National Postcodes to be introduced

BarryM

An Post's own post redirection service does not use the codes.

BarryM

BarryM wrote: »

An Post's own post redirection service does not use the codes.

Most likely it is due to the forms not being updated or you've got an older one, put the code on anyway, they'll use it.

Carawaystick

a65b2cd wrote: »

So a household survey and a survey of businesses. Do you really think they interviewed children? The survey was conducted during the dissemination which means during July.

The public includes all residents of the state. There is no way to extrapolate any figure for the public from the surveys done. Hence the person answering the pq is a liar

flushed busted

ukoda wrote: »

So can I now claim that An Post do use it? As you seem to think you can claim from one example that they don't ? So I'm going to go ahead and claim from 1 example that they do indeed use it

Being thorough and methodical about this, if the Post are promoting postal addresses and not Eircode, if they do not include Eircode in their online address checker, if they have no dedicated facility in delivery units for handling Eircode and if they have not deployed related technology with mobile postal workers to interpret it, then one could reasonably deduce that the Post have not yet chosen to implement Eircode throughout their operations.

Previously I enquired if the Post were using the route key part of Eircode and if it reflected their own existing sorting infrastructure. To date there is no evidence forthcoming to suggest that his is the case either.

I have also enquired of postal workers directly and to date none have offered other than a negative response with respect to their use of Eircode.

One can put the occasional delivery of mail addressed only with an Eircode and no postal address, simply down to the well recognised personal diligence of individual postal persons who choose to use their own personal resources rather than returning to sender as others have done.

GJG

flushed busted wrote: »

Being thorough and methodical about this, if the Post are promoting postal addresses and not Eircode, if they do not include Eircode in their online address checker, if they have no dedicated facility in delivery units for handling Eircode and if they have not deployed related technology with mobile postal workers to interpret it, then one could reasonably deduce that the Post have not yet chosen to implement Eircode throughout their operations.

Previously I enquired if the Post were using the route key part of Eircode and if it reflected their own existing sorting infrastructure. To date there is no evidence forthcoming to suggest that his is the case either.

I have also enquired of postal workers directly and to date none have offered other than a negative response with respect to their use of Eircode.

One can put the occasional delivery of mail addressed only with an Eircode and no postal address, simply down to the well recognised personal diligence of individual postal persons who choose to use their own personal resources rather than returning to sender as others have done.

No, you couldn't possibly reasonably deduce that. An Post is a large and complex organisation.employing thousands of people in a conservative and union-dominated workforce. Change can take years from decision to implementation. You'd be as well working out the decisions made in the White House Situation room by talking to one of the marines guarding the embassy in Ballsbridge.

flushed busted

GJG wrote: »

No, you couldn't possibly reasonably deduce that. An Post is a large and complex organisation.employing thousands of people in a conservative and union-dominated workforce. Change can take years from decision to implementation. You'd be as well working out the decisions made in the White House Situation room by talking to one of the marines guarding the embassy in Ballsbridge.

aha good, you have some evidence that the Post have implemented Eircode then?

Sam Russell

Surely if An Post intended to use Eircode they would have informed the employees who are actually going to use it. Anytime I have asked a postie, I am told that they know nothing about it - that includes workers in the sorting office and posties pushing bilkes.

irishgeo

i am sure they use if they have a letter than has an incorrect address and cant be delivered but has an eircode.

GJG

flushed busted wrote: »

aha good, you have some evidence that the Post have implemented Eircode then?

That's not how debating works. You have made an assertion - that "[An]Post have not yet chosen to implement Eircode throughout their operations", and it is not my responsibility to prove you wrong, or accept that it is true just because you say so.

The fact that you are not even clear whether you are claiming that An Post have not yet implemented Eircode or not decided to implement Eircode, suggests it's not only the rules of debating that you are fuzzy on. If you want to make an assertion, then it is up to you back it up. Rather than making hokey conclusions from your own narrow observations, you could just go to the source.

An Post continues to engage with Capita, the Postcode Management Licence Holder and to work closely with all the parties towards the effective and successful implementation of the new eircode system.

liam24

GJG wrote: »

That's not how debating works. You have made an assertion - that "[An]Post have not yet chosen to implement Eircode throughout their operations", and it is not my responsibility to prove you wrong, or accept that it is true just because you say so.

The fact that you are not even clear whether you are claiming that An Post have not yet implemented Eircode or not decided to implement Eircode, suggests it's not only the rules of debating that you are fuzzy on. If you want to make an assertion, then it is up to you back it up. Rather than making hokey conclusions from your own narrow observations, you could just go to the source.

I'm afraid you've gotten mixed up between "decided not to implement" and "not decided to implement", which mean two entirely different things.

flushed busted

GJG wrote: »

Rather than making hokey conclusions from your own narrow observations, you could just go to the source. "An Post continues to engage with Capita, the Postcode Management Licence Holder and to work closely with all the parties towards the effective and successful implementation of the new eircode system"

I remain unconvinced that there is any tangible evidence that the Post has implemented Eircode in any substantive manner.
Thank you for the link. It does not seem relevant however. It appears to refer to wider societal implementation of Eircode rather than implementation internal to the Post. From wider debate, one would be conscious that Capita Inc's responsibility does not extend to the Post's internal affairs and for that reason the link is unlikely to offer any insight into the Post's operational implementation of Eircode.

As there is tangible evidence of Eircode not being supported by the Post via their web portal, in delivery units or with delivery personnel and that they have actively sought correct postal address detail on mail but not Eircode, then the absence of real evidence of integration and use of Eircode within their systems is more and more notable.

For some time, I have sought evidence to the contrary but alas it appears that the very fact that hairs are being split on the matter advances the prospect that such evidence is not available.

One would imagine that if the Post were actively using Eircode and pursuing its use for mail, such would be rather conspicuous at this point, don't you think?

StonyIron

From a cost benefit point of view, I don't think they'll be in any rush.

It's likely it'll get implemented at sorting centre level easily enough by just adding the database to the dataset the machines use.

However, your local postie may not necessarily use it if he/she has the normal address. All eircode would do is ensure your local postie gets the right letters.

I could also see this turning into a trade union issue - one of the key pieces of info that gave your local postie job security and some degree of power over the company is unique local knowledge in a totally chaotic addressing system.

In theory, eircode could make deliveries more flexible - people swapping routes, possible outsourcing etc etc

You can see where this will probably end up...

That being said, without actual local addresses and house numbering a new postie will still struggle even if eircode was used universally on letters which is unlikely for years.

Being a random code, it's of little help to the local aspect of bulk deliveries to every house. It's more useful for one odd parcels where a house has to be found by a courier and for central sorting machines.

Carawaystick

The C&AG found issues with eircode

de paper wrote:

It says cost-benefit analyses carried out by the Department of Communications were based on an entirely different model to the area-based scheme the Government eventually settled on.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/govt-watchdog-doubtful-eircode-will-achieve-benefits-govt-had-hoped-for-698255.html

The section of the C&AG's report is here

threeiron

Carawaystick wrote: »

The C&AG found issues with eircode

Interesting report. Doesn't make pleasant reading for the Department managing the project. Plenty of information on costs and payments that was not independently made available by the Department. GeoDirectory comes out of it very favourably in financial terms with possibility of earning 2 million annually. Criticism of the use of non-competitive tender awards by the Department.

Most serious criticism is probably the failure by the Department to begin negotiations with GeoDirectory and to address data protection legislation changes in a timely manner (comment 13.85). These failures resulted in a delayed launch and missing the opportunity to have the Eircodes database as the basis for the Local Property Tax register etc. reducing the immediate benefit of it to Revenue.

MBSnr

Tenshot wrote: »

Someone mentioned this earlier, but no harm to repeat it. Anecdotal, but we'll know for sure within three weeks:

https://twitter.com/Greadyfarmer/status/627941516145729536

only a few hrs left...

Curly Judge

What a wonderful little country!

Our best and brightest sit down to design an Arab stallion, but this Committee of Fools end up giving us a three legged dromedary.

tvc15

threeiron wrote: »

These failures resulted in a delayed launch and missing the opportunity to have the Eircodes database as the basis for the Local Property Tax register etc. reducing the immediate benefit of it to Revenue.

So it looks like the actual reason we have unique property based postcodes is a dodgy cost benefit analysis done by the department which assumed massive database matching savings with the Eircode. I actually like unique codes but at least the reasoning behind them is clear and the lazy decision not to make the routing keys more granular is down to no cost savings

recedite

Carawaystick wrote: »

The C&AG found issues with eircode

The section of the C&AG's report is here

Looks like the European Commission thing is still ongoing...

The EC considered that the Department’s provision on minimum required turnover (€40 million for each member of a consortium) seemed to preclude the possibility of members of a consortium relying on the capacities of other members, a possibility specifically permitted under Article 47(3) of Directive 2004/18/EC.1 The Irish authorities were requested to adopt measures to avoid similar errors in the future and to inform the EC of those measures.
13.71 In October 2014, the Department notified the EC of the measures put in place to deal with minimum turnover thresholds. The measures were stated to be in the form of a circular issued by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform – Circular 10/2014 on Initiatives to assist Small and Medium Enterprises (SMEs) in Public Procurement. In April 2015, the EC notified the Department that it did not consider that the circular addressed the concerns raised.
13.72 In June 2015, the Office of Government Procurement provided material for a further response to the EC indicating that the Irish authorities are actively encouraging and helping SMEs to participate in tender competitions. The response explains the various circulars, administrative arrangements and advisory services in place to do this. It also states that the consortium that was awarded the contract includes an SME.

No explanation from the govt. of why they stuck in this €40M rule, which the other SME (but nobody else) knew would not be enforced. Tico Works/Go-Code had an insider, but Loc8 code did not.

Also they mention a load of consultants who were appointed outside of any open tendering process whatsoever, and got paid up to €1600 per day. That one guy got €51,520 for a few weeks work. Very lucky, or very well connected.

MBSnr

GJG wrote: »

I suspect there is some slippy language in there alright. Note that the claim isn't 'know by heart'. I know my bank account number, but I don't know it by heart.



Evidence is otherwise.



The total then, one month after launch was 3,728. The same searches today, less than eight weeks later give a total of 13,360 results. Of course public adoption will drive business adoption and vice versa, so they have to get to a critical mass, but that looks like a fair old rate of increase.

A Google search for Dublin postal areas hardly indicates mass countrywide adoption. Sure the cities have a greater number of businesses, therefore a larger number of Google results...

Do a search for "Fermoy P61" - 6 results, "Mitchelstown P67" - 3 results, "Mayo F31" 3 relevant results.

How about "Waterford x91" or "Listowel v31" - Hotels, nearly all duplicated entries on the 1st page.

oscarBravo

MBSnr wrote: »

"Mayo F31" 3 relevant results.

I don't know what search engine you're using, but I get a hell of a lot more than 3 results for that - and that's leaving aside the fact that for some reason you decided to use the routing key for the Ballinrobe area rather than the F23 Castlebar area.

GJG

MBSnr wrote: »

A Google search for Dublin postal areas hardly indicates mass countrywide adoption. Sure the cities have a greater number of businesses, therefore a larger number of Google results...

Do a search for "Fermoy P61" - 6 results, "Mitchelstown P67" - 3 results, "Mayo F31" 3 relevant results.

How about "Waterford x91" or "Listowel v31" - Hotels, nearly all duplicated entries on the 1st page.

You might be misunderstanding how Google works. Search terms between "double quotes" only return those exact text strings. Dublin people typically wrote Dublin 7 or whatever, so it is to be expected that they will often write the Eircode directly after the word Dublin, so my search terms:

GJG wrote: »

• Search for the exact string “Dublin D01”
• Search for the exact string “Dublin D02”

catch more than 14,000 pages just for Dublins 1 and 2. People outside Dublin are unlikely to write their eircode in a consistent position as part of their address, so it is difficult to search for. Without quotes, Mayo F31 returns 96k results, most of them are likely to be false positives, but if you glance at the results, it is clear that hundreds of them are people quoting their eircodes.

Also, both of our searches are omitting pages where people write their eircode without putting a space between the two parts.

moyners

The FTAI and Gamma are both speaking about Eircode at a conference tomorrow:

https://twitter.com/newsfromftai/status/649609900969078784

The abstract for the FTAI's presentation looks surprisingly conciliatory!

MarkK

GJG wrote: »

Dublin people typically wrote Dublin 7 or whatever, so it is to be expected that they will often write the Eircode directly after the word Dublin, so my search terms:

I'd put Eircode on a line on its own underneath, so it would not be found by a double quotes search like yours.

Tenshot

moyners wrote: »

The FTAI and Gamma are both speaking about Eircode at a conference tomorrow:

https://twitter.com/newsfromftai/status/649609900969078784

The abstract for the FTAI's presentation looks surprisingly conciliatory!

I went along to this, and thought Neil McDonnell made quite a good case.

He was arguing that Eircode works well for the particular situations its proponents are talking about, they're just not the same situations that the FTAI's members find particularly useful. He had a good example of four addresses within a single routing key (Galway) that were 130 Km apart.

He did agree that Eircode has been excellent at (a) cleaning up government databases, and (b) getting the general public more engaged in the discussion about post codes/location codes in general.

Given that Eircode is here, and not going anywhere soon, he suggested extending it to allow additional functionality that would be useful within the distribution & logistics industry, and not reliant on a central database. In effect, existing Eircode becomes a subset of a larger Postcode system, rather than trying to shoehorn the requirements into the existing Eircode-with-139-routing-keys.

For example, he said, all current Eircodes start with an alphabetic character. You could extend this so that Eircodes with a leading digit are treated as a location-based code instead. With 10 * (25^6) possibilities, that's 2.4 billion codes available, none of which overlap with current or future planned Eircodes, and yet still compliant with the Eircode character set. You can include some error detection and still have plenty of space left for geographical accuracy.

I think that's not a bad idea, certainly for handling locations that are not part of the main ECAD system (landmarks, building sites, roadside assistance, etc) and it has the advantage of being easily distinguished from "official" Eircodes.

For delivery purposes though, you still need to deal with addresses using normal Eircodes, so it doesn't really remove the need for a database.

Which brings up an interesting point. Another speaker mentioned that you can license the full ECAD database for a single user to use for one year for €180, which is not expensive.

I wonder: If you process that data once to convert every Eircode into a LOC8 code, can you publish a (free) database containing just Eircodes and corresponding LOC8 codes? What you're publishing contains only raw Eircodes, arguably public information, with no other explicit information from ECAD, and LOC8 codes which are similarly considered public. Thoughts?

plodder

Tenshot wrote: »

Which brings up an interesting point. Another speaker mentioned that you can license the full ECAD database for a single user to use for one year for €180, which is not expensive.

They forgot the annual data access fee.

180 + 500 annual data access fee = €680 for one user.

I was looking at the google app store the other day to see are there any apps yet that use it. I couldn't find one.

Tenshot

plodder wrote: »

They forgot the annual data access fee.

180 + 500 annual data access fee = €680 for one user.

Hmm... yes they did. Pity! Makes it a lot less affordable for small organisations.

Price list here

ukoda

Tenshot wrote: »

Hmm... yes they did. Pity! Makes it a lot less affordable for small organisations.

Price list here

Five or six hundred euro is not out of the reach of any SME, the only reason they should buy the database is if they do a proper cost benefit on it and determine that using eircode would save them X amount of money per annum, if that X number is above the cost of the database then they've made a good investment. If it's not, don't buy eircode. No one losses out if they are smart about it.

oscarBravo

An SME doesn't need to license the database; they can do like we did and deal with a reseller, which allows us to pay per lookup. This allows us full integration with our billing and customer management system for quite a reasonable cost.

TheChizler

oscarBravo wrote: »

An SME doesn't need to license the database; they can do like we did and deal with a reseller, which allows us to pay per lookup. This allows us full integration with our billing and customer management system for quite a reasonable cost.

How does that work out of interest? Do they provide you with some sort of Java plugin type thing or is it more like an SQL lookup?

ukoda

Spotted this on Twitter


https://twitter.com/manaboutcouch/status/650020976806244353


Looks like eircode is about to become a lot more useful