitchelstown has a new loc8code "Q75-23-JC5", verified and confirmed and has a reliability of 3 stars. Leave it there a while and it will be 4 stars.


Shame it's the wrong church.

Garbage in, garbage out.

When this is deleted by the process this will be a wasted post!

garydubh

iantheteacher wrote: »

And Mr. Loc8code - we certainly all understand, at least I do, that your site is a commercial operation and far superior to a proof-of-concept site. That is never in doubt. The fact that I don't license OSI maps should be obvious. Why would I; I don't make any money from this. But that doesn't effect the algorithm or the maths or the proposal that government should at least consider that buying a license for a proprietary code is a nonsense when what is being sold is just snake oil on simple maths.

Who said they are going to buy anyone's code - looks like you are getting worked up for no resaon at all. As I said earlier Loc8 Code is not delivered as a National postcode and given the facts, Government may want it dumbed down substantailly in order to use it at all.

As I said earlier, I think you won't have to worry about any of that for quite a while iantheteacher and anyhow a code with an open source for codes of varying quality will never be on the agenda - one code for your house from Geodirectory and another from a spurious Lat/long from the Satnav - just would not work - opencode would have to be renamed closedcode!

SPDUB

iantheteacher wrote: »

There's too much wrong with everything you've written. It doesn't pay to answer it all. You actually appear to be quite clueless and rude and don't be long before you make everything personal.

I will stick to the facts in describing the code and its purpose. I will also refuse to accept anymore nonsense tantrums from Mr. Loc8code. My private life has nothing to do with you or anything else in this discussion - and that includes my profession.

These are basically the reasons why he was banned from the Wikipedia article on postcodes

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Garydubh&redirect=no&action=edit&redlink=1

garydubh

iantheteacher wrote: »

What's this nonsense about did I read it on the b
ox when referring to the capability of a simple satnav? No, is the answer. I'm sure it can do much better actually. My Garmin shows me how accurate it is at any time and the number of satellites it is listening to. We all know how satnav works Mr. - don't be getting all superior. Maybe if you have a Garmin I can point out for you how to bring up this accuracy screen if you need the help? !

So the SatNav knows exactly where you are does it? The accuracy statement given on the screen is an assessment - not fact and does not take into account multipath and other similar errors. Furthermore, 3m is not guaranteed repeatable in any location - it depends on so many things not least the fact that it is a real current position which it does not have to be to save the location. I would not make these points unless I had very good reason for doing so. If if were a handheld GPS it might have better accuracy potential in hand rather than in the car but then the Lat/Long manually transferred could be in Ireland 1965 datum and straight away 30m approx in the wrong place for that reason. Again I make these points because they are recognised errors and I have noted them with users over a long career in navigation and over 14 years teaching and supporting GPS, navigation and surveying. I had one telecoms client ring me once me to say the GPS was hundreds of kilometers out - fact was the user was not allowing it to calculate an up to date position at all before saving the position and experienced users will confirm that you can save a position even without allowing the unit to achieve a current position at all. The client was just recording the last known position where it was last properly running - hundreds of kilmotres away! Sitting indoors with your iphone or ipad will rarely produce this type of accuracy. You may well know better but most do not so you cannot make generalised accuaracy statements and once you leave it in the hands of the untrained - you have no control over accurcay at all! As I said take a good look at user entered images and notes on Google Earth and see the errors that are being made.

Unfortunately, these are the realities that have to be acknowledged. I really do not think you can dismiss what is professional understanding out of hand without taking it into account in any proposed solution - the old tomato thing all over again!

iantheteacher wrote: »

0. Of course the OpenPostcode can use ITM - don't be ridiculous. I cannot find anywhere on your site where you take or handle ITM metric grid coordinates? In fact here you tell people where they should convert them before coming to your site at all?
1. What confusing characters - already explained in my earlier post - and in the detailed spec of Loc8 Code.
2. It's not random. It has a checksum and a defined format. Can it be all letters - all numbers or a combination? - can letters/numbers appear randomly anywhere in the code?
3. "Close" is a solution to nothing. A postcode is no different logically from a coordinate or an address - neither is closed. You have not really considered this fully it seems

4. There is nothing in the intellectual property of others - a comment which you should immediately clarify or forget. Publicly accusing someone of stealing is not without legal problems in itself. for a different forum I guess then

garydubh

SPDUB wrote: »

These are basically the reasons why he was banned from the Wikipedia article on postcodes

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Garydubh&redirect=no&action=edit&redlink=1

Where does this say GaryDubh was banned?

thirty-six dragons

The OpenPostcode is an algorithm - which is a set and sequence of formulae for encoding and decoding geolocation data. It is not an online service. The website documents the algorithm and demonstrates, quite effectively, the performance of the code.

The OpenPostcode algorithm can be run on any data set - including ITM coordinates. Indeed it can be adapted to any country or region. That direct ITM translation is not demonstrated on the proof of concept site is irrelevant to anyone who understands algorithms and cartography.

I am not offering anyone a service - I am offering an algorithm. Do with it what you will. There is no need to buy a license from the OSI to demonstrate the maths. In fact loc8code is free to take it on (after all, it is better than yours).

The OpenPostcode is the most accurate code available - owning nothing to the copyrighted, or otherwise, design of the loc8code. Thank you for acknowledging that there is nothing to be said for your initial claim that it infringed someone's intellectual property rights. Indeed thank you for taking the time to document how different and in your eyes superior the loc8code is to the OpenPostcode and therefore underlining the essential difference between the codes and their respective systems of deployment. This was an important acknowledgement. The GoCode people must be very relieved.

As per the loc8code website:

"Loc8 Codes are the brand new GPS codes for Ireland and Northern Ireland that make finding properties and locations easy. They consist of 8 alphanumeric characters which define locations to an accuracy of +/-6 metres. The system has been developed by GPS experts in Ireland and revolutionises the way we locate homes, businesses, services and events." http://www.myloc8ion.com/about/what-is-loc8-code

It does not provide any extra granularity of precision for the loc8code to use maps accurate to 1 metre. The translation from location information to the loc8code will still, as documented, lose perhaps a further 6 metres of accuracy.

To say that the loc8code has a repeatable accuracy of 0 metres is a ridiculous notion. It merely means that the code will always repeat the same location - this would be true of nearly the worst possible code imaginable. The accuracy you imagine is after location data is scaled up from the 1 metre precise map.

It must be a deliberate attempt to confuse - or else you are not the person who initially designed the code and don't understand it.

There are no confusing characters in the OpenPostcode - the code has a defined format and a number of self-checking techniques. It is opensource and free to use and to calculate. Which also means that it makes logical and sortable codes - not obfuscated arbitrary jumbles. It is a true geolocation code - which it is interesting appears now to sound like a problem to the people from loc8code.

The fact that an OpenPostcode can be created from SatNav data, from any kind of map, from the OSI maps should a service wish to license it; seems now to be worry. I think it's a great thing. I noticed recently the barcodes on the telephone poles, or maybe it was electricity - anyway it was a utility pole - how neat if something like this actually used an OpenPostcode instead. Simpler to report problems and certainly trivial to map and navigate to any encoded pole. You need on-site mapping for that - not sure the OSI map is going to help totally.

Importantly, one might ask why the obsession with one single regulated postcode for every location. It might actually suit me to provide slightly different postcode to different organisation - I could track data usage. As long as each code resolved back to the location here (whether it is at the gate, half way up the lane, or at the front door - that's the beauty when you have precision of under 3 metres) it would make no difference to me. It would also make no difference to any service provider or individual using the code as OpenPostcodes are instantly converted to their location data with a simple algorithm - this, granted, could not be done with a loc8code; but with and OpenPostcode, easy. Anyone running address validation software would also be able to confirm that the code was in the expected location.

The experiment of placing a "verified" and "confirmed" loc8code for St. George's Church on the wrong church in Mitchelstown proved to demonstrate that in any database it will be the passage of time and use of the data that will confer authoritative status on the entry. A loc8code has to go through the same process as anything else - the "verification" is in no way integral to the code or the website service running it.

garydubh

iantheteacher wrote: »

The OpenPostcode algorithm can be run on any data set - including ITM coordinates. Indeed it can be adapted to any country or region. That direct ITM translation is not demonstrated on the proof of concept site is irrelevant to anyone who understands algorithms and cartography. .

so when you said "Of course the OpenPostcode can use ITM - don't be ridiculous" - this was not really true?

iantheteacher wrote: »

It does not provide any extra granularity of precision for the loc8code to use maps accurate to 1 metre. The translation from location information to the loc8code will still, as documented, lose perhaps a further 6 metres of accuracy. .

The website states the worst case scenario not the best and if you are not to consider something at all because its not on a website, then there is not much point in discussion really!

iantheteacher wrote: »

To say that the loc8code has a repeatable accuracy of 0 metres is a ridiculous notion. It merely means that the code will always repeat the same location - this would be true of nearly the worst possible code imaginable. The accuracy you imagine is after location data is scaled up from the 1 metre precise map. .

I do not think you are really taking time to consider this fully - errors occur in conversions - if recorded already to 1m accuracy already and used through the website then no conversion takes place - hence 0 related conversion error - QED (Simplezz!!!)

thirty-six dragons

Excellent - it does force a 0 metre accuracy by keeping a separate database of the exact map location selected on the site. Which I must say is sweet - but this functionality cannot exist in devices not connected to this database. The code does not contain the exact precise location - that is only in the a function of the website. It is an approach at odds with any opensource code and any system which doesn't have a central database. Precision is still +/- 6 metres; even on the site, as only one loc8code can occupy the space. But works nicely on the site (makes it impossible to actually test the precision of the code itself though).

For a while there I thought you were pure drunk or something - your assertions about the maths made no sense.

How does this work on a GPS device not connected to the database? Or will the GPS device give a slightly different result (not that a few metres really matters too much, granted)?

antoinolachtnai

garydubh wrote: »

As opencode does not control the source and quality of the location information being used to create the codes;- then it most definitely cannot claim any "greater fine level detail" than others or even any related accuracy at all! In fact the truth is that the accuracy of an opencode is in truth "uncontrollable" or "unknown" and not +/- 3m as claimed! Its accuracy is at the mercy of the contributing Lat/Longs. Those created from Google Maps/Earth can be in error by up to 30 or 40 metres in parts of Ireland (image ground truthing and coverage issues). Lat/Longs published on the web are often kilometres out and Lat/Longs without the associated datum taken into account can be multiple kilometres in the wrong place. (multiple datums exist and Lat/longs can be created in different datums depending on the source!)

I am glad you have come around to my point of view. In 2008, you asserted almost exactly the opposite. Your previous position was that GPS from a consumer unit in the middle latitudes could easily be accurate to within 2 metres. You also considered web mapping solutions like Google and Yahoo (which were far less accurate then than they are now) to be perfectly adequate.

You said that anybody would be able to use a GPS to get coordinates and use it to get their own code. (what you said was that 'anyone can just use a satnav or web map services to locate their property and get a PON Code - and if they cannot do it - then someone else can do it for them') Now you have changed that position.

You also said that inaccuracy of 10 or 20 meters would make no practical difference. Again, you have changed your position.

(You put forward your previous position here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055216992&page=17)

The understanding and control of all of these potential error sources being a classic case of how Wisdom is separated from Knowledge and how professionals are separated from opportunists. Quite honestly anything calling itself a postcode and at the same time not making any effort to control the quality of the source from which the postcode is to be created is more than a little "fruity" to say the least.

In 2008, you said that no database of codes was required. You now appear to be of the view that a database is required, but that is not quite clear.

I do not really mind your taking my views on board and integrating them into your system and your patent application, but you were so vociferous at the time, claiming that those views were wrong. In fact, you were vociferous to the point of being insulting. Again and again you implied that I did not know what I was talking about. I am glad you have come round and taken my points on board, but it is a pity you could not be a bit more gracious. I don't think there is a need to be so patronizing to people who are thinking in exactly the same way as you were thinking only three years ago.

It is for these reasons together with 2 years of beta testing and 31 years of related experience that the Loc8 Code process does not allow anyone to enter Lat/longs or Grid coordinates on its public site in order to prevent the generation of Loc8 Codes of dubious quality.

It looks like you have benefited in large measure from information you have obtained in this forum and that your patent application has benefited greatly from that information.

To be very clear, the source of Loc8 Codes is absolutely controlled and in the main limited to www.loc8code.com where OSI/OSNI mapping is used and a code must be generated at 1:1000 scale where the map precision is in the order of +/-1 metre. Therefore, a validated Loc8 Code created in the site and used via a web application (the only way that an opencode can currently be used so a direct comparison) is potentially +/- 1m accuracy and therefore better than any other Location code promoted in this thread or elsewhere.

The percentage of the land mass covered by 1:1000 mapping is fairly small.

In a non-web scenario on disconnected SatNavs, (no other has this capability) the validated +/- 1m accuracy web created Loc8 Code has an accuracy in the order of +/- 5.2m on average and controllable as such.

Who exactly is validating the 1m accuracy (or 5.2m accuracy, or whatever) of web created Loc8 codes?

That is why the more than 5,000 Loc8 Codes currently appearing on commercial websites across the island can all be absolutely relied upon to get you there.

As you also know, on the web Loc8 uses a system of star ratings to further qualify the reliability of the codes. www.loc8code.com/help and www.loc8code.com/W8L-82-4YK and this is the reason that Loc8 encourages users to validate and take responsibility for their codes.

So are you standing by each codes' absolute accuracy or not? Are you validating them and if not, who is taking responsibility for their accuracy? Are all codes absolutely accurate? Or only codes with the highest star accuracy?

So opencode suffers from being "open source" - i.e. because of its "openness" it can be created from any Lat/long from any source of any quality and therefore could never be relied upon by emergency services/couriers/service providers or users of any sort;- in fact it offers very minimal benefits over the Lat/long itself from which it is calculated in the first place. Some might say that an error of 30/40m doesn't really matter - well yes it does if people are to find places efficiently including if the destination is adjacent to one-way systems, dual carriageways, rivers, canals, motorways or back gardens of houses in another estate where such errors could mean detours of several kilometres.

I consider this a welcome revision to your views of a few years ago. What you said then was:

'If the user is wrong by 10-20 meters it makes no difference in a vehicle arriving outside the door! - i.e. we are talking about Navigation here not surveying! (GPS Ireland trains GPS Surveyors also if there any prospective students out there!)'

Equally, if promoters of their own code are claiming unsubstantiated 3m accuracies, then it most certainly matters for that reason also!

You were making very similar unsubstantiated claims not that long ago.

Furthermore, there also seems to have been a suggestion from the same quarter that Loc8 Code hides the means by which the code is created. This is not the case, the construction of the code is in the public domain for quite some time and it is here for anyone to see: http://www.sumobrain.com/patents/wipo/Navigation-method-using-geographic-location/WO2011073965A1.pdf The process that led to this being published started nearly 6 years ago and not just a few weeks ago!

According to your paperwork, your application for priority appears to have been made in 2009, not 2005 as you now claim.

From the detailed specification you will see that a Loc8 Code is not a random set of characters like others - it is carefully engineered so that certain things can be guaranteed:- i.e. accuracy, predictability, validation capability (helped by being guaranteed alphanumeric amongst other things and definitely a "big deal"), sortable, has qualities of adjacency, no unwanted combinations can be created and is self checking as well as many other qualities. You will also note that Loc8 Code also eliminates characters such as V appearing after V as its looks like a W or V and W appearing side by side unless it is known which is first for the same reason (VW) and for obvious reasons WWW cannot appear either. Control of the use of C,G, H,M etc is also imposed unlike others promoted here to avoid confusion in hand writing and these and other controls favour quality and the elimination of sources of possible confusion over and above the drive for higher resolution. Also possible confusion between 1,L,5,S, Z,2, B,8 etc etc is solved by the unique design of the checker code - again something not done by others and all the reasons that Loc8 is superior and is in no way random like others. Many of the designed-in qualities of Loc8 Codes are synopsised here: http://www.loc8code.com/about/what-is-a-loc8-code In short, Loc8 Code was designed to satisfy certain minimum requirements rather than being just the random output of a basic calculation.

I am glad you have taken on board some of concerns about problems with alphanumeric characters. Previously your position was 'People sucessfully deal with handling letters in addresses on phones everyday of the week - if they do not know the phonetic alphabet they routinely invent their own - give people some credit Antoin - no need to invent problems where they do not exist - we are as intelligent as those in the UK who handle UK postcodes on phones daily and routinely use them in SatNav's'

Mind you, I do not think you go far enough. It does seem to me that in spoken use the W and the V are very open to confusion when used by many non-English native speakers, particularly those from Northern Europe. Perhaps the next version of the code in a few years will resolve this.

MGRS would seem to have many of the same good qualities as your code and has been under test for a considerably longer period of time.

It is great to see the algorithm available on this website. It was trivial to reverse-engineer in any case. However, does the public availability of this algorithm not mean that what you said above about the benefit of a closed-source code does not in fact apply to LOC8 codes? The reality is that I can make my own Android app, which implements your algorithm and then I can make codes that look and behave exactly like LOC8 codes? (The only difference is that they are not in your central address database. I think the idea of having a database of correct codes is an excellent one.) There is no cryptographic protection, just 'security by obscurity', which turns out not to be very obscure at all.

It is very notable that protection against confusion with the BT postcode was highlighted on 18th July last by me in this thread and very shortly afterwards opencode was adjusted to include this as a feature. Some call this flattery, but too much more of this type of flattery might be hard to take!

I have some idea what you might mean.

Yes indeed, Loc8 Code is protected by copyright (an automatic entitlement) and by a patent priority to ensure the quality of all Loc8 Codes and also to protect the interests of those who have supported and invested in the solution. (Enterprise Ireland included)

Do you think you can hold a copyright in an algorithm? I know you can hold a copyright in one particular expression of it in a particular notation, but any algorithm can be expressed in any number of notations. Would this copyright cover these other expressions?

I don't think you can patent an algorithm, can you? What exactly will the patent protect? Will it stop people from creating an application to create Loc8-like codes without your permission? Are you certain of this? It will be important for your fee-payers to have certainty that you will be able to protect the integrity of the code as you have promised.

Those who get to use Loc8 Code calculations in applications and services are controlled because the aim is to protect the quality and reliability of all Loc8 Codes used in the public domain. Loc8 Codes created from Lat/longs (or grid coordinates) that nobody knows the origins or quality of are not permitted.

How do you stop people calculating their own Loc8 codes without your permission? Other than excluding them from adding to your database of codes? Will you vigorously pursue your patent to stop this?

How do you stop people who cannot read maps from adding wrong codes to the database?

Loc8 Codes must be reliable and that is why Loc8 has invested substantial resources and time in developing, field testing and refining the nature of the code and licensing high accuracy Ordnance Survey Mapping (not free) to deliver them in the first place.

Do you have warranties in your licence from the Ordnance Survey in relation to accuracy?

Does your licence permit you to create derivative works from the Ordnance Survey Mapping? (A yes or no answer would be fine).

So if it is alleged as if a crime in this thread that Loc8 Code is a "protected closed source code" - yes indeed it is and this is absolutely the case to ensure its reliability and quality and therefore there is nothing bad about this at all as appears to have been suggested.

I am glad to hear that.

Does this mean that you have to pay to use it - not necessarily - but it does mean that those who can use the algorithm to create Loc8 Codes and how it is used are rigidly controlled but absolutely contrary to claims.........

• Anyone can go to www.loc8code.com and generate a Loc8 Code for any location from the Map to +/- 1 metre accuracy and at no cost !

Do companies wanting to use Loc8 Codes for commercial purposes have to pay ? - yes they do! Why? - well because of the controlled quality of the code and the investment and infrastructure and ongoing full-time support behind it, which guarantees time and fuel savings for them as well as other very significant benefits to their operations.

How much will commercial users have to pay?

If you want to use Loc8 Code in any developed solution then just talk to Loc8 Code, as many have done already, and this may not mean that you have to pay - but all users can be sure that Loc8 will control the way Loc8 Codes are created so that users from Ireland (North and South) and those visiting Ireland can rely on them to get where they want to go quickly and efficiently.

So you are guaranteeing the reliability of the codes generated on your site, i.e, if I get sent a 5-star rated code derived using the website for the McCluskeys' farmyard in Illies, Co. Donegal, will you guarantee that it will bring me to within 1 metre of it?

Finally, I would like to refer to discussion about a postcode for Ireland. Loc8 Code is not currently delivered to Ireland as a postcode. It could be and has been offered as one but in the circumstances of it being a National postcode it would be delivered to the country in different ways. Loc8 Codes are currently offered as high quality, reliable location codes which can offer efficiencies to many in the Logistics, Tourism and Emergency Services businesses. In the event of them becoming a national postcode, each property owner/occupier would be delivered their Loc8 Code manually as well as electronically using An Post's GeoDirectory (now subject to postal liberalisation rules) as the basis. The cost of this would be substantial but this would be costed into the service implementation and the transfer of related ownerships to the state.

You mean you are offering to sell your business to the government?

1.8 million Loc8 Codes have already been allocated to addresses in the GeoDirectory for some commercial users but Loc8 Codes right now for the general public are elective;- you create and use them if you feel they are going to be beneficial to you or to a service provider on which you are depending - they are not imposed on anyone and there is no cost to create one! However, Loc8 does invest a lot of resources in making sure the means by which Loc8 Codes are created are as precise as possible. This makes "closed source" a good thing in this case rather than a bad one as some seem to have suggested on this thread.

Do you have a license to create a derivative work from the GeoDirectory?

garydubh

iantheteacher wrote: »

Ah that's not true at all. You're being silly now. There's no maths or logic in what you are saying. There are no "errors" in conversion; but the encoding from geolocation data to a short code necessarily introduces a granular precision - it cannot be infinite. The loc8code is certainly not 0 metres precise. I'm just losing all faith in you now - beginning to think you're drunk or something.

Be careful now Ian no one said "0 metres precise" - as I said if no conversion or "encoding"/decoding takes place then no conversion error occurs - you work it out - its a fact! - bluster and insult do not make real arguments go away!

Main point of today was to highlight that unsubstantiated claims will be eventually be challenged by someone and a bullish intransigence will not always make others surrender. Hopefully you will see a way to remove misleading statements about Loc8 Codes from your website sometime soon! Finally if you want to claim to be the best - please be sure that you compare like with like - that's only fair I think!

Sponge Bob

garydubh wrote: »

Finally if you want to claim to be the best - please be sure that you compare like with like - that's only fair I think!

What happened to them PON Codes of yours anyway , you know the ones you replaced with LOC8 codes a few years later.

Did you provide any backward compatibility with PON codes ??

thirty-six dragons

The OpenPostcode as described at http://tinyurl.com/openpostcode out rides the loc8code as a geocoding algorithm. Fact - it is more precise; it is open; it is sortable; it is more easily memorable; it can even be shorter! The very fact that a secondary device of a database is needed to supplement the encoding abilities of the loc8code is testament to that. The OpenPostcode provides more postcodes per square kilometer; the OpenPostcode can be adapted to a million more uses; the OpenPostcode is free. It's better.

You're loc8code site however is just beautiful. Good service. Garmin, integration - fabulous.

Still a worse code.

thirty-six dragons

Sponge Bob wrote: »

What happened to them PON Codes of yours anyway , you know the ones you replaced with LOC8 codes a few years later.

Did you provide any backward compatibility with PON codes ??

Ah no that's not too relevant - a fella is allowed to come up with better things, surely.

garydubh

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Do you have a license to create a derivative work from the GeoDirectory?

We license Loc8 to others Antoin!

How are your own plans coming along - changed to the road numbers idea from ED's I understand?

Sponge Bob

iantheteacher wrote: »

Ah no that's not too relevant - a fella is allowed to come up with better things, surely.

But why was backward compatility not maintained one wonders????

Maybe it was the distraction caused by the Spat with Openstreetmap as well as the one with the Wikipedia......but it is never the wrong time to do the right thing and sort the backward compatability out between LOC8 and PON...especially seeing as he has both algos and all.

garydubh

Sponge Bob wrote: »

What happened to them PON Codes of yours anyway , you know the ones you replaced with LOC8 codes a few years later.

As widely known - PON codes were beta test - Loc8 Codes are full release and now owned by Loc8 Code Ltd not GPS Ireland - two distinct companies! You might remember there was an official launch on 12th July last year with related press release - you must have missed it all! Let me know if I can help further!

Sponge Bob

garydubh wrote: »

As widely known - PON codes were beta test - Loc8 Codes are full release and now owned by Loc8 Code Ltd not GPS Ireland - two distinct companies!

I suppose anyone with a Garmin Nuvi 7xx Series ( which was sold commercially with "Beta" era PON/PONC code support) got a free upgrade to LOC8 capability seeing as the oul backward compatibility does not seem not to work.

I was always just a tad surprised to find my old PON code was out on the Atlantic once Loc8 was released.

garydubh

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I suppose anyone with a Garmin Nuvi 7xx Series ( which was sold commercially with "Beta" era PON/PONC code support) got a free upgrade to LOC8 capability seeing as the oul backward compatibility does not seem not work.

I was always just a tad surprised to find my old PON code was out on the Atlantic once Loc8 was released.

No one was sold PON Codes Sponge Bob - they had limited beta test availability through GPS Ireland only - and never were commercially released on the 7xx series by Garmin. If you had them it was for testing purposes only and every PON Code created at the time was clearly identified as Beta test..

Do you have a Garmin now?