National Postcodes to be introduced

FishOnABike

moyners wrote: »

I should just point out also that the project is academic and I definitely couldn't afford €5k to buy an eircode ECAD!

ukoda wrote: »

That €5k figure was banded around as incorrect info by eircode detractors

Have a look at the eircode pricing guide on their website to see what the cost of the product you'd need would actually cost you

And how much would it cost if the post code was based on an open geo-code ?

Eircode , as it is designed, is an unnecessary cost on academia and businesses.

ukoda

FishOnABike wrote: »

And how much would it cost if the post code was based on an open geo-code ?

Eircode , as it is designed, is an unnecessary cost on academia and businesses.

I don't know, do you? Let me think....

It cost 2 million to design loc8, same as eircode.
Then you have the exact same costs that eircode have incurred, need to get it appended to government databases and disseminated

So I'd say about €27 million

But now it's open source, hmmm so who pays for the on going maintenance costs? Cos there will be costs.

Oh yeah me and you as taxpayers, a continuous expense on the government coffers with no way of recovering the costs because it can't be commercialised

moyners

ukoda wrote: »

That €5k figure was banded around as incorrect info by eircode detractors

Have a look at the eircode pricing guide on their website to see what the cost of the product you'd need would actually cost you

From what I can see (it's not very clear at all) the minimum for one person who needs the centroid coordinates would be €560 - I can't work out if they want more per transaction afterwards, but that's way way more than I would be willing to pay.

FishOnABike wrote: »

Eircode , as it is designed, is an unnecessary cost on academia and businesses.

Can't comment on the cost to business but I don't see one mention of academic usage of the database anywhere in their pricing structure. Hopefully they might come up with a custom data set that they can provide to researchers.

ukoda wrote: »

I don't know, do you? Let me think....

It cost 2 million to set up loc8, same as eircode.
Then you have the exact same costs that eircode have encurred, need to get it appended to government databases and disseminated

So I'd say about €27 million

But now it's open source, hmmm so who pays for the on going maintenance costs? Cos there will be costs.

Oh yeah me and you as taxpayers, a continuous expense on the government coffers with no way of recovering the costs because it can't be commercialised

I take your point here, I find it annoying when I see it repeated over and over on twitter that the government could have done it for free.

Fingers crossed for google maps support!

FishOnABike

ukoda wrote: »

I don't know, do you? Let me think....

It cost 2 million to design loc8, same as eircode.
Then you have the exact same costs that eircode have incurred, need to get it appended to government databases and disseminated

So I'd say about €27 million

But now it's open source, hmmm so who pays for the on going maintenance costs? Cos there will be costs.

Oh yeah me and you as taxpayers, a continuous expense on the government coffers with no way of recovering the costs because it can't be commercialised

Royal mail manage to commercialise their address + post code information despite the full UK mainland post code to coordinate information (code-point open) being available to download and use for free.

ECAF and ECAD would still be useful e.g. for online retailers to auto populate an address from its post code to make filling in order forms quicker, so there would be commercial customers for geodirectory/postcode information. Current An Post geodirectory users would continue to buy and use the information.

Who currently pays for the ongoing maintenance costs of the geodirectory? The incremental cost of an additional 8 characher field to the existing geodirectory would be small ( in or around 20MB extra data by some calculations).

Bayberry

oscarBravo wrote: »

If your starting point for the design of a postal system is that it should actively work against the interests of the universal service provider for postal delivery, we'll agree to differ.

Again with the assertions! I said that one of the stated purposes of developing a post code system in the first place was to improve open-market competition. If you see that as "actively working against the interests of the universal service provider for postal delivery", then fine, state that you're opposed to a competitive market in that arena.

Maybe when you said "An Post would have vetoed it" you didn't actually mean "Eircode was deliberately crippled to keep An Post happy" but that seems to be the obvious interpretation. It just seems an odd thing for a supporter of eircode to admit to.

And that's leaving aside the other problem with a geocode: if you want to use it to group and sort deliveries, you have to convert it to a latitude and longitude and then feed that information into a route optimisation system of some kind. There seems to be a vague belief that if you recursively divide the country into a grid of squares, then you can use those squares for sorting and sequencing of deliveries without reference to a road map.

So the geocode gets converted to a lat/long and fed into a further processing step. If only - oh, if only - there was some way to do that with Eircodes.

There's one very simple difference between a route optimization system based on an algorithmic geocode and eircode. You don't have to pay a transaction fee for every lookup with an algorithmic system.

But of course there are lots of things that you can do with a location code that don't involve route optimization. And there are even examples of "route optimization" that don't require the hardware and software investment required to do anything with eircode.

Bayberry

ukoda wrote: »

Do you not see ericode is here now and it won't be going anywhere

Do you not see now that, as we're stuck with it anyway, you can stop pretending that it's the most wonderful thing in the world, and admit that maybe, just possibly, there are aspects of eircode that are less than perfect?

You don't need to defend it any more - admit that it's better than nothing, sometimes, but that it could have been better, in certain circumstances.

ukoda

FishOnABike wrote: »

Royal mail manage to commercialise their address + post code information despite the full UK mainland post code to coordinate information (code-point open) being available to download and use for free.

ECAF and ECAD would still be useful e.g. for online retailers to auto populate an address from its post code to make filling in order forms quicker, so there would be commercial customers for geodirectory/postcode information. Current An Post geodirectory users would continue to buy and use the information.

Who currently pays for the ongoing maintenance costs of the geodirectory? The incremental cost of an additional 8 characher field to the existing geodirectory would be small ( in or around 20MB extra data by some calculations).

Geodirectory is a revenue stream, companies pay for it, now they will pay for ECAD

BarryD

SpaceTime wrote: »

Because there's an individual house name on each envelope, and because of the sheer volume of mail (it's an urban route) the postman gets confused.

I don't see how having a non-sequential code on the end of each letter will make anything any better than house names (which we already have).

...

I don't think it's actually fair to even blame the postman. It's just a stupid and very broken system caused by decades of nobody taking charge of addressing.

Your problem is not the lack of house numbering or codes - it's just human error at the postman/ woman level. And/or a problem that you should take up with your neighbours. Do you all have house names properly displayed on your gates - sounds very odd for an urban environment but that's what you say? If you or some of your neighbours don't have clear labeling, you can hardly complain if the postal worker makes the odd mistake.

If you want house numbers, why don't you approach Cork CoCo? I think but stand to be corrected that local authorities assign these numbers, not An Post.

Your idea would not translate to rural areas and nor is there any need to attempt it. We don't want a system like NI where scattered houses along rural roads have numbers like 309 Ballymore Road etc. We live in a rural area and the post gets here unfailingly, regular postman or otherwise. And without Eircodes or Loc8 codes or whatever else you're having.

ukoda

Bayberry wrote: »

Do you not see now that, as we're stuck with it anyway, you can stop pretending that it's the most wonderful thing in the world, and admit that maybe, just possibly, there are aspects of eircode that are less than perfect?

You don't need to defend it any more - admit that it's better than nothing, sometimes, but that it could have been better, in certain circumstances.

I never said it was perfect, in fact I said it's pretty much impossible to create a perfect postcode, someone has to lose out when there are conflicting interests and requirements. I think the ericode solution is the broadest ranging solution, suitable for the biggest coverage of requirements.

I won't change that opinion, no matter how many times you ask me to.

Trouwe Ier

BarryD wrote: »

We don't want a system like NI where scattered houses along rural roads have numbers like 309 Ballymore Road etc. We live in a rural area and the post gets here unfailingly, regular postman or otherwise. And without Eircodes or Loc8 codes or whatever else you're having.

You may not want it but you live there and know the locality like the back of your hand.

How about the delivery van, ambulance paramedics, police car, plumber etc?

Bayberry

ukoda wrote: »

I think the ericode solution is the broadest ranging solution, suitable for the biggest coverage of requirements.

I find that an absolutely staggering statement.

ukoda

Bayberry wrote: »

I find that an absolutely staggering statement.

You're entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to mine. Again, just so I'm clear, I won't change my mind no matter what you say.

BarryD

Trouwe Ier wrote: »

How about the delivery van, ambulance paramedics, police car, plumber etc?

Never had a problem to date, the odd delivery van doesn't want to go out of their way but that's hardly going to change with Eircodes etc.

This is all about the very last line on the letter from Eircode. Under 'Eircode Benefits', it says

- facilitate better planning and delivery of public services.

Read into that what you will but I'd hazard a proposal that it's little to do with delivery vans or ambulances

Nermal

oscarBravo wrote: »

I strongly sympathise with the desire to have properly-numbered houses on properly-named streets. In Denmark, every road has a name - even rural roads - and every house has a number, and every house has a postal service-approved mailbox at a postal service-approved external location, and every mailbox has the names of the mail recipients, and if any of these things are not the case, the mail just doesn't get delivered, end of.

But this isn't Denmark, and we're not Danish.

In Denmark, people pay for water. They don't cross the street until there's a green man at the signal. They write to the government when they move home, and the government in turn tells the utility companies what their new address is, and informs them who their new GP will be, and which school their children will be attending.

Why do we keep getting Irish solutions? Because we keep creating Irish problems.

I like Eircode, but I love this post.

oscarBravo

oscarBravo wrote: »

I strongly sympathise with the desire to have properly-numbered houses on properly-named streets. In Denmark, every road has a name - even rural roads - and every house has a number, and every house has a postal service-approved mailbox at a postal service-approved external location, and every mailbox has the names of the mail recipients, and if any of these things are not the case, the mail just doesn't get delivered, end of.

But this isn't Denmark, and we're not Danish.

In Denmark, people pay for water. They don't cross the street until there's a green man at the signal. They write to the government when they move home, and the government in turn tells the utility companies what their new address is, and informs them who their new GP will be, and which school their children will be attending.

Why do we keep getting Irish solutions? Because we keep creating Irish problems.

The citizens of some EU countries are so "institutionalized" that they often need to ring the "authorities" to ask for help in filling out a simple form!

Even in Ireland I find that I have seen the inside of a Garda station far more often that I would have ever seen the inside of a police station in the UK due to the requirements for "Garda clearance" for routine duties.

Anyway wtf does this have to do with Irish postcodes????

moyners

Saw this on twitter about the database being released commercially:

https://twitter.com/Gamma_irl/status/627092504026988548

SpaceTime

BarryD wrote: »

Your problem is not the lack of house numbering or codes - it's just human error at the postman/ woman level. And/or a problem that you should take up with your neighbours. Do you all have house names properly displayed on your gates - sounds very odd for an urban environment but that's what you say? If you or some of your neighbours don't have clear labeling, you can hardly complain if the postal worker makes the odd mistake.

If you want house numbers, why don't you approach Cork CoCo? I think but stand to be corrected that local authorities assign these numbers, not An Post.

Your idea would not translate to rural areas and nor is there any need to attempt it. We don't want a system like NI where scattered houses along rural roads have numbers like 309 Ballymore Road etc. We live in a rural area and the post gets here unfailingly, regular postman or otherwise. And without Eircodes or Loc8 codes or whatever else you're having.

A huge % of older suburban Cork City areas aren't numbered.

I raised it with a local councillor and got fobbed off and told the City Council had nothing to do with addresses.

In this area, about 50% of the houses don't bother displaying their house names and where numbers exist they're not being displayed either.

Three residents tried setting up a residents' association and were literally told to butt out and mind our own business and that people didn't want to be having annoying things like residents' associations.

The Gardai tried to encourage neighbourhood watch setup and after 1 meeting there was a huge blow up because they wanted us to meet in a less snobby area. The result was the whole association was disbanded.

We even got a nasty letter asking us who we thought we were attempting to represent the views of the whole district!

I don't meet my neighbours, other than the immediate next door neighbours as there is no context to meet them. It's close to the city centre so, there's no common activity everyone engages in. We don't all shop in the same shops, go to same schools, work in same areas. There's also no communal spaces or anything like that.

People just drive to and from their houses and there's really very little interaction.

Items go missing into wrong houses because many of neighbours simply won't call down to redeliver them.

I had my credit card suspended by BOI because two letters were misdelivered and has been sent back with "unknown at this address return to sender" by a friendly neighbour even though my house name was on the outside!

The bank assumed I'd provided them with a false address and I had a major issue bringing in ID to unsuspend my card.

Where it goes horrifically wrong is if there's any change of postman due to holidays or illness.

I get items through the letterbox with the same surname for houses 1km and 50+ homes away. I get items with just the same street and someone's name.

I actually can't redeliver many of them myself as I don't know the person's name and I've no way of finding their displayed house name. So, all I can do is put it back into the mailbox with "correctly addressed but delivered to wrong house".

I did a rough count on Google Maps. It's about 3km of streets and there would be about 280 homes none of which are numbered.

Without sequential numbers, my addressing issues remain unresolved. Eircode will be handy for avoiding courier directing (although most can actually find my house already on Google maps by using the house name).

My only issues is postal mix ups at local level.

dr.fuzzenstein

oscarBravo wrote: »

I strongly sympathise with the desire to have properly-numbered houses on properly-named streets. In Denmark, every road has a name - even rural roads - and every house has a number, and every house has a postal service-approved mailbox at a postal service-approved external location, and every mailbox has the names of the mail recipients, and if any of these things are not the case, the mail just doesn't get delivered, end of.

But this isn't Denmark, and we're not Danish.

In Denmark, people pay for water. They don't cross the street until there's a green man at the signal. They write to the government when they move home, and the government in turn tells the utility companies what their new address is, and informs them who their new GP will be, and which school their children will be attending.

Why do we keep getting Irish solutions? Because we keep creating Irish problems.

Thank you! I agree with this so much it hurts!
Just reading back over this thread will explain exactly why we have (and need) Eircodes and why less granular postcodes will work everywhere else in Europe.
In germany, the postcode usually refers to a town and surrounding areas or districts of a city. Say you are looking for:
Hans Beispiel
Grubenschnitzerstrasse 27
75394 Grubenschnitzen

The postcode will demark the Bundesland (first digit) and the rest the town. Once you are at the town, you will look for the (clearly marked) streetsign and the (clearly marked) housenumber and name on the letterbox. If there is several apaprtments, there will be names on all the letterboxes, numbers (clearly marked) and a (working) intercom.
In ireland you are looking for
Sean O'Something
Caher
Some Town
Co whatever
There is no streetname, no housenumber, no name on the houses and to top it all off, there are about 2-3 different Caher or Inch or any other generic name in the same address range.
My address can easily be confused with 2-3 other locations across my county and it has. Every week I have to send completely lost delivery people or services clear across the country.
Now, this is Ireland, so we like it that way. So if any suggestion is made to bring order to this chaos, the response is "Boo! None a' your business where I live! Sticking it to the man! I don't want people knowing my business! rabble rabble rabble!" followed by protests.
Oh yes, the Irish are such rebels and freemen! "Look at me, I'm standing up to authority!"
What does that get us?! And when the ham-heads outnumber clear-thinking, level-headed people? Then we will vote in some other ham-heads like Sinn Fein and Paul Murphy, because "rabble rabble! Authority! Sticking it to the man!". If that ever happens, the Greek people will look at Ireland and say "Oh dear Lord, at least we're not as bad as those poor bastards"
If people like chaos and disorder, well, they should move to Syria, Libya or some areas of Iraq.
The Irish attitude to an ordered society is incomprehensible to me. What are you trying to prove? You got rid of the Brits, so this whole scratching away at authority business, you're just doing it to yourself, you are costing YOURSELF money! Same with Irish water. Setting up a utility company in any country of the world is somewhere in page 35 of the local rag. Then people don't pay and scream hysterically that it was a failure. Yes, because of YOU!
You Irish certainly love to kick yourself in the shin. And then scream about it and wonder why nothing works right and who the hell keeps kicking you in the shin.
I do blame the Brits. Subverting authority, confusing the enemy, deliberately perverting rules and obeying orders in such a way as to make the whole thing pointless was a necessary survival strategy for 700 years, but that stuff is over! The Irish are only fighting themselves now. Even the Romans had one look at this country and decided "too cold, too dark, too savage".
I do have a love/hate relationship with Ireland, I like my place in the middle of nowhere, I wish I could just ignore what's going on, but the old saying is true "Not having an interest in politics doesn't mean politics might not suddenly develop an interest in you"
Now forgive my rant, yes it is personal, no I can't help being a German, yes I know I should fcuk off back home if I don't like it, but maybe, just maybe people here will realise that infighting and bickering is not always the best way.
In Germany we are used to having as many systems as we have kinds of Wurst, but that's the beauty of it. In Ireland it has to be "Only One Can Be Right!" and then fight who that is. In Germany it's whatever floats your boat.

edit:
Off topic rant alert. You may need a lot of salt for this, more than a pinch anyway. yes I know, I'm still getting used to this place.

SpaceTime

To be honest, it's not Germany vs Ireland.
Almost every other country I can think of, including ones that are far more similar to Ireland in language and culture than Germany, have proper addressing systems.

Ireland can and does come up with logical, sensible systems too. Telephone numbering being a prime example : it's one of the most logical, human friendly and hierarchical systems I've ever used. The same goes got the car reg system.

The common denominator here in the chaos is actually the local authorities. They've never been what I would call competent when it comes to creating and maintaining systems.

Addressing is symptomatic of lack of planning and generally a level of chaos in how we've dealt with anything to do with the built environment.

An Post has simply been way too accommodating and placidly continues to persist with solving cryptic poetry known as addresses.

In most other countries, including the U.S. The post office would simply abandon you if you'd no logical address.

The postal service here is basically accepting chaotic addressing with is ultimately reflected in high costs of delivery.

Eircode to me looks like a crude attempt to bypass the chaos with a code. It does nothing to clean up the addressing problems. It's just a parallel system.

Chaos = inefficiency = higher costs.

Ok, 70 cent for a stamp for letters you rarely post isn't that big a deal but it's adding up in costs to companies, high prices of delivery of packages etc

I have experience with small internet businesses here and anything that involves posting items immediately puts you at a major disadvantage to locate distribution in Ireland.

Even to get your business off the ground only dealing with Irish customers, your costs are way higher than other comparable countries.

recedite

moyners wrote: »

This is true, the main reason it's useful is because the geodirectory has the coordinates and whereas when I was doing this before I had the geodirectory website open in one window and google maps in the other trying to match up the exact location, the workaround the previous poster mentioned lets me do that more quickly.

If there was a directory of addresses mapped to Loc8 codes it would probably do the same thing. Although, this morning I did notice that when looking for one business' address they had a Loc8 code on their website - so off I went to Loc8 to get the coordinates. I couldn't - it would plot it on their embedded google maps api on the loc8 website but I had to open another instance of google maps and match the location to get the coordinates I needed.

Just to keep things neutral

I get your point that you could not get the raw GPS co-ordinates directly from the Loc8 website, any more than you could get them directly from the eircode website.
But this is because both of these are acting as proprietary commercial enterprises. Not as a public service, in the way that the UK postcodes are. The UK postcodes and databases are made freely available. Loc8 does not release its algorithm, and eircode does not release its database for free.

If loc8 had been adopted by the State as the official national system, the algorithm could have been released and made freely available because the maintenance costs of that system are minimal.
The other advantage would have been that ordinary people would instantly have recognised and understood any other location codes that did not relate to houses/letterboxes, because they would be using the exact same format and system. So while these kind of geo-codes would be very useful and can still be created, they may not be widely recognised.

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

Not as a public service, in the way that the UK postcodes are. The UK postcodes and databases are made freely available.

That's not strictly true, only the list of postcodes and general area geocodes are made available for free. If you want the full database (I.e. All functionality and all addresses) you pay Royal Mail in a similar revenue model to what eircode have (per transaction basis)

moyners

recedite wrote: »

I get your point that you could not get the raw GPS co-ordinates directly from the Loc8 website, any more than you could get them directly from the eircode website.
But this is because both of these are acting as proprietary commercial enterprises. Not as a public service, in the way that the UK postcodes are. The UK postcodes and databases are made freely available. Loc8 does not release its algorithm, and eircode does not release its database for free.

If loc8 had been adopted by the State as the official national system, the algorithm could have been released and made freely available because the maintenance costs of that system are minimal.

They could have just as easily matched the coordinates from geodirectory to loc8 codes or open postcodes, but from there on I don't see how the maintenance would be any less costly? You're still maintaining the same "official" list of addresses against the particular loc8 codes you've assigned (to avoid people being able to generate a different one from a metres away on the same property for fraudulent address purposes). The codes still have to be appended to all the state agency databases, letters still have to be posted out to notify people what their new postcode is, etc.

I'm not knocking geocodes at all, nor am I completely happy with eircode, and I'm not saying €27m is value for money, but if you're going down the route of matching whichever codes you've decided on to addresses and maintaining that as the official list, I don't see how the costs from there on in could be much less?

An open algorithm based geocode would have the advantage that you mentioned for non-address locations. But anyway, that's not the way they went and they're still available for people to use if they like but as you say they won't have the acceptance or visibility they would have had if they had been chosen over the system they've chosen.

Trouwe Ier

I find myself in complete agreement with the vast majority of the most recent posts.

Off topic: The trouble is that the likes of Deputy Murphy have a democratic mandate though not necessarily "to break the law" and what is elected in this country is reflective of the electorate. I am not aligned to any political grouping but do have an aversion to two parties with "F" in their initials. I am apprehensive about what may happen at the next election. Can anyone advise if Deputies Daly and Wallace can legally stand for election next year if they haven't paid their court fines?

Back-to-topic: Is there any legal framework to enable local authorities or any other public body to regulate street naming and house numbering?

Now that we are nearly three weeks into the new regime, has anyone from either side of the fence swapped sides?

recedite

moyners wrote: »

They could have just as easily matched the coordinates from geodirectory to loc8 codes or open postcodes, but from there on I don't see how the maintenance would be any less costly? You're still maintaining the same "official" list of addresses against the particular loc8 codes you've assigned (to avoid people being able to generate a different one from a metres away on the same property for fraudulent address purposes). The codes still have to be appended to all the state agency databases, letters still have to be posted out to notify people what their new postcode is, etc.

One code would need to be assigned to each official address. That is a once off job that never needs to be repeated. One letter sent out; again a once off job.
There is no need to regulate "people who want to generate a different one metres away on the same property for fraudulent address purposes". Being able to generate additional codes for back entrances etc. is a bonus. As long as the database of official codes and the corresponding addresses was freely available, anyone could verify a claimed location code there, just as they can now do with any claimed eircode.

Additional codes would be self generated by the user, at no cost to the system, and would have no official verification by the postcode system. That's not to say they would always be unapproved. Camping and Caravanning association could publish a list of verified location codes for campsites, or the water safety authority could publish one for lifebelt locations etc...
The cost of appending verified address codes to State records is currently borne by individual state agencies and departments, just as the same cost is borne by private enterprise. That is not a maintenance cost of the system itself.

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

One code would need to be assigned to each official address. That is a once off job that never needs to be repeated. One letter sent out; again a once off job.
There is no need to regulate "people who want to generate a different one metres away on the same property for fraudulent address purposes". Being able to generate additional codes for back entrances etc. is a bonus. As long as the database of official codes and the corresponding addresses was freely available, anyone could verify a claimed location code there, just as they can now do with any claimed eircode.

Additional codes would be self generated by the user, at no cost to the system, and would have no official verification by the postcode system. That's not to say they would always be unapproved. Camping and Caravanning association could publish a list of verified location codes for campsites, or the water safety authority could publish one for lifebelt locations etc...
The cost of appending verified address codes to State records is currently borne by individual state agencies and departments, just as the same cost is borne by private enterprise. That is not a maintenance cost of the system itself.

If a geocode was appended to an addresses database it would have the exact same ongoing maintenance costs as eircode, as you say, same one off expense to disseminate but then you need to maintain the codes against the correct address, new buildings, demolishings, etc etc

It's the address database appending that costs the money, Not the code itself.

As we've been told before:

The design cost of say a code like loc8 is on par with ericode design costs. The bulk of the costs of eircode (91%) is for access to the geodirectory, appending codes to government databases and dissemination. All these costs would still need to be spent if we had a geocode + database solution.

clewbays

It is best to have a distinct code format for postal addresses so that they can be distinguished by sight. Other addresses - relating to field gates, back doors, etc. - can use Loc8, GoCode, OpenPostCode etc.

It will be a significant week if ECAD and ECAF are on sale. Anyone get an ESB bill, letter from public sector etc. with an Eircode in the address yet?

larchill

See there is a Boycott eircode page up on Facebook now. Is eircode going the way of Irish Water?

JohnC.

I don't personally see much opposition to it. I don't see people camped out or homemade signs on poles like with water. You'll find any and all sorts of nonsense campaigns on Facebook, so I wouldn't use that as a barometer.

BarryD

larchill wrote: »

See there is a Boycott eircode page up on Facebook now. Is eircode going the way of Irish Water?

Hardly, the public are not being asked to put their hands directly in their pocket. If the government had been smart, they'd have set up IW the same sort of way - i.e. at no direct cost, installed meters as a service and waited a couple of years to churn out the bills.

moyners

larchill wrote: »

See there is a Boycott eircode page up on Facebook now. Is eircode going the way of Irish Water?

Only has 91 likes at the moment as far as I can see. Bit of a ways to go to match the IW backlash.