National Postcodes to be introduced

swampgas

Irish Steve wrote: »

[...]
So, based on the information from EIrcode's site, apparently, there are 2.2 Million address codes for the country, and each code is 9 characters, and to be capable of navigating to the code location, there then has to be some form of Lat Long associated with each Eircode, so that's going to need somewhere in the region of 27 characters per code, so if we then work on 2.2 Million locations, the database for that is going to require 2.2 Million x 27, which is over 60 Mb of data storage, which would mean that the GPS can navigate to the location of the eircode.

I'd imagine that the data would be capable of being compressed significantly, especially if a tuned compression algorithm was used. I'd expect a 50% reduction in size at the very least.

ukoda

Jack180570 wrote: »

God Help us ukoda, that is awful misfortune, its a terror what can happen to a clever intelligent person like yourself... I downloaded the point 8 app and its free and it works... i put in the Loc8 Code into my sat nav and it works... I dont use google maps while I am driving as it is an offence to use my phone while Im driving... oh and I was able to use Loc8 Code in my satnav from the day I bought it.... I must be the luckiest person in the world and you must be the most unlucky....

Point8 is €4.99 in the Apple App Store

https://appsto.re/ie/tBSrz.i

Jack180570

:pac: thanks for the laugh, it would be very funny if your suggestion actually worked. Navigating to a location using google maps requires internet connection and vast areas of rural Ireland does not have sufficient internet connection to allow this to work.

oscarBravo wrote: »

I guess the government switching from Eircodes to Loc8 codes is a simpler solution than you getting a phone holder for your car.

Jack180570

Point 8 is free on android.

ukoda wrote: »

Point8 is €4.99 in the Apple App Store

https://appsto.re/ie/tBSrz.i

larchill

Trouwe Ier wrote: »

While trying to nod off, I did a search for "Limerick V94" and noted that a fair few businesses are now listing their codes.

Top marks to the Council for including their codes in their contacts page too.

I presume they were advised to do so???.

I got a bill from Bórd Gáis Energy but my address was not coded.

I see Louth Co Co have done likewise against all their locations.

JohnC.

Jack180570 wrote: »

Navigating to a location using google maps requires internet connection

Not for much longer.

Aimead

clewbays wrote: »

It wasn't clearly written, I was referring to errors in the X/Y in the GeoDirectory that will require correction.

I get you now. This is fair point but, to be honest, the amount of errors that would require a totally new code should be fairly small. If the X/Y was within, say, 50m of the actual you could make the database entry reflect that and allow the property to keep its assigned geocode.

To clarify what I mean here, it is possible to have a geocode that encodes in three dimensions (x,y,z). Self generated codes will be for z=0, so it would be clear they were self-generated. The range for non-zero z would be reserved for address validation (i.e. these are the codes that are linked to the database). Unless the x,y are massively out then there should be no reason not to allow the property to keep its assigned non-zero z code.

As I say, it is a fair point (and so far ITT the only objection to using a geocode that actually holds to scrutiny imo) but I still challenge the idea that correcting these errors is worth the price of the stack of extra functionality using a geocode base gives.

clewbays wrote: »

It is because it is not just any old postcode it is a World first and leading edge Have you not been reading Minister White's speeches?

This is something that I've noticed about Ireland that I really don't like - it is practically part of our culture to bull**** people. How often have you had a handyman say "I'll get it done by Friday", and you just know it won't be done by Friday. When I was living in Germany I really enjoyed the fact that when someone told you they'd have something done by Friday they fecking meant it.

White's speeches strike me as the politician's extension of the Irish bull**** disease. Keep claiming its leading edge in the hopes some people believe it.....

---

Irish Steve wrote: »

I'm going to stick my neck out here, and say that I will be surprised if Garmin has Eircodes on their system before Summer 2016, given that the Eircode suppliers seem to have not yet decided on how they are going to licence their information to Sat Nav suppliers....

Tbh I doubt that licensing is the bigger issue here, but rather one of securing the database. We tend to think of SatNav's as specialised equipment, but the truth is that more and more they are being built from 'standardised' components. This means being able root them and run your own software. On the other end of the coin you have better and better mapping software being written for mobile phones to the point where you can get an app to completely replace your SatNav.

This is context that Eircode finds itself in. The database only needs to get leaked once for you to have the free app. Trying to prevent the database being leaked is a fool's errand. Either you fail and the whole exercise proves to be a waste of resources, or you succeed in which case you have also crippled usability.

Requiring a constant connection would be one way to secure the database, but that can be ruled out since a) SatNav's weren't designed to work that way and b) Ireland has plenty of regions when mobile connectivity is a pipe dream. If Eircode do decide to go the route of allowing SatNav manufacturers to host a local copy of the database, then question arises of how can they secure it. For the database to be usable on a SatNav the mechanism to decrypt it must be present, this in turn means there is a very high chance some tinkerer will manage to exploit it and extract the database.

This, imho, is the hurdle rather than the licensing. Use of Eircode might require licensees to develop new key-signing mechanisms or even a fundamental change to the usual way a SatNav device operates. The end result is wasted resources, undue burden on device manufacturers and reduced functionality for the end user.

---

Jack180570 wrote: »

thanks for the laugh, it would be very funny if your suggestion actually worked. Navigating to a location using google maps requires internet connection and vast areas of rural Ireland does not have sufficient internet connection to allow this to work.

Given that you can get SatNav apps that run on your phone just fine without an internet connection I'd be very surprised if Google didn't follow suit.

SpaceTime

They were interviewed on local radio in west cork and seemed to think they were a couple of months away from Google maps etc

ukoda

Aimead wrote: »

I get you now. This is fair point but, to be honest, the amount of errors that would require a totally new code should be fairly small. If the X/Y was within, say, 50m of the actual you could make the database entry reflect that and allow the property to keep its assigned geocode.

To clarify what I mean here, it is possible to have a geocode that encodes in three dimensions (x,y,z). Self generated codes will be for z=0, so it would be clear they were self-generated. The range for non-zero z would be reserved for address validation (i.e. these are the codes that are linked to the database). Unless the x,y are massively out then there should be no reason not to allow the property to keep its assigned non-zero z code.

As I say, it is a fair point (and so far ITT the only objection to using a geocode that actually holds to scrutiny imo) but I still challenge the idea that correcting these errors is worth the price of the stack of extra functionality using a geocode base gives.

This is something that I've noticed about Ireland that I really don't like - it is practically part of our culture to bull**** people. How often have you had a handyman say "I'll get it done by Friday", and you just know it won't be done by Friday. When I was living in Germany I really enjoyed the fact that when someone told you they'd have something done by Friday they fecking meant it.

White's speeches strike me as the politician's extension of the Irish bull**** disease. Keep claiming its leading edge in the hopes some people believe it.....

---

Tbh I doubt that licensing is the bigger issue here, but rather one of securing the database. We tend to think of SatNav's as specialised equipment, but the truth is that more and more they are being built from 'standardised' components. This means being able root them and run your own software. On the other end of the coin you have better and better mapping software being written for mobile phones to the point where you can get an app to completely replace your SatNav.

This is context that Eircode finds itself in. The database only needs to get leaked once for you to have the free app. Trying to prevent the database being leaked is a fool's errand. Either you fail and the whole exercise proves to be a waste of resources, or you succeed in which case you have also crippled usability.

Requiring a constant connection would be one way to secure the database, but that can be ruled out since a) SatNav's weren't designed to work that way and b) Ireland has plenty of regions when mobile connectivity is a pipe dream. If Eircode do decide to go the route of allowing SatNav manufacturers to host a local copy of the database, then question arises of how can they secure it. For the database to be usable on a SatNav the mechanism to decrypt it must be present, this in turn means there is a very high chance some tinkerer will manage to exploit it and extract the database.

This, imho, is the hurdle rather than the licensing. Use of Eircode might require licensees to develop new key-signing mechanisms or even a fundamental change to the usual way a SatNav device operates. The end result is wasted resources, undue burden on device manufacturers and reduced functionality for the end user.

---

Given that you can get SatNav apps that run on your phone just fine without an internet connection I'd be very surprised if Google didn't follow suit.

I think people are getting a bit confused as to what ericodes revenue model is.

If there's a leaked copy of the ECAD out there then no legitimate company is going to use it over the official ECAD.

The main revenue for ericode will be via the Value Added Retailers and the services they offer, encoding, API's, address capture etc

A standalone one off copy of the ECAD wouldn't be that tempting to anyone who needs an actual service from ericode or one of the VAR's.

In the UK, they freely give to anyone the database of postcodes and the corresponding geocodes, which is all that's needed for most app developers and sat nav companies, yet Royal Mail still managed to monetise their postcode database and sell services to companies

Sam Russell

ukoda wrote: »

In the UK, they freely give to anyone the database of postcodes and the corresponding geocodes, which is all that's needed for most app developers and sat nav companies, yet Royal Mail still managed to monetise their postcode database and sell services to companies

You appear to be strong on the idea that Eircodes main use is to generate revenues for Capita.

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

You appear to be strong on the idea that Eircodes main use is to generate revenues for Capita.

How have you come to that conclusion? The previous poster said that once a leaked copy of ECAD gets out then it will erode the revenue that eircode can make, I don't think this is true, as per my example

At no point did I imply or directly claim that ericodes main purpose was revenue generation?

And secondly, can someone provide a source to state that the revenue is owned by capita and not the state? Because I'm not clear on this, I was under the impression that capita were on a fixed priced contract for a fixed number of years to operate the postcode on behalf of the government, I'm open to correction on this, but if you claim otherwise, pls back it up with a source. I don't know if I'm right or wrong.

TheChizler

Sam Russell wrote: »

It might be 2 weeks since the Eircode was made 'official' but it is 6 years since this thread started, and it is a long time since the 'Spring 2015 Launch' which was loudly trumpeted, or even the 'Early 2015' launch.

It was signed into law only a few days before launch, are you suggesting that either they sell an expensive database that may or may not be made legal in advance, which would be a huge risk to those companies (who would buy something that had the potential to be scrapped), or delay the public launch further until whenever third parties get their act together?

Calina

TheChizler wrote: »

It was signed into law only a few days before launch, are you suggesting that either they sell an expensive database that may or may not be made legal in advance, which would be a huge risk to those companies (who would buy something that had the potential to be scrapped), or delay the public launch further until whenever third parties get their act together?

So we spent a few million on a postcode system before deciding whether it was legal or not?

JacquesSon

Is there a grid system where you can work out where an address is from the code. if you're a complete dumbass who doesn't know where Milltown is for example?

Sam Russell

All that was signed into law was the data protection element to absolve Eircode from any ramifications. It would not have mattered but it has released Eircode from actions re Data Protection.

oscarBravo

JacquesSon wrote: »

Is there a grid system where you can work out where an address is from the code. if you're a complete dumbass who doesn't know where Milltown is for example?

https://finder.eircode.ie

moyners

Trouwe Ier wrote: »

While trying to nod off, I did a search for "Limerick V94" and noted that a fair few businesses are now listing their codes.

Top marks to the Council for including their codes in their contacts page too.

I presume they were advised to do so???.

I got a bill from Bórd Gáis Energy but my address was not coded.

I just did the same for Cork T12 and was quite surprised at the large amount of companies and websites that already have their eircodes up. These will filter through to Google's search data - I can't see them not wanting to be able to map them if there's the demand there.

One thing that is annoying me though is that I have put in a few eircodes on my address book (so I can remember them), Google won't map the address at the moment if the eircode is included in the address even if the rest is perfect. Not a big deal but annoying when you want to get directions up on your phone quickly. Even if they don't implement eircode I hope they at least adjust their systems to at least ignore it and map the rest of the address!

ukoda

moyners wrote: »

I just did the same for Cork T12 and was quite surprised at the large amount of companies and websites that already have their eircodes up. These will filter through to Google's search data - I can't see them not wanting to be able to map them if there's the demand there.

One thing that is annoying me though is that I have put in a few eircodes on my address book (so I can remember them), Google won't map the address at the moment if the eircode is included in the address even if the rest is perfect. Not a big deal but annoying when you want to get directions up on your phone quickly. Even if they don't implement eircode I hope they at least adjust their systems to at least ignore it and map the rest of the address!

you're right, I'm on page 6 of a Google search of "T12 cork" and there's loads of listings coming up still

TheBustedFlush

Interesting exercise, if you put in the routing keys into Google on their own and see what comes up. Lots of businesses around the country promoting that they've added their Eircode to their address and providing it. Certainly positive signs for businesses adopting the code into their systems/websites.

Found this piece of analysis already done by CSO re BER ratings for "dwellings" sorted by eircode routing key. Total number of dwellings with an Eircode using 2011 census data is 2,003,914.

It's from a release issued by CSO earlier this month and contains specific data on counties and routing keys attached to them:


County
Main Eircode Routing Keys

Carlow
R21, R93, R95
Cavan
A81, A82, F91, H12, H14, H16
Clare
V14, V15, V94, V95
Cork City
T12, T23
Cork County
P12, P14, P17, P24, P25, P31, P32, P36, P43, P47, P51, P56, P61, P67, P72, P75, P81, P85, T12, T23, T34, T45, T56
Donegal
F91, F92, F93, F94
Dublin City
D01-D24 including D6W
Dublin County
A41, A42, A45, A94, A96, K32, K34, K36, K45, K56, K67, K78
Galway City
H91
Galway County
F42, F45, H53, H54, H62, H65, H71, H91
Kerry
P51, V23, V31, V92, V93
Kildare
A83, R14, R51, R56, W12, W23, W34, W91
Kilkenny
E32, E41, R95, X91
Laois
R14, R32, R93
Leitrim
F91, H12, N41
Limerick City
V94
Limerick County
P56, V35, V42, V94
Longford
N39
Louth
A91, A92
Mayo
F12, F23, F26, F28, F31, F35
Meath
A82, A83, A84, A85, A86, A92, C15, K32
Monaghan
A75, A81, H18, H23
Offaly
R32, R35, R42, R45
Roscommon
F42, F45, F52, N37, N39, N41
Sligo
F26, F52, F56, F91
Tipperary
E21, E25, E32, E34, E41, E45, E53, E91, V94
Waterford City
X91
Waterford County
P36, P51, X35, X42, X91
Westmeath
N37, N91
Wexford
Y21, Y25, Y34, Y35
Wicklow
A63, A67, A98, W91, Y14


Wonder how long it would take for a regular person sorting parcels/mail, etc to remember/recognise which county has which routing keys and vice versa?

And for local people to know the location/area of routing keys around them?

Cork City and and County only uses P and T in its routing keys.

Dublin D, A and K

Limerick City and County mainly V with a single P (presumably adjacent with a Cork key)

Sligo is only F.

However, here's the kicker from the CSO release - "The table contains a provisional listing of routing keys by county. The list is indicative only as it is not based on an analysis of the full Eircode database. Dwellings were assigned to an Eircode routing key based on their An Post principal postal town span of delivery rather than on the actual geographical location of the dwelling."

So the first letter isn't wholly indicative of a county since its geographical address may have been perverted by the postal town - and its county - being used as the address.

I can understand a postal town being included in the line of an address, but then deciding to change the county of the house location to the county of the post-town just seems mad as an official address database to issue to the public and to business to use. Surely this has to be changed?

murphaph

We shouldn't be using county names at all in addresses. It's illogical when you use the correct post town and even more pointless when you have a post code to route mail.

Sam Russell

murphaph wrote: »

We shouldn't be using county names at all in addresses. It's illogical when you use the correct post town and even more pointless when you have a post code to route mail.

Just as illogical as supporting a county hurling team just because you were born there and live all your life there when An Post thinks you live somewhere else entirely!

TheBustedFlush

I notice also that An Post have started removing suburb names from Dublin addresses - it now goes

Number, Street/Road name
Dublin X


So bye bye, Ringsend, Rathfarnham, Clontarf, Drumcondra, Ranelagh, Raheny, Dundrum, etc - you don't exist anymore.

SpaceTime

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

I notice also that An Post have started removing suburb names from Dublin addresses - it now goes

Number, Street/Road name
Dublin X


So bye bye, Ringsend, Rathfarnham, Clontarf, Drumcondra, Ranelagh, Raheny, Dundrum, etc - you don't exist anymore.

They didn't remove / add anything! You can use or not use them.

Carawaystick

JacquesSon wrote: »

Is there a grid system where you can work out where an address is from the code. if you're a complete dumbass who doesn't know where Milltown is for example?

You can't.

You need to specify which Milltown

Trouwe Ier

Sam Russell wrote: »

Just as illogical as supporting a county hurling team just because you were born there and live all your life there when An Post thinks you live somewhere else entirely!

No!

The "Postal Town" identifier is what the Post Office uses to route your mail efficiently. Failure to use it can/could in the past sometimes cause a 24 hour delay. It has been thus for decades. The receipt of the 2.2 million letters showing addresses in this format caused a lot of angst for some people and was a Godsend for journalists in the middle of the silly season.

Eircode should have explained this a bit better prior to launch or rephrased their letters.


South of the border, I've only ever lived in Limerick but many people I know never had a problem with using ".....Clonlara, Limerick" or ".....Newport, Limerick".

There are similar issues in the North with its cluster coding for example "Jonesborough NEWRY Co. Down".

Although not exactly comparing like-with-like, the same rationale applied when STD codes were being assigned. I've no recollection of anyone ever getting upset about South Wexford and South Kilkenny having the Waterford "051" STD code, South Roscommon having "0902". The "061" code includes parts of Cos. Clare, Galway and Tipperary as well as the two Limericks: big deal!

It's not just the "P and T": the District Court Areas, Church Dioceses, ESB Networks Areas, OPW, some Dáil constituencies, Garda Divisions etc all have boundaries that suit operational requirements though the latter organisation is streamlining theirs to take account of local government policing committees.

County and City boundaries are operationally relevant for local government, GAA and statistical analysis but not necessarily for everything else.

That is not to devalue the concept of a sense of identity with one's city or county.

The least worst option might be to recommend use of the shortest possible address with a correct Eircode i.e.

Mr. J. Bloggs
42 Any Street
SHANNON
V14 GLSB

That way, the item avoids being delayed in Ennis and nobody has to grit their teeth or break their nib over use of the "L" word!

TheBustedFlush

Trouwe Ier wrote: »

No!

The "Postal Town" identifier is what the Post Office uses to route your mail efficiently. Failure to use it can/could in the past sometimes cause a 24 hour delay. It has been thus for decades. The receipt of the 2.2 million letters showing addresses in this format caused a lot of angst for some people and was a Godsend for journalists in the middle of the silly season.

Eircode should have explained this a bit better prior to launch or rephrased their letters.


South of the border, I've only ever lived in Limerick but many people I know never had a problem with using ".....Clonlara, Limerick" or ".....Newport, Limerick".

There are similar issues in the North with its cluster coding for example "Jonesborough NEWRY Co. Down".

Although not exactly comparing like-with-like, the same rationale applied when STD codes were being assigned. I've no recollection of anyone ever getting upset about South Wexford and South Kilkenny having the Waterford "051" STD code, South Roscommon having "0902". The "061" code includes parts of Cos. Clare, Galway and Tipperary as well as the two Limericks: big deal!

It's not just the "P and T": the District Court Areas, Church Dioceses, ESB Networks Areas, OPW, some Dáil constituencies, Garda Divisions etc all have boundaries that suit operational requirements though the latter organisation is streamlining theirs to take account of local government policing committees.

County and City boundaries are operationally relevant for local government, GAA and statistical analysis but not necessarily for everything else.

That is not to devalue the concept of a sense of identity with one's city or county.

The least worst option might be to recommend use of the shortest possible address with a correct Eircode i.e.

Mr. J. Bloggs
42 Any Street
SHANNON
V14 GLSB

That way, the item avoids being delayed in Ennis and nobody has to grit their teeth or break their nib over use of the "L" word!

So what form of an address should people use in everyday life? One that refers geographically to where they live, or one that refers to a place from which their mail is delivered?

I've no problem in An Post having a database that is compiled according to their mailing and routing structures. But why is that compilation being imposed/offered as the national address database to offer to businesses to license, since nobody outside of An Post uses it - as far as I can see?

ukoda

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

So what form of an address should people use in everyday life? One that refers geographically to where they live, or one that refers to a place from which their mail is delivered?

I've no problem in An Post having a database that is compiled according to their mailing and routing structures. But why is that compilation being imposed/offered as the national address database to offer to businesses to license, since nobody outside of An Post uses it - as far as I can see?

Well isn't the beauty of it that you can use any variation of your address you like with your eircode on the end and An Post know the correct postal address from the routing key and database?

Most companies take addresses from customers to post them stuff (bills, quotes etc) so why wouldn't they want the address that routes the letter via the correct An Post office for fastest delivery?

Trouwe Ier

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

So what form of an address should people use in everyday life? One that refers geographically to where they live, or one that refers to a place from which their mail is delivered?

I've no problem in An Post having a database that is compiled according to their mailing and routing structures. But why is that compilation being imposed/offered as the national address database to offer to businesses to license, since nobody outside of An Post uses it - as far as I can see?

I don't know but from my own technical background, brevity is bliss.

There was a golden opportunity to "address" this issue when the letters were being drafted. A guidance note would have been nice.

With my proposal, you can say you live in Shannon, which is factually and postally correct. Most people know that is in Co. Clare. Obviously, if you live in either Bottomstown, most people won't know that they are in Co. Limerick and there will need to be a postal town stipulated.

Ditto for places called "Derrymore", "Carrick" etc as these are very common place names in many counties.

Sam Russell

But why reduce the number of 'post towns' to a subset of 139? I believe there are about 2,000 of them. It would have been better if they could have used a lot more of them such that these anomalies were reduced.

Some of the routing code areas are non-contiguous, split by another code. And why the secrecy? Could they not have published the routing key maps beforehand, or even on launch?

TheBustedFlush

ukoda wrote: »

Well isn't the beauty of it that you can use any variation of your address you like with your eircode on the end and An Post know the correct postal address from the routing key and database?

Most companies take addresses from customers to post them stuff (bills, quotes etc) so why wouldn't they want the address that routes the letter via the correct An Post office for fastest delivery?

Because you're living in an An Post world. Many companies take addresses from customers to post/deliver them stuff using companies other than An Post to do so. So why would they want an address that no other delivery company uses except An Post?

Enforcing/imposing an An Post routing structure and address database smacks of anything but a deregulated postal marketplace.