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National Postcodes to be introduced

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  • Registered Users Posts: 648 ✭✭✭Tenshot


    Each plot of registered land has a folio number in land registry as it is...
    swampgas wrote: »
    Sure, but does every apartment?

    Individual apartments can be registered with the Land Registry and often are. However, I believe there are plenty of older properties still with the Registry of Deeds that don't have a Land Registry folio number.

    The PRAI website has a useful summary of current Land Registry coverage of properties throughout the country. Dublin is only around 59% so far.

    I wonder if part of the famed €27M development cost has been/will be spent automatically adding Eircodes to existing Land Registry electronic records? It would be convenient to go straight from an Eircode to the associated registry record.


  • Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Each plot of registered land has a folio number in land registry as it is...
    Yes it does, but it is prone to changing when ownership changes, my site had a different folio before the land was separated off from the main farm.

    Wouldn't work as a postcode if that's what you're eluding to.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,723 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    swampgas wrote: »

    They could have allocated random eircodes to the entire country and it would still be extremely valuable from a data management perspective.

    They did, more or less.

    The routing key is pretty close to random - both in size and location. Some are non-contiguous and some have significant enclaves, and they vary in size randomly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    http://personal.aib.ie/help-and-guidance/eircodes


    AIB gearing up to use it soon too


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 27 flushed busted


    ukoda wrote: »


    AIB gearing up to use it soon too

    One would dearly hope that a bank which is majority owned by the people of the Republic will not engage in the use of Eircode for financial profiling of those very same people?

    Previously I was hoping to establish from you based on your notable insight if the Post were actually using the routing key element of the code themselves. It does seem from my own enquiries that those keys are currently not a part of standing postal infrastructure. Can you offer any clarification on that?


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  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,805 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    One would dearly hope that a bank which is majority owned by the people of the Republic will not engage in the use of Eircode for financial profiling of those very same people?

    For what now?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 27 flushed busted


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    For what now?

    I read that Bearing Point in their public notes on "Harnessing the opportunities of Eircodes in the banking industry" include in their bulleted list

    ●Aid integration of both internal and external processes and systems leading to straight through processing e.g. credit checking

    One might deduce therefore, that banking industry consultants see what is intended as a code for structures as something which may be transferred to the individual occupants and used as a key for a credit (financial) profile for both "internal & external processes".

    The implications of this identifiable "opportunity" are for others more qualified than me to assess but one might indeed see it as an emerging point of concern.


  • Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭moyners


    I read that Bearing Point in their public notes on "Harnessing the opportunities of Eircodes in the banking industry" include in their bulleted list

    ●Aid integration of both internal and external processes and systems leading to straight through processing e.g. credit checking

    One might deduce therefore, that banking industry consultants see what is intended as a code for structures as something which may be transferred to the individual occupants and used as a key for a credit (financial) profile for both "internal & external processes".

    The implications of this identifiable "opportunity" are for others more qualified than me to assess but one might indeed see it as an emerging point of concern.

    I'd be worried if a bank owned mostly by the taxpayer wasn't keeping an eye on credit profiles and making certain that people's address details are correct.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 158 ✭✭GJG


    I read that Bearing Point in their public notes on "Harnessing the opportunities of Eircodes in the banking industry" include in their bulleted list

    ●Aid integration of both internal and external processes and systems leading to straight through processing e.g. credit checking

    One might deduce therefore, that banking industry consultants see what is intended as a code for structures as something which may be transferred to the individual occupants and used as a key for a credit (financial) profile for both "internal & external processes".

    The implications of this identifiable "opportunity" are for others more qualified than me to assess but one might indeed see it as an emerging point of concern.

    Well, say the bank has a record of Seamus Murphy, Ballytubber, Co Somewhere having a bad record, What happens if they get a loan application in from Jimmy Murphy, Baile an Tobar, Co Somewhere?

    Up to now they would have to either risk denying credit to someone unfairly, or risk depositors/taxpayers money. Now, false negatives and false positives can be quickly eliminated with great accuracy. A win all round unless, of course, you are one of the people who are complaining that Eircode will prevent you from cheating and stealing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    GJG wrote: »
    Well, say the bank has a record of Seamus Murphy, Ballytubber, Co Somewhere having a bad record, What happens if they get a loan application in from Jimmy Murphy, Baile an Tobar, Co Somewhere?

    Up to now they would have to either risk denying credit to someone unfairly, or risk depositors/taxpayers money. Now, false negatives and false positives can be quickly eliminated with great accuracy. A win all round unless, of course, you are one of the people who are complaining that Eircode will prevent you from cheating and stealing.

    I think you're wrong if you think that this is going to change anything given the propensity in Irish families to name children for their parents. Two people are still going to have the same post code if they are living in the same house.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 27 flushed busted


    GJG wrote: »
    Well, say the bank has a record of Seamus Murphy, Ballytubber, Co Somewhere having a bad record, What happens if they get a loan application in from Jimmy Murphy, Baile an Tobar, Co Somewhere?

    Up to now they would have to either risk denying credit to someone unfairly, or risk depositors/taxpayers money. Now, false negatives and false positives can be quickly eliminated with great accuracy. A win all round unless, of course, you are one of the people who are complaining that Eircode will prevent you from cheating and stealing.

    Indeed. You appear to be making a very credible case for a personal identifier. Are you suggesting that Eircode is to become a personal identifier?

    By of an aside, I have no plans for cheating or stealing at this moment in time but I will advise should there be any change to that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 409 ✭✭StonyIron


    In most cases the bank has your PPS number.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,508 ✭✭✭irishgeo


    StonyIron wrote: »
    In most cases the bank has your PPS number.

    indeed as your need it to get mortgage interest relief.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    people with bank accounts >> people with mortgages


  • Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭moyners


    Indeed. You appear to be making a very credible case for a personal identifier. Are you suggesting that Eircode is to become a personal identifier?

    By of an aside, I have no plans for cheating or stealing at this moment in time but I will advise should there be any change to that.

    I don't really follow - what exactly is the problem you forsee with banks (or any other business for that matter) using an eircode to verify someone's address? Surely anything that cuts down on confusion is a good thing? If you don't entirely trust the banks, then same here - banks have always and always will be looking out for themselves, but that doesn't mean it's not a good idea to be more exact about record keeping for credit checks and other processes.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 27 flushed busted


    moyners wrote: »
    I don't really follow - what exactly is the problem you forsee with banks (or any other business for that matter) using an eircode to verify someone's address? Surely anything that cuts down on confusion is a good thing? If you don't entirely trust the banks, then same here - banks have always and always will be looking out for themselves, but that doesn't mean it's not a good idea to be more exact about record keeping for credit checks and other processes.

    One must not allow confusion on the point raised to permeate.
    An issue regarding the verification of addresses was not raised. Rather, the issue of Bearing Point suggesting that Eircode could be using for credit checking was the matter at hand. According to my own understanding credit checking or financial profiling is associated with a person rather than an address.

    I enquired of an earlier poster if they envisaged Eircode being employed as a personal identifier. If so, one could immediately conceive of a number of complications. Do you not think so?


  • Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭moyners


    One must not allow confusion on the point raised to permeate.
    An issue regarding the verification of addresses was not raised. Rather, the issue of Bearing Point suggesting that Eircode could be using for credit checking was the matter at hand. According to my own understanding credit checking or financial profiling is associated with a person rather than an address.

    I enquired of an earlier poster if they envisaged Eircode being employed as a personal identifier. If so, one could immediately conceive of a number of complications. Do you not think so?

    I know that when you apply to Irish Credit Bureau to see your credit history you have to provide your last few addresses to make sure that they provide you with the correct record. I can see how having an eircode will simplify this process and avoid mistakes around that aspect. The eircode will identify your unique address. As an earlier poster mentioned, banks usually already have a unique person identifier - your PPS. You say that one could immediately conceive of a number of complications. I confess that they're not immediately apparent to me. It would be good to hear your specific worries?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 27 flushed busted


    moyners wrote: »
    I know that when you apply to Irish Credit Bureau to see your credit history you have to provide your last few addresses to make sure that they provide you with the correct record. I can see how having an eircode will simplify this process and avoid mistakes around that aspect. The eircode will identify your unique address. As an earlier poster mentioned, banks usually already have a unique person identifier - your PPS. You say that one could immediately conceive of a number of complications. I confess that they're not immediately apparent to me. It would be good to hear your specific worries?

    I note again you are discussing the verification of addresses.
    Perhaps I have not made myself clear enough but the matter I have raised related to the promotion of Eircode for credit checking/financial profiling by Bearing Point which I do believe assisted with introducing Eircode.

    It seems to me that if one wanted to profile an individual then one would need an identifier unique to that individual. Correct me if I am wrong but neither an address nor an Eircode is a unique personal identifier. I would venture to say that it is not even a unique business identifier but again if I am wrong please let me know.

    This being the case, I would have imagined that if financial profiling were to take place, then a PPS number or a CRO number would be the basic requirement rather than an Eircode?

    I would further venture to say that whilst Eircode might help validate an address, such is no proof that an individual or business occupies that address. The Public availability of the Eircode finder map with all the addresses and codes may well make it easier than heretofore to match code and address and then move to associate it with anyone's profile!

    Unless you are in a position to advise that the simple provision of an Eircode and an associated address can prove that you reside at an address?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    moyners wrote: »
    I know that when you apply to Irish Credit Bureau to see your credit history you have to provide your last few addresses to make sure that they provide you with the correct record. I can see how having an eircode will simplify this process and avoid mistakes around that aspect. The eircode will identify your unique address. As an earlier poster mentioned, banks usually already have a unique person identifier - your PPS. You say that one could immediately conceive of a number of complications. I confess that they're not immediately apparent to me. It would be good to hear your specific worries?
    Banks aren't allowed use your ppsn unless you are an employee of theirs, they're not on the register of users on the social welfare client identity section.
    Q8. Who can ask me for my PPS Number?

    A8. You can only be asked for your PPS Number by one of the agencies listed in the Register of Users or by an authorised agent of one of these bodies. Your employer will also use your PPS Number for the purposes of advising Revenue and Department of Social Protection of your tax deductions and Pay Related Social Insurance (PRSI) contributions.

    ...

    Q11. What do I do if someone who is not entitled to use the PPS Number asks me for it?

    A11. If you believe that a person asking for your PPS Number is not entitled to do so, do not give them your number until you have contacted Client Identity Services of the Department of Social Protection, Social Wefare Services, Shannon Lodge, Carrick-on-Shannon, County Leitrim (Telephone 01-7043281) for advice. You can also email Client Identity Services at cis@welfare.ie


  • Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭moyners


    Banks aren't allowed use your ppsn unless you are an employee of theirs, they're not on the register of users on the social welfare client identity section.

    I don't really have much knowledge in the area - what about for tax purposes?

    Edit: A quick Google says that they can ask for it but can't record it in their computer database. Seems a bit silly to me but anyway...

    Spotted this opportunistic set-up :D
    http://www.eircodetext.com/


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,455 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    moyners wrote: »
    I don't really have much knowledge in the area - what about for tax purposes?

    Edit: A quick Google says that they can ask for it but can't record it in their computer database. Seems a bit silly to me but anyway...

    Spotted this opportunistic set-up :D
    http://www.eircodetext.com/
    €2 for what is most likely just a free lookup on the Eircode website?! :eek:

    Interestingly enough this same number used to pump out unsubscribe-able weekly sports trivia for a few tens of cent a pop back in 2007. :rolleyes: No idea if it's related.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,805 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    It seems to me that if one wanted to profile an individual then one would need an identifier unique to that individual.

    Ideally, yes. But given that there is no such unique identifier readily available, profiling an individual becomes an exercise in trying to identify that individual through a combination of their name and current and recent addresses. If addresses can be unambiguously identified, this goes some way towards identifying the individual.

    If you would prefer that we all have a unique identifying number that we are required to provide in all dealings with public and private bodies, feel free to make that case.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Ideally, yes. But given that there is no such unique identifier readily available, profiling an individual becomes an exercise in trying to identify that individual through a combination of their name and current and recent addresses. If addresses can be unambiguously identified, this goes some way towards identifying the individual.

    If you would prefer that we all have a unique identifying number that we are required to provide in all dealings with public and private bodies, feel free to make that case.

    I have a unique identifying number which I have to provide in all dealings with public and, on the private sector front, my landlord. YMMV and all that but it now also comes with a photo id which is required to be presented should I need to make any claims against one of them public bodies with an interest in it. I don't have an objection to an official identity card program by the way but we haven't that, we have the PPSN card and now, we'll have this passport ID card that's linked to your passport. So the question is whether we want to extend the usage of the pps number to more private sector service providers. Regardless of whether you choose that, or any other arbitrary identifier, there are security risks.

    Ultimately, the problem and risk that I see is that people are not identified on the basis of their address but profiled on the basis of their postcode. There is a difference.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,805 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Calina wrote: »
    Regardless of whether you choose that, or any other arbitrary identifier, there are security risks.
    Yes, there are. The problem arises when the existence of risk is taken as a reason not to do something, with no further discussion.

    My other half is Danish. She has a "CPR number" that she was assigned at birth (no applying for a PPS number when you get around to it). Not only does she use that for all her dealings with the Danish government, she uses it to log in to her Nordea online banking. Danes are pragmatic people.
    Ultimately, the problem and risk that I see is that people are not identified on the basis of their address but profiled on the basis of their postcode. There is a difference.
    In the absence of being able to unambiguously identify people per se, the next best thing is to unambiguously identify where they've lived. I'm still waiting to hear why that's a bad thing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Yes, there are. The problem arises when the existence of risk is taken as a reason not to do something, with no further discussion.

    My other half is Danish. She has a "CPR number" that she was assigned at birth (no applying for a PPS number when you get around to it). Not only does she use that for all her dealings with the Danish government, she uses it to log in to her Nordea online banking. Danes are pragmatic people. In the absence of being able to unambiguously identify people per se, the next best thing is to unambiguously identify where they've lived. I'm still waiting to hear why that's a bad thing.

    PPS numbers are assigned at birth registration now. Perhaps you were not aware of that.

    The point is that identifying unambiguously where people have lived involves someone giving you that information, usually the people concerned. If they don't, postcode or no postcode, you're still not able to unambiguously identify someone. Personally, my view is that you should aim to solve the direct problem which is identify the person and not try to use a proxy value because postcode or no postcode, that can simply be gamed by excluding values.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,805 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Calina wrote: »
    PPS numbers are assigned at birth registration now. Perhaps you were not aware of that.
    I wasn't, thanks.
    The point is that identifying unambiguously where people have lived involves someone giving you that information, usually the people concerned. If they don't, postcode or no postcode, you're still not able to unambiguously identify someone.
    No, but you're falling back on the argument that, because it won't perfectly solve the problem, therefore it won't do anything to address the problem. Which isn't true.
    Personally, my view is that you should aim to solve the direct problem which is identify the person and not try to use a proxy value because postcode or no postcode, that can simply be gamed by excluding values.
    As I said: if you want to campaign for a society in which you have to give your PPS number to private companies on request, go for it - but it's something that Irish people seem extremely reluctant to do.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,076 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    In a taxi today....gave him the adress (just outside ranelagh)...knew he wasnt sure, i said i have the eircode....he said it was absolutely no use to me....i had to use maps on the phone with my sat nav(just inputted address) to get us there. What use is the code?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,480 ✭✭✭thierry14


    joeguevara wrote: »
    In a taxi today....gave him the adress (just outside ranelagh)...knew he wasnt sure, i said i have the eircode....he said it was absolutely no use to me....i had to use maps on the phone with my sat nav(just inputted address) to get us there. What use is the code?

    Until it's supported by Google maps, it's not worth a **** to anyone.

    Heads should roll for this roll out, they should have given the codes to Google for free/cheap.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,508 ✭✭✭irishgeo


    thierry14 wrote: »
    Until it's supported by Google maps, it's not worth a **** to anyone.

    Heads should roll for this roll out, they should have given the codes to Google for free/cheap.

    someone would complain if they did that. we already in trouble with out tax dealings with these companies.


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  • Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    joeguevara wrote: »
    In a taxi today....gave him the adress (just outside ranelagh)...knew he wasnt sure, i said i have the eircode....he said it was absolutely no use to me....i had to use maps on the phone with my sat nav(just inputted address) to get us there. What use is the code?
    thierry14 wrote: »
    Until it's supported by Google maps, it's not worth a **** to anyone.

    Heads should roll for this roll out, they should have given the codes to Google for free/cheap.
    Just use https://finder.eircode.ie/#/ and enter the postcode, simples!


This discussion has been closed.
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