National Postcodes to be introduced

Trouwe Ier

Sam Russell wrote: »

But why reduce the number of 'post towns' to a subset of 139? I believe there are about 2,000 of them. It would have been better if they could have used a lot more of them such that these anomalies were reduced.

Some of the routing code areas are non-contiguous, split by another code. And why the secrecy? Could they not have published the routing key maps beforehand, or even on launch?

I agree 100%: I am in what I think is a type of Lough Derg-shaped "V94" which must be one of the most populous and sizeable RK areas.

ukoda

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

Because you're living in an An Post world. Most companies take addresses from customers to post/deliver them stuff using companies other than An Post to do so. So why would they want an address that no other delivery company uses except An Post?

No An Post are biggest delivery company of packages in Ireland, so in theory they deliver the most letters and the highest proportion of packages, so no most companies don't take an address to give to other delivery companies, most take it for An Post deliveries.

Other companies have the geo coodridantes from the database, which is enough to plans routes efficiently, ignoring the postal address for the most part.

Sam Russell

ukoda wrote: »

No An Post are biggest delivery company of packages in Ireland.

And that is the way they want it to stay.

TheBustedFlush

ukoda wrote: »

No An Post are biggest delivery company of packages in Ireland, so in theory they deliver the most letters and the highest proportion of packages, so no most companies don't take an address to give to other delivery companies, most take it for An Post deliveries.

Other companies have the geo coodridantes from the database, which is enough to plans routes efficiently, ignoring the postal address for the most part.

And An Post will continue to be the biggest delivery company as long as that thinking is pursued. So much for deregulation then.

An Post gets a full address that suits their needs, and the rest can use coordinates - doesn't matter about them.

Or the hundreds of other organisations/sectors that might want to have a location's geographical address, rather than a useless (for their purposes) postal one.

oscarBravo

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

Or the hundreds of other organisations/sectors that might want to have a location's geographical address, rather than a useless (for their purposes) postal one.

How is "Bellahy, Co. Sligo" more useful for delivery purposes than "Bellahy, Charlestown, Co. Mayo"?

ukoda

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

And An Post will continue to be the biggest delivery company as long as that thinking is pursued. So much for deregulation then.

An Post gets a full address that suits their needs, and the rest can use coordinates - doesn't matter about them.

Or the hundreds of other organisations/sectors that might want to have a location's geographical address, rather than a useless (for their purposes) postal one.

But anyone can have the geographic location of the property from the eircode?

It's actually much easier to deregulate now that we have 100% unique addressing and a postcode for each dwelling? Before this, no one could compete with An Posts local knowledge, now they can

TheBustedFlush

oscarBravo wrote: »

How is "Bellahy, Co. Sligo" more useful for delivery purposes than "Bellahy, Charlestown, Co. Mayo"?

I'd know I'm going to Sligo rather than Mayo for a start.

It might be a tourist, a business meeting, etc, etc.

Or I want to collate all addresses in a particular country for some purpose.

Or I might be the CSO collating data of Energy ratings by county, and have to add the rider that all statistics might be flawed somewhat since the counties for dwellings are not actuallly the counties that the dwellings are in.

oscarBravo

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

I'd know I'm going to Sligo rather than Mayo for a start.

It might be a tourist, a business meeting, etc, etc.

Or I want to collate all addresses in a particular country for some purpose.

Or I might be the CSO collating data of Energy ratings by county, and have to add the rider that all statistics might be flawed somewhat since the counties for dwellings are not actuallly the counties that the dwellings are in.

OK.

"...for delivery purposes..."

...?

TheBustedFlush

ukoda wrote: »

But anyone can have the geographic location of the property from the eircode?

It's actually much easier to deregulate now that we have 100% unique addressing and a postcode for each dwelling? Before this, no one could compete with An Posts local knowledge, now they can

Really? What's the geographic location of K67 R256? No looking it up now....

oscarBravo

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

No looking it up now....

Why not?

ukoda

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

Really? What's the geographic location of K67 R256? No looking it up now....

Why wouldn't I look it up?

TheBustedFlush

oscarBravo wrote: »

OK.

"...for delivery purposes..."

...?

Well you instanced my quote of the hundreds of other businesses/sectors that might want to have a useful address, so I was responding to that.

In delivery terms, a company that perhaps sorts its deliveries by county or combination of counties into delivery regions. I know of one in the west of Ireland that does about 120,000 deliveries a year - and as they told me in exasperation last week - the address database currently online is **** all use to them since a lot of their deliveries are to rural addresses. I don't know if the address databases that eircode are going to license are going to be any better than, perhaps they will.

TheBustedFlush

ukoda wrote: »

Why wouldn't I look it up?

Ok you can then.

astrofool

Irish Steve wrote: »

I've been watching the antics for a number of days, and the question that hasn't been asked in relation to GPS systems is quite simple.

For a GPS to be able to navigate to a location based on Eircode, EVERY code will have to appear in the data that is held on the device, as the fundamental requirement is that the GPS operates without any data connection to a mobile phone network or similar. Yes, smartphones can communicate with mobile networks, but the serious limitation there is that roaming mobile data costs an arm and a leg, to the extent that most users will not use roaming data, and that won't change any time soon, and for a dedicated GPS Sat nav, there is NO capability to use external data services, so the data has to be within the device

I'd imagine the data design for most Sat nav's will already have a postcode field for every address, that just happens to sit empty for Irish addresses, the extra space requirements would be minimal, but it would need an update, as every change to mapping requires.

GJG

Irish Steve wrote: »

I've been watching the antics for a number of days, and the question that hasn't been asked in relation to GPS systems is quite simple.

For a GPS to be able to navigate to a location based on Eircode, EVERY code will have to appear in the data that is held on the device, as the fundamental requirement is that the GPS operates without any data connection to a mobile phone network or similar. Yes, smartphones can communicate with mobile networks, but the serious limitation there is that roaming mobile data costs an arm and a leg, to the extent that most users will not use roaming data, and that won't change any time soon, and for a dedicated GPS Sat nav, there is NO capability to use external data services, so the data has to be within the device

So, based on the information from EIrcode's site, apparently, there are 2.2 Million address codes for the country, and each code is 9 characters, and to be capable of navigating to the code location, there then has to be some form of Lat Long associated with each Eircode, so that's going to need somewhere in the region of 27 characters per code, so if we then work on 2.2 Million locations, the database for that is going to require 2.2 Million x 27, which is over 60 Mb of data storage...

Any GPS that currently works in Ireland already has a database of Irish addresses in it. The addition of Eircodes and matching coordinates consumes less than 20MB, as documented here, the equivalent of half-a-dozen photos on typical smartphone. All the calculations are laid out for anyone who wants to examine them.

The fact that Lo8 cheerleaders have repeatedly claimed that the database will be more than 100 times larger than this - without offering any source or any calculations - does not lend them credibility.

plodder

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

Interesting exercise, if you put in the routing keys into Google on their own and see what comes up. Lots of businesses around the country promoting that they've added their Eircode to their address and providing it. Certainly positive signs for businesses adopting the code into their systems/websites.

Found this piece of analysis already done by CSO re BER ratings for "dwellings" sorted by eircode routing key. Total number of dwellings with an Eircode using 2011 census data is 2,003,914.

It's from a release issued by CSO earlier this month and contains specific data on counties and routing keys attached to them:


County
Main Eircode Routing Keys

Carlow
R21, R93, R95
Cavan
A81, A82, F91, H12, H14, H16
Clare
V14, V15, V94, V95
Cork City
T12, T23
Cork County
P12, P14, P17, P24, P25, P31, P32, P36, P43, P47, P51, P56, P61, P67, P72, P75, P81, P85, T12, T23, T34, T45, T56
Donegal
F91, F92, F93, F94
Dublin City
D01-D24 including D6W
Dublin County
A41, A42, A45, A94, A96, K32, K34, K36, K45, K56, K67, K78
Galway City
H91
Galway County
F42, F45, H53, H54, H62, H65, H71, H91
Kerry
P51, V23, V31, V92, V93
Kildare
A83, R14, R51, R56, W12, W23, W34, W91
Kilkenny
E32, E41, R95, X91
Laois
R14, R32, R93
Leitrim
F91, H12, N41
Limerick City
V94
Limerick County
P56, V35, V42, V94
Longford
N39
Louth
A91, A92
Mayo
F12, F23, F26, F28, F31, F35
Meath
A82, A83, A84, A85, A86, A92, C15, K32
Monaghan
A75, A81, H18, H23
Offaly
R32, R35, R42, R45
Roscommon
F42, F45, F52, N37, N39, N41
Sligo
F26, F52, F56, F91
Tipperary
E21, E25, E32, E34, E41, E45, E53, E91, V94
Waterford City
X91
Waterford County
P36, P51, X35, X42, X91
Westmeath
N37, N91
Wexford
Y21, Y25, Y34, Y35
Wicklow
A63, A67, A98, W91, Y14


Wonder how long it would take for a regular person sorting parcels/mail, etc to remember/recognise which county has which routing keys and vice versa?

And for local people to know the location/area of routing keys around them?

Cork City and and County only uses P and T in its routing keys.

Dublin D, A and K

Limerick City and County mainly V with a single P (presumably adjacent with a Cork key)

Sligo is only F.

However, here's the kicker from the CSO release - "The table contains a provisional listing of routing keys by county. The list is indicative only as it is not based on an analysis of the full Eircode database. Dwellings were assigned to an Eircode routing key based on their An Post principal postal town span of delivery rather than on the actual geographical location of the dwelling."

So the first letter isn't wholly indicative of a county since its geographical address may have been perverted by the postal town - and its county - being used as the address.

I can understand a postal town being included in the line of an address, but then deciding to change the county of the house location to the county of the post-town just seems mad as an official address database to issue to the public and to business to use. Surely this has to be changed?

This post and ukoda's last one illustrate the benefits of structure in a postcode. The thing is barely a wet week old, and people are already using its (limited) structure for :-
- advertising based on areas.
- statistical analysis
and neither of these things needed to license an innovation sapping database product. Think how much better it would have been if you could do searches in T12 at a lower level so it would only return hits that included in Mahon say, but not Passage West, which is a long car journey away.

And your observation above is correct, the routing key areas (being the only recognisable, open area in the code) will probably end up replacing the county as an area used in statistical analysis.

TheBustedFlush

plodder wrote: »

This post and ukoda's last one illustrate the benefits of structure in a postcode. The thing is barely a wet week old, and people are already using its (limited) structure for :-
- advertising based on areas.
- statistical analysis
and neither of these things needed to license an innovation sapping database product. Think how much better it would have been if you could do searches in T12 at a lower level so it would only return hits that included in Mahon say, but not Passage West, which is a long car journey away.

And your observation above is correct, the routing key areas (being the only recognisable, open area in the code) will probably end up replacing the county as an area used in statistical analysis.

I wasn't intending to make that observation. Simply that's what CSO are faced with currently.

From the shape of some of the routing keys posted online, I can't see how they could be used as a primary basis for ongoing statistical analysis - they may be an addition, but that's about it. The Small Areas are likely to continue to be the main dwelling polygon. The table above using the 2011 census date had keys with as low as 350 dwellings and as high as 75,000 - quite a range.

ukoda

I know this has been posted before and just recently above but I think people really need to read it

We had countless posters on here saying "eircode won't fit on a sat nav"

This link is an idependant analysis and confirms that all eircodes plus geo coordinates will take up about 18 MB of space, and the entire address database would take about 59 MB of space on a sat nav, making eircode compatible with every modern sat nav and easily fit on any smartphone for offline use.

Can people pls stop using the "you need a data connection for eircode to be any use" argument, excuse my language but it's complete ********

http://www.snoopdos.com/blog/how-big-is-the-eircode-database/

recedite

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

Or the hundreds of other organisations/sectors that might want to have a location's geographical address, rather than a useless (for their purposes) postal one.

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

I'd know I'm going to Sligo rather than Mayo for a start.

It might be a tourist, a business meeting, etc, etc.

Or I want to collate all addresses in a particular country for some purpose.

Or I might be the CSO collating data of Energy ratings by county, and have to add the rider that all statistics might be flawed somewhat since the counties for dwellings are not actuallly the counties that the dwellings are in.

These are serious flaws which stem from the decision by vested interests way back to use An Post's geodirectory as the basis for a national address database. It means that anytime in the future anyone wants to use an address for anything else, they will be forced to use the wrong address. Whereas before eircode, the wrong version (An Post version) of the address was confined to An Post, now it will be propagated much more widely.
There are householders now complaining that Eircode has "changed their address", or "have got their address wrong". But actually, eircode are only perpetuating the wrong address which already existed in geodirectory. That is, wrong in geographical fact, but right in terms of being the legal postal address as determined by the Comreg V An Post court case.

It could all have been sorted out at the start. All we needed was for the State to endorse one single location code system, and then to register one single location code per dwelling as the official location code for each property. The new State address database should have been based on geodirectory at start-up, but not tied to it. The enabling legislation should have made clear that the address as listed in the new address database would constitute the official legal address of the property.
In that way, an Post could continue to assign people to the wrong county for their own purposes, but others would not be obliged to follow suit.

This little issue now has all the makings of a legal loophole, which could in the future be exploited by somebody not wanting to pay their property tax water charges, or some other bill.

TheBustedFlush

ukoda wrote: »

I know this has been posted before and just recently above but I think people really need to read it

We had countless posters on here saying "eircode won't fit on a sat nav"

This link is an idependant analysis and confirms that all eircodes plus geo coordinates will take up about 18 MB of space, and the entire address database would take about 59 MB of space on a sat nav, making eircode compatible with every modern sat nav and easily fit on any smartphone for offline use.

Can people pls stop using the "you need a data connection for eircode to be any use" argument, excuse my language but it's complete ********

http://www.snoopdos.com/blog/how-big-is-the-eircode-database/

Absolutely excellent piece of analysis - superbly written and brilliantly illustrated. Eircode should hire this person immediately to conduct all their communications to the public, business, politicians, state agencies, mapping companies, and GPS consultants.

Edit: and of course, the esteemed members on this discussion thread......

oscarBravo

recedite wrote: »

It means that anytime in the future anyone wants to use an address for anything else, they will be forced to use the wrong address.

Jesus wept. Seriously? SERIOUSLY?

What part of YOU DON'T HAVE TO CHANGE ANYTHING WHATSOEVER ABOUT YOUR ADDRESS is so insanely complicated that you haven't managed to wrap your head around it yet?

bluesteel

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

Absolutely excellent piece of analysis - superbly written and brilliantly illustrated. Eircode should hire this person immediately to conduct all their communications to the public, business, politicians, state agencies, mapping companies, and GPS consultants.

Edit: and of course, the esteemed members on this discussion thread......

I fear the PR battle is long lost. Idiots such as GetLostEircodes and Brian Lucey have poisoned the well :mad:

look at the comments on this article - I know it's the Journal but still
http://www.thejournal.ie/eircode-front-and-back-2231831-Jul2015/

Carawaystick

GJG wrote: »

Any GPS that currently works in Ireland already has a database of Irish addresses in it.

This statement is not true. There are many GPS units that only report position, The "P" in gps.

It might be true for satnavs, but they are different things. Mobile phones, Bike speedometers, standalone gps receivers will not have a database of Irish addresses in them.

Nermal

recedite wrote: »

The enabling legislation should have made clear that the address as listed in the new address database would constitute the official legal address of the property.

Why on earth would you need an 'official legal address' for a property? It would just result in pointless argument. One of the benefits of Eircodes is bypassing this.

moyners

Some articles about Eircode i spotted today, written by businesses. Interesting to see they mention some UK companies already planning to implement Eircode.

http://www.ticketsolve.com/news-events/eircode-irelands-new-postal-code-system/?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=blog&utm_term=eircode&utm_content=eircode%20announcement&utm_campaign=eircode%20annoucement

http://www.hcs.ie/will-eircode-benefit-your-business?utm_content=buffer4b311&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Bray Head

In most countries in the developed world you are not entitled to a personal version of your own address (which is exactly the way it should be).

Now we have a system which is both unique and provides near-total coverage. I suspect that in due course eircodes will come to be accepted as official addresses for legal reasons.

This may come from a court case down the line or a legislative change at some point.

It will allow those who wish to use a personal version of their address to continue to do so.

OU812

Just out of interest, With all the fuss Loc8, GetLostEircode (who I suspect are one & the same) etc have been kicking up about places that do not receive post having an eircode, is there anything at all stopping eircode (or someone else) in the future adding another layer of codes to identify them?

something that would have the routing key giving the area and then a customised code so that (for example) Glendalough would be "A98 T001": (the T standing for Tourist the number for the numbered attraction). One of the buildings there is already A98 PY00, which if I was going there, I'd enter as the closest point, but with an additional layer the physical attraction would have one too.

The Martello Tower in Bray is A98 K838, so the Carpark there could be A98 CP01 etc

Disclaimer: this makes sense in my head, but I had a very distracting day & very little sleep last night so I may be talking out of my arse

a65b2cd

plodder wrote: »

the routing key areas (being the only recognisable, open area in the code) will probably end up replacing the county as an area used in statistical analysis.

I agree there is potential here for easily captured statistics e.g. hotel and restaurant federations etc. could ask their members to record the routing key of their guests to see their catchment areas. It should be possible to do that using very basic IT software and if another businesses did it then the comparisons across industries become more useful. Tourist organisations could follow suit.

Trouwe Ier

OU812 wrote: »

Just out of interest, With all the fuss Loc8, GetLostEircode (who I suspect are one & the same) etc have been kicking up about places that do not receive post having an eircode, is there anything at all stopping eircode (or someone else) in the future adding another layer of codes to identify them?

something that would have the routing key giving the area and then a customised code so that (for example) Glendalough would be "A98 T001": (the T standing for Tourist the number for the numbered attraction). One of the buildings there is already A98 PY00, which if I was going there, I'd enter as the closest point, but with an additional layer the physical attraction would have one too.

The Martello Tower in Bray is A98 K838, so the Carpark there could be A98 CP01 etc

Disclaimer: this makes sense in my head, but I had a very distracting day & very little sleep last night so I may be talking out of my arse

It makes perfect sense to me too but I don't sleep well on humid nights either. Hopefully they will see the light!

I have a Garmin Oregon 550T handheld GPS unit. It has a complete list of Irish and UK addresses, the latter with both the "inward" and "outward" component of the relevant post codes. It doesn't need internet connectivity. I have the option of updating the map and address data either on a pay-as-you-update basis or by getting a lifetime update subscription. I update by connecting it to my laptop and logging on to their website.

Given that each individual UK post code covers c. 12-20 unique addressees, that each Irish (Republic) one covers one address and that there are perhaps fourteen times as many addresses in the U.K., it is reasonable to assume that there are in the region of 2 - 2.5 million post codes in the U.K. so if my little hand-held device can store all of the U.K. ones, it should manage the Irish ones albeit with a bit of pressure on its electronic space.

Just looking at some of the Get-Lost-Eircode and loc8 tweets makes me wonder how people can be so bitter and how other twitter uses can simply retweet what are for the most part, demented rants!

marmurr1916

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

Really? What's the geographic location of K67 R256? No looking it up now....

What's the geographic location of BT56 8QN? No looking it up now....