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National Postcodes to be introduced
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marmurr1916 wrote: »So what?
Does the fact that 'most other countries' have a particular system mean Ireland must adopt it?
No. But it means that Ireland is not some special snowflake that couldn't do it particularly when it's a logical, useful system. Even you have to admit the current addressing system is not flawless.marmurr1916 wrote: »Are you still at that childish stage of psychological development where 'everyone else is doing it, why can't I?' influences your behaviour?
Your attitude is condescending and childish. I am pointing out that when other people have developed functional systems, learning from them actually helps. If you're still at the stage where you refuse to learn from others, I cannot actually help you.marmurr1916 wrote: »
I've yet to see a proposal to solve the problem that 35% of Irish addresses are non-unique which doesn't involve the wholesale addition of numbers and road names to rural townlands. How much would that cost, how long would it take and how would you overcome the public resistance to it? The cost, timescale and likely level of public resistance are very good reasons not to adopt this idea.
I have no idea who you've been speaking to in rural Ireland but I have discussed with family who are directly affected by the issue of roads and rural townlands making delivery planning interesting. I've lived in one of those rural townlands where one house is on a completely different road to every other house in that townland. I am fully aware of the problems caused by the Irish addressing system.marmurr1916 wrote: »You're either you're very young or you've lived in some sort of bubble for most of your life.
I'd like to say you're funny. I've lived in five different European countries besides Ireland, plus I speak the local languages for four of them. The fifth I'm still working on.marmurr1916 wrote: »
Every single time that placenames or postal districts have been given an official format in the past which didn't equate with the wishes of the public in those locations, there have been massive protests.
Look at the controversy surrounding the change from Dingle to An Daingean - that controversy was replicated previously in Co. Cork (Charleville to Rath Lúirc) in Co. Longford (Edgeworthstown to Mostrim) and Co. Meath (Kells to Ceannanas Mór).
I can't comment on Kells or Edgeworthstown, however I am originally from Charleville. I know quite a bit about that saga.
In any case, street numbers and street names does not necessarily require a wholesale change to townland or postal district names as they can be additions rather than replacements. The townlands can be retained but need not be necessary.marmurr1916 wrote: »And what about the big fuss made over the proposal to create a Dublin 26 postal district?
In the end An Post went with D6W because of public pressure not to use a number that might have given the impression that people lived reasonably close to Tallaght in Dublin 24.
In my view, that should not have been allowed.marmurr1916 wrote: »If you think that wholesale changes to addresses in Ireland, including the addition of numbers and road names to existing rural townland addresses, wouldn't cause a huge fuss, then you're either incredibly ill-informed or must have lived under a rock for most of your life.
The fact remains that previous changes have been completely successful in this country.
As an example I can cite O'Connell Street in Dublin, Dun Laoghaire in Dublin, Cobh in Cork, Queens and Kings County in the Midlands and Pearse, Heuston and Connolly Stations. The underlying issue tends to be the underlying reasons for changes. Ballydesmond is another example. I suspect a lot of people would not have an issue with one extra line to their address incorporating a house number and road or street name.
It is also worth noting that the postal system does not match the physical addresses and the existing rural townland addresses are physical addresses. So there are already a number of cases where the addresses have changed anyway.marmurr1916 wrote: »Even the relatively minor changes to placenames and postal districts outlined above have caused huge public controversy in the localities where they were implemented or proposed.
I have provided you with counter examples.marmurr1916 wrote: »This is what happened in Northern Ireland when changes were made to the rural townland system:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Townland
To be honest, I'm never sure that what happens in Northern Ireland in a given case would happen in the Republic. We have a rather different way of looking at the world in certain respects.marmurr1916 wrote: »
What makes you think that it would be any different in the rest of the island of Ireland?
I like to think the people of Ireland are broadly intelligent.marmurr1916 wrote: »Do you think that Irish people are the type to meekly accept what the state dictates without fuss or bother if they're opposed to it?
Unlike you, I don't automatically assume the vast majority of people will be opposed to it. Historically, the people of Ireland take on board changes which they consider to be positive.marmurr1916 wrote: »If you do you must live in some fantasy version of Ireland.
No. I am fairly realistic about how Ireland is. What matters is how Ireland will be in the future. I'd like to have hope that it is a better place in the future than it was in past. Having seen today's announcement on national roads funding, this is difficult at times, but little by little change can be made and better can be expected. The country has changed a lot since the 1990s.marmurr1916 wrote: »
What do you propose to do about it?
The current solution is to let them continue to use their physical address if they want to instead of the postal address.
Eircodes are more than adequate to compensate for the mis-match.
I personally disagree but since your response to that has been lalala I can't hear you I'm not going to bother explaining why again.marmurr1916 wrote: »Have either the UK or Ireland ground to a halt because a small subset of all postal addresses don't match physical addresses?
Ireland hadn't ground to a halt even before it got postal codes. I'm not sure what your point is here. Mine is that we had a unique opportunity to do something cutting edge here. We wasted it and are hiding behind special snowflake status as a reason for laziness.marmurr1916 wrote: »Is there any good reason for the Irish address system not to allow the kind of flexibility encouraged and allowed in the UK when it comes to non-standard addresses?
There are actually practical data processing reasons which make standardised addresses attractive. As well as routing reasons.
Oh we get around them but I think it's useful to occasionally take hard decisions in the short term that have long term benefits. I'm assuming you understand database design by the way.marmurr1916 wrote: »
So basically you're arguing that because Irish Water and the Ringsend incinerator cost far in excess of what they should have we should throw money at changing the address system?
No I am not and the fact that you clearly misinterpreted what I was driving at suggests that perhaps you should read things more carefully. At least one poster before you understood me.
Your argument is that we shouldn't do things properly if it costs a lot of money. I have pointed out that we are quite willing to spend a lot of money on doing things poorly and so " argh it's lots of money" is hardly a valid argument if the net result is a well functioning and very future proofed system. I'm not sure we got that, but then we have a bit to go before we get a reasonable water utility too.marmurr1916 wrote: »Addresses are malleable. They are very flexible in fact. You can use the postal address or the physical address or a combination of the two. And you can can use variant spelling of townland or village or town names, or you can use the Irish version(s) or the English version(s) and all will be accepted by An Post.
I'm not sure what your point here is. The point is that malleability is no argument against extending them to include geographic/navigable information which doesn't necessarily require a database look up. I'm aware that there is likely to come a time when the average young person isn't capable of reading a map but I hope it's a long time off.marmurr1916 wrote: »
So what if eircodes are not fault free? Can you point out any human designed and implemented endeavour that's fault free? Does it do the best job given the existing circumstances? Yes, I can't think of any other system that would do the job as well without causing major disruption and incurring vastly more costs.
I think other people have already pointed out some of the core failings of eircode in terms of supporting non-An Post deliveries. Given that An Post technically did not need it, and you've also argued it's a post code not a navigation aid, it seems to me your point is "it's quite okay to spend money on a non-perfect system which wasn't necessary for the main postal company in the country anyway".
At any rate, you have not provided an argument against the aspiration that we should aim for the best we can get.marmurr1916 wrote: »And for what? Because you can't accept that Ireland shouldn't always be like 'most other countries' and because you want a different postcode system.
No, actually, I want the country to get the best it possibly can. You clearly settle for less.marmurr1916 wrote: »Feck off you bloody culturally illiterate gombeen and feck off to all the other culturally illiterate gombeens who think that introducing house numbers and road names into rural Ireland, at the cost of Ireland's unique heritage of townland names, should even be contemplated as a solution to the problem of non-unique rural addresses, a problem that Eircodes have solved without any need to trash hundreds of years of culture and history.
I missed this little diatribe when I was reading your response earlier today. Quite frankly, this was obnoxious on your part.
Firstly, the introduction of street names and numbers does not have to be at the cost of the townlands. They can be additions rather than replacements.
Secondly, the postal addresses already trash through the historic heritage of townlands. But you seem to be okay with that for some bizarre reason.I think that your analysis is correct, but it is not the real reason that this is an invalid criticism of Eircode. The criticism is not valid because Ericode is no impediment to standardising addressing in Ireland. Such a project is no more difficult now than it was the day before Eircode was introduced, and if completed, it would be no reason to abandon Eircode.
This is correct and I agree with it in principle. In certain respects, the design of the postcode can be a separate matter.This project is not being proposed for its own merits, it is being proposed as a desperate attempt to resist Eircode - there was no mention of it before Eircode was introduced, and it is only being discussed on the Eircode thread. If people genuinely feel strongly about standardising addressing, let them go and campaign for it; nobody here is opposing them, though I think you are right about the opposition they will face. Eircode is no more relevant to this than is draining the Shannon or abolishing the Seanad.
This on the other hand I do not agree with. Ultimately whether we keep eircode or not, there is practical merit in standardising addressing such that physical and postal addresses matches. It is conceptually not a difficult thing to do and is certainly less complicated than round 1 of Irish Water was.marmurr1916 wrote: »Eircodes are issued for actual postal addresses, not potential ones. If recent years should have taught us anything it's that commencement of building doesn't guarantee completion of building. Otherwise why would Ireland be littered with partially completed residential and commercial developments? If every field with a few overgrown house foundations had been issued with eircodes for each house, how long do you think it would be before its critics were howling their outrage? Never give your enemies ammunition.
Given that a lot of criticism has focused on those locations which don't have eircodes I'm surprised to see you think that people would object. In the grand scheme of things, as there is little risk of running out of eircodes, I'm not sure anyone would care. I don't understand why you think Irish people are likely to throw terrible tantrums at the drop of a hat. I think you underestimate their general rationality.
Oh and eircodes were issued for postal addresses which don't fully match the heritage you've argued was an argument in favour of eircodes. The townlands relate to physical addresses.marmurr1916 wrote: »If we did decide to standardise addresses (for no good reason that I can see) we'd have to standardise the placenames used as part of addresses in two languages.
So special snowflake status again. Other countries manage this.marmurr1916 wrote: »If by some miracle you get complete agreement on the Irish language placenames to be used in postal addresses (should it be An Daingean or Daingean Uí Chúis, Mainistir Fhear Maí or Fhearmaí, An Ráth or Ráth Luirc, An Scoil or Scoil Mhuire, An Pasáiste or An Pasáiste Thiar?) agreement would still be needed on the English language versions of placenames.
I feel the need to advise you that Rath Luirc was never the Irish name for Charleville. An Ráth was. Rath Luirc was the official English name for Charleville. These things do evolve over time, by the way.marmurr1916 wrote: »My sister lives in a townland that starts with Kil- (or should it be Kill-?) a very common placename element in Ireland.
The townland I come from has 3 spelling variants and now, most of the post that comes to us, when it's not using the wrong townland courtesy of the postal directory which changed nothing at all) uses the spelling most people have settled on. Common usage goes a long way towards supporting these things.
You might be interested to know that as recently as the 1940s, for example, Mizzen Head in Cork was frequently spelt Mizzen.marmurr1916 wrote: »Good luck telling people that it always has to be Kil- and never Kill-... Especially if they live in Kill, Co. Kildare (or Kill, Co. Waterford, a favourite village of people from Kilkenny)! :P
Special snowflake again.marmurr1916 wrote: »What are you going to do with mail that uses Kill- instead of Kil-, a fairly common mistake? Are you going to mark it 'Return to Sender. Incorrect Address.'?
I wouldn't have an issue with an orthographic error of that nature because over time, spelling settles anyway.marmurr1916 wrote: »Good luck telling people that it should always be Tober- and never Tubber-, good luck enforcing Caher or Cahir...
Most of the time there is a commonly used preference. Again, you are making difficulties where they don't exist. And spelling updates are occasionally forced on locations. Lahinch/Lehinch is a case in point. But all of that is separate to the argument about standardising address formats. You're looking at standardising of placenames spelling which is technically a different matter to the standardisation of the address format.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 5746
Planning permission.
As I understand the system, a map of the location of the application has to be submitted along with the specific details of what it is intended to build.
It would seem to me that as it is a new building, it would make a great deal of sense that when the application is approved, the form giving the approval should carry the official "legal" address for the location, along with the eircode that relates to it, based on the information that will ultimately end up on the Eircode system database.
Yes, there's a chance that the structure won't get built, but with the cost of planning applications these days, most will get built, and if the valid address and code information is set up from the outset, it should help to reduce the confusion that seems to abound at present. And yes, if Eircode are efficient at updating their database, it will also make getting materials delivered to the site, even if it is in the middle of a field initially.
No brainer to me, but given the circles and spin of recent weeks in this thread, I won't be surprised to see all manner of objections to a simple process.Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁
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What you are saying makes sense, but the eircode has nothing to do with the 'legal' address. It is only linked to the postal address. Postal addresses only come into being when a house is actually built.
Unfortunately the way things are set up, an eircode can only be issued after a house gets a postal address which is only after it comes into existence. I do not think this makes a lot of sense, and it could be changed, but the whole operating principle of eircode would have to change.0 -
Some of the posts on here are so long they would have about 100 loc8codes..... but just the one eircode of course
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No. But it means that Ireland is not some special snowflake that couldn't do it particularly when it's a logical, useful system. Even you have to admit the current addressing system is not flawless.
Your attitude is condescending and childish. I am pointing out that when other people have developed functional systems, learning from them actually helps. If you're still at the stage where you refuse to learn from others, I cannot actually help you.
I have no idea who you've been speaking to in rural Ireland but I have discussed with family who are directly affected by the issue of roads and rural townlands making delivery planning interesting. I've lived in one of those rural townlands where one house is on a completely different road to every other house in that townland. I am fully aware of the problems caused by the Irish addressing system.
I'd like to say you're funny. I've lived in five different European countries besides Ireland, plus I speak the local languages for four of them. The fifth I'm still working on.
I can't comment on Kells or Edgeworthstown, however I am originally from Charleville. I know quite a bit about that saga.
In any case, street numbers and street names does not necessarily require a wholesale change to townland or postal district names as they can be additions rather than replacements. The townlands can be retained but need not be necessary.
In my view, that should not have been allowed.
The fact remains that previous changes have been completely successful in this country.
As an example I can cite O'Connell Street in Dublin, Dun Laoghaire in Dublin, Cobh in Cork, Queens and Kings County in the Midlands and Pearse, Heuston and Connolly Stations. The underlying issue tends to be the underlying reasons for changes. Ballydesmond is another example. I suspect a lot of people would not have an issue with one extra line to their address incorporating a house number and road or street name.
It is also worth noting that the postal system does not match the physical addresses and the existing rural townland addresses are physical addresses. So there are already a number of cases where the addresses have changed anyway.
I have provided you with counter examples.
To be honest, I'm never sure that what happens in Northern Ireland in a given case would happen in the Republic. We have a rather different way of looking at the world in certain respects.
I like to think the people of Ireland are broadly intelligent.
Unlike you, I don't automatically assume the vast majority of people will be opposed to it. Historically, the people of Ireland take on board changes which they consider to be positive.
No. I am fairly realistic about how Ireland is. What matters is how Ireland will be in the future. I'd like to have hope that it is a better place in the future than it was in past. Having seen today's announcement on national roads funding, this is difficult at times, but little by little change can be made and better can be expected. The country has changed a lot since the 1990s.
I personally disagree but since your response to that has been lalala I can't hear you I'm not going to bother explaining why again.
Ireland hadn't ground to a halt even before it got postal codes. I'm not sure what your point is here. Mine is that we had a unique opportunity to do something cutting edge here. We wasted it and are hiding behind special snowflake status as a reason for laziness.
There are actually practical data processing reasons which make standardised addresses attractive. As well as routing reasons.
Oh we get around them but I think it's useful to occasionally take hard decisions in the short term that have long term benefits. I'm assuming you understand database design by the way.
No I am not and the fact that you clearly misinterpreted what I was driving at suggests that perhaps you should read things more carefully. At least one poster before you understood me.
Your argument is that we shouldn't do things properly if it costs a lot of money. I have pointed out that we are quite willing to spend a lot of money on doing things poorly and so " argh it's lots of money" is hardly a valid argument if the net result is a well functioning and very future proofed system. I'm not sure we got that, but then we have a bit to go before we get a reasonable water utility too.
I'm not sure what your point here is. The point is that malleability is no argument against extending them to include geographic/navigable information which doesn't necessarily require a database look up. I'm aware that there is likely to come a time when the average young person isn't capable of reading a map but I hope it's a long time off.
I think other people have already pointed out some of the core failings of eircode in terms of supporting non-An Post deliveries. Given that An Post technically did not need it, and you've also argued it's a post code not a navigation aid, it seems to me your point is "it's quite okay to spend money on a non-perfect system which wasn't necessary for the main postal company in the country anyway".
At any rate, you have not provided an argument against the aspiration that we should aim for the best we can get.
No, actually, I want the country to get the best it possibly can. You clearly settle for less.
I missed this little diatribe when I was reading your response earlier today. Quite frankly, this was obnoxious on your part.
Firstly, the introduction of street names and numbers does not have to be at the cost of the townlands. They can be additions rather than replacements.
Secondly, the postal addresses already trash through the historic heritage of townlands. But you seem to be okay with that for some bizarre reason.
This is correct and I agree with it in principle. In certain respects, the design of the postcode can be a separate matter.
This on the other hand I do not agree with. Ultimately whether we keep eircode or not, there is practical merit in standardising addressing such that physical and postal addresses matches. It is conceptually not a difficult thing to do and is certainly less complicated than round 1 of Irish Water was.
Given that a lot of criticism has focused on those locations which don't have eircodes I'm surprised to see you think that people would object. In the grand scheme of things, as there is little risk of running out of eircodes, I'm not sure anyone would care. I don't understand why you think Irish people are likely to throw terrible tantrums at the drop of a hat. I think you underestimate their general rationality.
Oh and eircodes were issued for postal addresses which don't fully match the heritage you've argued was an argument in favour of eircodes. The townlands relate to physical addresses.
So special snowflake status again. Other countries manage this.
I feel the need to advise you that Rath Luirc was never the Irish name for Charleville. An Ráth was. Rath Luirc was the official English name for Charleville. These things do evolve over time, by the way.
The townland I come from has 3 spelling variants and now, most of the post that comes to us, when it's not using the wrong townland courtesy of the postal directory which changed nothing at all) uses the spelling most people have settled on. Common usage goes a long way towards supporting these things.
You might be interested to know that as recently as the 1940s, for example, Mizzen Head in Cork was frequently spelt Mizzen.
Special snowflake again.
I wouldn't have an issue with an orthographic error of that nature because over time, spelling settles anyway.
Most of the time there is a commonly used preference. Again, you are making difficulties where they don't exist. And spelling updates are occasionally forced on locations. Lahinch/Lehinch is a case in point. But all of that is separate to the argument about standardising address formats. You're looking at standardising of placenames spelling which is technically a different matter to the standardisation of the address format.
Townland names do form part of postal addresses - check the eircode product guide if you wish. So your claim that postal addresses have already trashed townland names is simply wrong.
What is this "special snowflake" crap? Why should Ireland have to be precisely like every other country? It's got a unique system of rural addresses which form a significant part of its cultural heritage. Eircodes is the most cost effective, least disruptive and optimal solution to the problem caused by non-unique rural addresses and one which respects Ireland's cultural heritage. So I'm not settling for less than the best when I support eircodes. Am I settling for less than perfect? Yes, because there is no perfect. Best does not mean perfect.
They require a database look-up to get a precise location? This is the 21st century, not the 1950s...
And what is a map if it's not a database in written and schematic visual form?
As for your point about eircodes being used to locate addresses and therefore being a location code, I think we both know that I was referring to non-postal locations when I said eircodes aren't location codes.
Much of the rest of your post is mainly waffle which simply confirms that you don't get that changes to placenames that are unpopular cause controversy.
Rath Luirc was the English name for Charleville? That's a joke, right? Whatever officialdom may have decreed, it's clearly an Irish language name and is a localised expansion on An Ráth which is a generic term without any particular local context.
How could you have standardised addresses if you don't have standarised placenames?
Any chance you might offer your preferred solution to the Athlone Conundrum? How do you eliminate the mismatch between geographic addresses and postal addresses in the case of Athlone and, more importantly, why does it supposedly present a problem in the first place? As the advice on the eircode website says:
"Address Query
The address shown is a postal address. This may include a post town or county that is not a part of the geographic address.
We recommend that you continue using the address you have always used and simply add the Eircode onto the end.
Ok, got it."
So why do we need to standardise addresses at all, or to try to eliminate the differences between geographic and postal addresses when geographic addresses are accepted by the postal services in the same way that they are in the UK (i.e. county names don't form part of UK postal addresses but are commonly used and accepted by Royal Mail - I guess that makes the UK another "special snowflake" country...)?0 -
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Now that we have postcodes, we can use our geographical addresses with the postcode appended, rather than the old system of putting in the "post town, county".
An improvement imho.0 -
marmurr1916 wrote: ».
The names of the Royal Mail NI postal counties used up to 1996 were Co. Antrim, Co. Armagh, Co. Down, Co. Derry (accepted by Royal Mail as official or alternatively Co. Londonderry also accepted by RM as official), Co. Fermanagh and Co. Tyrone. Sound familiar? :P
Now if NI had been assigned the BT postcode area after 1996, it might have made sense for Royal Mail to ignore the counties of Northern Ireland and not to divide NI into smaller postcode areas based on the postal counties, using codes such as AM (Armagh), DN (Down) etc instead of just one BT code for all of NI.
But since postcodes were assigned to NI during a period when Royal Mail was using postal counties as an official part of postal addresses, then it seems to make little sense for Royal Mail to have ignored the NI postal counties when deciding on postcode area codes for NI
Yes but postal towns are based (usually) on towns and cities, not counties. Although the counties are often similar, they are not used for the postal code.
Also, I'm the case of NI, the use of LD as a code to represent either the county or the city and surrounding area would not have gone down well in some circles and the government would have wanted a system that people would actually use, not boycott.
The use of one code for a million and a half people is reasonable, there are codes in GB with more people than that.0 -
dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »Some say that instead of designing Eircodes the way they are, we should have fixed every address in the land, given every boreen a streetname and every house a number. This is Ireland, so there would have been uproar!
Really? Ireland adopted the metric system for the roads with little fuss, yet the UK is still clinging to miles due to the anti-metric brigade. People would have just got on with it.0 -
Really? Ireland adopted the metric system for the roads with little fuss, yet the UK is still clinging to miles due to the anti-metric brigade. People would have just got on with it.
The thing is, people still think in miles, talk to anyone about driving, speed and distance will always be referred to as miles. It's so ingrained even I started doing it.
I guess the government assumed that appending a code to an address was simpler than changing thousands of addresses, getting everyone to use those addresses, updating every map there is, putting up thousands and thousands of streetsigns and getting people to put numbers on their letterboxes (they don't do that in towns and cities, no chance). People are free to ignore Eircodes to a large extend, this would have been hard to ignore.
Leaving the debate over the nature of the code aside, I think this would have caused more upheaval. Just saying.0 -
totally disagree. I'm 47 and don't know anyone +/- 10 years of my own age who uses miles either in terms of distance or speed.dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »The thing is, people still think in miles, talk to anyone about driving, speed and distance will always be referred to as miles. It's so ingrained even I started doing it.
I'm still caught between kilo's and pounds and stone in relation to personal weight and cooking. A lot of people I know still reference their weight in stones and a lot of online recipes and old cookbooks are ounces and pounds but increasingly these are moving to metric and I use metric all the time, converting pounds and ounces to metric either manually or automatically on the recipe website settings.
Kilometres though I use 100% all the time. It's how your car speedometer defines speed, road signs and speed limits are in KM's etc. You have to work very hard to try sticking to miles instead of kilometres.0 -
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A lot of equipment still have instruments that measure using imperial units, UK cars imported usually have speedos that have miles on them, most tape measures/rulers have both, and I could go on.....
Anyway what has this to do with adopting postcodes.
Not a lot as people will migrate to them as and when they need to.0 -
Marmurr1916
It's clear to me you have a far lower opinion of Irish people than I do. I find this sad, but if you're convinced people will go mad over inserting an extra line in their address, then I think you're underestimating their capacity for rationality. You don't appear to understand the difference between this and politically and language motivated placename changes and refuse to understand that I've cited a number of accepted changes.marmurr1916 wrote: »
Rath Luirc was the English name for Charleville? That's a joke, right? Whatever officialdom may have decreed, it's clearly an Irish language name and is a localised expansion on An Ráth which is a generic term without any particular local context.
On the subject of Charleville, I'm going to remind you again. I come from there and I have studied some of the local history in the area. The English language official name for Charleville for a lot of the twentieth century was Rath Luirc. Note the lack of sine fadas because this is important. It tells you that it is not in Irish. Technically in Irish, there would be a fada on the a of Rath and on the u of Luirc if this was in Irish. What you have is there is the anglicisation. They are not unusual: Rathmore/An Ráth Mhór is not so different.
The official Irish name then and still now for Charleville is An Ráth. You can see it on the signposts on the way into the town on googlemaps.
For what it is worth, in terms of a name change, one option for Charleville which might have been more accurate and successful was Rathgoggin. We're not going to know now.marmurr1916 wrote: »How could you have standardised addresses if you don't have standarised placenames?
I'm not arguing about placenames. You don't seem to understand the difference between format and content. As such, I see no point in continuing to debate with you as it is important in the context of what I was discussing.marmurr1916 wrote: »Any chance you might offer your preferred solution to the Athlone Conundrum? How do you eliminate the mismatch between geographic addresses and postal addresses in the case of Athlone and, more importantly, why does it supposedly present a problem in the first place? As the advice on the eircode website says:
By adding a single line to the address including a building number and street name. An Post's routing decisions are not my responsibility but they could be dealt with using a post code. I have not argued against the use of a postcode anywhere in this thread. I have argued that the design chosen left a certain amount to be desired. I am not alone in that by the way, and there have been considered posts on the matter by other people here.marmurr1916 wrote: »So why do we need to standardise addresses at all, or to try to eliminate the differences between geographic and postal addresses when geographic addresses are accepted by the postal services in the same way that they are in the UK (i.e. county names don't form part of UK postal addresses but are commonly used and accepted by Royal Mail - I guess that makes the UK another "special snowflake" country...)?
I don't understand why you think you can argue against "why can't we be like other countries" with "why can't we be like the UK". It is worth noting that one of the issues with county names in the UK is that there have been a large number of reorganisations of counties in the UK over time. A look at Scotland will tell you this. No one would have come up with "Central" as a region name. The Royal Mail uses the postcode system to route mail. An extra line with additional geographic information is not necessarily an issue. I don't know why you think it would be.
Back on the subject of national postcodes, as I have said several times in this thread, I believe this was a lost opportunity in terms of the postcode design, and additionally standardisation of address format. I also recognise we are stuck with it.
I am also done with discussing the matter with you. You've been completely insulting to me in a number of your posts.
@dolanbaker: every new car sold in this country since 2005 has kilometer speed and distance gauges. I take your point about UK imports but they are a comparatively small proportion of the cars on the road here and the number of cars older than 10 years is also diminishing.0 -
By adding a single line to the address including a building number and street name.
You make it seem so simple. Have you read up on previous postings here about long it took to make very little progress on this type of project in Australia? The bottom line here is that Eircodes are based on the geodirectory. That is managed by An Post and OSi. Like with Eircodes, An Post are not going to take the lead on any project to give all addresses a number or a house name and to put locally agreed names on all boreens. Of course they would implement it in 500 years time if they were paid to modify their IT systems ... and then what would the level of adoption be? Would you make it compulsory for addresses to display their number because otherwise the number on its own would be of no use for address identification? Dream on!0 -
One of the specific requirements for tendering companies was that addresses could not be changed, including those in Dublin which already used a postal district as part of their address. Hence, the Dublin 4s, 12, 22s, etc had to be kept.
Changing addresses and all that would be required to go with it was deemed not to be part of the Department of Communications remit. The only requirement they had to focus on was to introduce a postcode for every address so that the 600k non-unique addresses would be given a unique identity.
Every address included every apartment.
Identifying other things besides addresses was regarded as secondary and the design could not compromise its primary function as a postcode for each and every postal address.
Eircodes are not based on the GeoDirectory. The database that was created by Eircode is based on the GeoDirectory and will continue to be over the duration of the licence period.0 -
The number of Eircode approved providers has quietly increased to 11 companies.
https://www.eircode.ie/business/feature
17 companies listed now, up from 16 yesterday. One of the companies, Dataconversion lists Sky, KBC, Applegreen and Volkswagen among its customers.
I ordered a One4all card yesterday and it was the first website I've seen that has a specific field for an eircode. An Post have an eircode on the freepost envelope included with TV Licence mail now also.
Signs of companies starting to slowly use it?
Still no word on Google implementation and they don't seem to have solved the issue of the address not mapping at all in Google maps when you include the eircode line
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I see that Loc8 code now use their Eircode - P43 C966.
Must be a devil to remember.
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I can imagine that they use it through gritted teeth!TheBustedFlush wrote: »I see that Loc8 code now use their Eircode - P43 C966.
Must be a devil to remember.0 -
TheBustedFlush wrote: »I see that Loc8 code now use their Eircode - P43 C966.
Must be a devil to remember.
Where did you see that?0 -
https://twitter.com/autoaddress/status/639809601727295488
Looks like routing key map will be out shortly0 -
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No logic at all to the routing key map.
But then, I keep forgetting that randomness is a virtue in the eircode alternative universe.0 -
No logic at all to the routing key map.
But then, I keep forgetting that randomness is a virtue in the eircode alternative universe.
No logic at all? I believe it's based on the optimisation of An Post delivery areas/routes.
What would you consider logical, a grid that splits houses in half and groups places that could be close geographically but miles apart by road?0 -
I've tried using my eircode and so far the reaction from various companies has been everything from just having no ability to use it at all (including the NDLS). The code was just ignored entirely.
Or, in the case of one of the mobile providers when I was signing up, they actually laughed at me for attempting to include it on a form.
I can see uptake of this being so low that it'll just disappear as it's very clear that businesses have absolutely no interest in using it.0 -
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Unless they get it working on either TomTom or Garmin, or both, no one needs it.0 -
Unless they get it working on either TomTom or Garmin, or both, no one needs it.
Google and Apple maps are the ones they need it working on, this isn't 1999, standalone sat navs are on the way out. Garmin and TomTom are struggling with sat nav sales and are diversifying their product range to keep their companies alive.0 -
I've tried using my eircode and so far the reaction from various companies has been everything from just having no ability to use it at all (including the NDLS). The code was just ignored entirely.
Or, in the case of one of the mobile providers when I was signing up, they actually laughed at me for attempting to include it on a form.
I can see uptake of this being so low that it'll just disappear as it's very clear that businesses have absolutely no interest in using it.
It hasn't taken off yet because the data is only just out and no one has had time to develop for it yet, there's now 17 different companies providing ericode services to end users, but I doubt any are live yet, don't believe all the hype you hear about it failing, it will take time0 -
it will take time
Yes a lot of time even though a lot of money was spent to code public sector databases in advance. Strange how little its use is being encouraged. Even the An Post TV licence website has not been updated to collect it when such an update would have potential revenue benefit for them.0 -
Yes a lot of time even though a lot of money was spent to code public sector databases in advance. Strange how little its use is being encouraged. Even the An Post TV licence website has not been updated to collect it when such an update would have potential revenue benefit for them.
I used to think Eircode's coming out were going to be a positive thing. I actively stuck up for them in previous posts. I started to change my mind though as more detail came out and the way it has been handled and rolled out. I mean it's weeks now and they aren't being used in any meaningful way. Plenty of offical web forms have no postcode fields. Just each little thing chipped away at my ability to say this is a good thing. The lack of joined up thinking with routing and the randomness of them made me begin to wonder.
Then the above highlights it's unfortunately likely to turn into another Irish Gov driven fkup. No one is using them. No couriers I've used bother with them. They still ring me and I have to explain the way to my house even though they could use them on a smartphone. I might have to agree with the posters who said the card with the Eircode will slip behind the mantle piece..... Never to be found again. How many people know their postcode now.....? It's like giving everyone a free set of lottery numbers but never having the draw....
If it continues this way, with no joined up integration of the postcodes, no one needs to bother with it any way. I really hoped I'm proved wrong and suddenly it's adopted by a lot of companies. We'll see I guess. At present my Eircode has been useless to me. Never been asked for it and supplying it has made no difference.0 -
It hasn't taken off yet because the data is only just out and no one has had time to develop for it yet, there's now 17 different companies providing ericode services to end users, but I doubt any are live yet, don't believe all the hype you hear about it failing, it will take time
They only have so much time before the sheen wears off the campaign and it'll be e-voting all over again.0 -
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They only have so much time before the sheen wears off the campaign and it'll be e-voting all over again.
It always was e-Voting.
It was designed with the dead hand of An Post (who did not want them and did not need them) on the crayon. They successfully made them unusable for everyone else. Perhaps they will be redesigned soon, or scrapped - otherwise they will be ignored.0
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This discussion has been closed.
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