National Postcodes to be introduced

iMax

All the while ignoring the other points made previously...

Carawaystick

GetWithIt wrote: »

I'm confused. What do you think a postcode is?

To my eyes what you have described is exactly what a postcode should be.

The argument that well you have gps so why would you need a postcode is a nonsense.

"Ok, love, your house is on fire can you just give me the gps coordinate?
Yes, it's -84274.1233, 923461.12312.
Was that -84274.1232, 923461.12313?
No, -84274.1233, 923461.12312.
-84274.12323, 923461.12312?
No, -84274.1233, 923461.12312."

A postcode is just a short code for a gps coordinate. Nothing more.

A postcode in France say 66190 identifies the commune of Collioure, in the dept of Pyrenees Orientales.

My point was that the loc8 code was an 8char code when a 9char grid ref would give the same thing. It's hardly a great leap froward.
If you were to give lat/long it'd be 11 chars in doublets, still only a relative improvement.

Garry can't explain how user generated loc8 codes are so muchbetter than user generated grid references.
hasn't explained why when I tried to gen a loc8 code, google gave directions to a motorway beside this location, with a >10km round trip from the point on the motorway to the actual location
nothing about how an unconnected device could navigate using a radio signal
nothing about not having a database of townlands
nothing about how an actual gate could be listed on a postal address
etc.

Lastly. I looked up your website again. The whole system is secret. This is a fundamental flaw. If loc8 code limited go bust, how reliable is the system?
I'd also be highly interested in finding out how the algorithm is copyrighted. it says on http://www.myloc8ion.com/products/licensing that "Loc8 Code algorithm enjoys full copyright protection". Only an expression of an idea can be copyrighted, an algorithm cannot be copyrighted. In certain countries, algorithms, under certain circumstances can be patented, where the implementation cannot be copied. You can't have both. Also there is no year date for the copyright notice.

Solair

To me not having post codes is a bit like still having operator-switched telephones.

It's the postal equivalent of having to turn a handle and ask for Ballydehob 9.

Antiquated and a bit weird.

garydubh

Carawaystick wrote: »

A postcode in France say 66190 identifies the commune of Collioure, in the dept of Pyrenees Orientales.

My point was that the loc8 code was an 8char code when a 9char grid ref would give the same thing. It's hardly a great leap froward.
If you were to give lat/long it'd be 11 chars in doublets, still only a relative improvement.

Garry can't explain how user generated loc8 codes are so muchbetter than user generated grid references.
hasn't explained why when I tried to gen a loc8 code, google gave directions to a motorway beside this location, with a >10km round trip from the point on the motorway to the actual location
nothing about how an unconnected device could navigate using a radio signal
nothing about not having a database of townlands
nothing about how an actual gate could be listed on a postal address
etc.

Lastly. I looked up your website again. The whole system is secret. This is a fundamental flaw. If loc8 code limited go bust, how reliable is the system?
I'd also be highly interested in finding out how the algorithm is copyrighted. it says on http://www.myloc8ion.com/products/licensing that "Loc8 Code algorithm enjoys full copyright protection". Only an expression of an idea can be copyrighted, an algorithm cannot be copyrighted. In certain countries, algorithms, under certain circumstances can be patented, where the implementation cannot be copied. You can't have both. Also there is no year date for the copyright notice.

I always do answer qusetions - but you do have to read the detail and make some effort to consider what is being said! Here we go again...

1. I have explained many times Loc8 is 7 characters with and 8th checker and can be validated and is only available from a quality source - unlike grid references - which cause great problems for users - I support and deal with the problems every day - I am not new to this!

2. Loc8 Code is more appropriate that Grid references for many reasons not least a series of numerals cannot be validated and the quality of the source is not immediately known. There are 2 grid reference systems in Ireland - which already causes confusion even for professional users. Grid refernerces are fine for professionals - but not a solution for wide public access where users will have to use without checking and prior knowledge. You must think beyond your own narrow experience and requirements. This point has been made by several people and is highlighted by the fact that no country has ever used Lat/long or Grid References as a publicly relied upon post/geocode for all the reasons highlighted by me and others here.

3. A Loc8 Code is an exact destination it is not a routing solution - Google does its own routing over which Loc8 has no control - many who users of naviagtion devices for everyday use will invest in solutions that do better routing and have better road mapping than Google. It is important not to confuse a Loc8 Code precise address with the quality of software that may use it - they are different! Loc8 Code provides a robust, reliable non random precise address - the navigation and routing are others' products.

4. Not sure what you are suggesting by "unconnected device using a radio signal" - GPS use radio signals - but that's nothing to do with Loc8 Codes.

5. Loc8 Code does not need a database of townlands? Once a Loc8 Code is created through our site, it can be used without the address - though not encouraged.

6. When you create a Loc8 Code for a property and chose to validate it, you can add the Loc8 code for entrances etc. On the web or connected devices - entering the Loc8 Code for a property will also show any connected Loc8 Codes (entrances etc) Similarly, entering an entrance Loc8 Code will also show the related property Loc8 Code.

7. Loc8 Code is not secret - see earlier posts where a link to the patent is shown with full detail of the code. Several organisations have full access to the code - however we control how people use it under license so the quality is guaranteed. What is it about Irish people that they give Irish business no credit - we have no plans to go bust but you can be sure that Loc8 Code is proptected for ongoing use.
What will you do if Google goes bust - will a related fear stop you from using Google... a little sense is always useful.

8. A French postcode does not try to identify a property - the property is identified by an unambiguous address used with the code - the code is just used for mail sorting nothing else - I made this point in my last reply to you - 40% of Irish properties do not have an unambiguous address and this is unlikely to change (as officially recognised in initial research into irish postcodes) - so the French/European type postcode will not work for Ireland (and the UK postcode has not worked well in Northern Ireland either for the same reason - lack of road names and property numbers!)

Whilst I do appreciate off the cuff suggestions but at some point someone actually has to think through the detail - I have been doing that now for nearly 7 years - Loc8 Codes are the result of Mapping/Surveying/Navigation experience, detailed research, several years of field testing and lots of investment to put all the pieces in place!

garydubh

Solair wrote: »

To me not having post codes is a bit like still having operator-switched telephones.

It's the postal equivalent of having to turn a handle and ask for Ballydehob 9.

Antiquated and a bit weird.

You are aboslutely right - postcodes are a 1950's solution to mail sorting - pre GPS/GIS/PC's/Mobile Devices/GSM/GPRS/Broadband/Wifi......

Postcodes are as you say like fixed telephone lines - whereas Loc8 Codes are a modern alternative that leverage off all modern technologies and are felexible enough to allow a code not to be fixed to properties only - you can have a Loc8 Code for your picnic site (or boat or caravan or tent) so that you can have a pizza delivered anywhere and at any time!

Loc8 Codes can also do postcode functions too if required! However, An Post are on record as saying that they do not need postcodes for sorting mail - they use modern methods!

garydubh

iMax wrote: »

All the while ignoring the other points made previously...

all dealt with in detail - read my posts......

Richard

garydubh wrote: »

and the UK postcode has not worked well in Northern Ireland either for the same reason - lack of road names and property numbers!

Every delivery point in NI has a unique address. Nearly every road has a roadsign and all properties either have a number or a name. Some road names in rural Fermanagh are effectively townland names, but they still have a name/number and post code.

garydubh

Richard wrote: »

Every delivery point in NI has a unique address. Nearly every road has a roadsign and all properties either have a number or a name. Some road names in rural Fermanagh are effectively townland names, but they still have a name/number and post code.

The facts are a little different that you suggest it seems: http://sluggerotoole.com/2008/01/11/numbers-in-fermanagh/

To create a UK postcode - individual roads must have a unique designator (rather than a townland name for all roads) and all properties must have a number. Many do not understand that you cannot find a property in the UK without using both postcode and property number (9/10 characters). Where a unique road name does not exist or there is no property number there is nothing unique to identify the property in the PAF (Royal Mail Postal Address file). As a result you cannot find a property with the postcode or address on a navigation device.

and even in Scotland with a well developed postcode there are problems finding addresses:

If we are going to introduce something that a broad range of users can rely on in a robust way for Ireland (not the postman who knows anyhow because he has local knowledge) then we need to examine the detail beneath basic understanding of related matters. Loc8 Code has done that. As Loc8 Code does not need a database - PAF or PAD - once a Loc8 Code is generated there is no need to keep a database up to date - the code will work precisely anyhow.

Don't forget also that UK postcodes and many others have to change regularly and there is a big cost for changing and updating - Loc8 Code never has to change once accurately created in the first place!

bk

AngryLips wrote: »

I don't think postcodes would solve any of those issues, BK

Well if an official government postcode was launched, I'd assume every home in Ireland would be sent a letter with their new post code.

Then if they need to call for an ambulance or taxi, they just give their postcode, the ambulance/taxi driver enters it in his or hers GPS and arrives right at your door.

No need for the driver to call 5 times looking for directions and getting lost, etc.

Italia

I moved to Ireland about 10yrs ago and was astounded that in the 20th/21st century there was still a country that did not have a post code system.

I've read all this thread with great interest and have even generated my Loc8 code.
However, whenever I've tried to navigate to this code using both google maps as well as Nokia Maps I get an error stating that the 'code' is unknown. This would probably be the method that a tourist or stranger would use.

Yet if I insert a bog standard UK or French or Italian post code, I get an instant result. I know that you can upload the code to a Garmin (although, subject to correction, my understanding is that it only works for the newer Garmins), but a lot of people use the built in maps on their phone to get around.

I still find it incredibly difficult, even after 10yrs, to navigate to certain places here in Ireland. Asking for directions and then looking out for pubs and churches (used as identifiers) is not the best, moreso at night and especially when most streets have no names or no visible name plaques.
For example I live near a road called "road to maynooth road"...I kid you not. This is another issue that needs to be sorted out. If I find it difficult, how the heck can one expect someone from (example) Germany to find his way around?

From what I can see the Loc8 system has potential, but if it remains 'locked' to a proprietary system and cannot be used by widely available systems like Google Maps or Nokia Maps, then I think its destined to be limited to a small niche market.
Its just my 2c worth of observation.

garydubh

Italia wrote: »

I've read all this thread with great interest and have even generated my Loc8 code.
However, whenever I've tried to navigate to this code using both google maps as well as Nokia Maps I get an error stating that the 'code' is unknown. This would probably be the method that a tourist or stranger would use.

Yet if I insert a bog standard UK or French or Italian post code, I get an instant result. I know that you can upload the code to a Garmin (although, subject to correction, my understanding is that it only works for the newer Garmins), but a lot of people use the built in maps on their phone to get around.


From what I can see the Loc8 system has potential, but if it remains 'locked' to a proprietary system and cannot be used by widely available systems like Google Maps or Nokia Maps, then I think its destined to be limited to a small niche market.
Its just my 2c worth of observation.

All good - but Loc8 Code has no control over what Google/Nokia support - perhaps you will join us and many others encouraging them to support Loc8 Codes.

In the meantime you can navigate with google, tomtom, navigon and more to come using (whichever you have installed) the point8 App here: http://www.loc8code.com/products Other versions of this come in the new year as stated in an earlier post.

Loc8 Code is not "locked" but Loc8 Code does not develop navigation devices or applications so it needs manufacturers/developers to build it in - so just encourage them along! Garmin has already done this.

By the way you can send a Loc8 Code to any Garmin (even older ones) using the "send to satnav" option here which appears when you put in a valid Loc8 Code: http://www.loc8code.com/maps/find_code8
This will be extended to TomTom in the new year and will have additional functionality added also.

If you just want to see a Loc8 Code on a web map - with more detail and accuracy than Google provides - on OSI and OSNI national mapping - just add it to the Loc8 Code URL - like this www.loc8code.com/W8L-82-4YK.

Finally, watch out for new Loc8 Code functionality with Google maps in the Cash & Carry Kitchens website in the new year.

garydubh

bk wrote: »

Well if an official government postcode was launched, I'd assume every home in Ireland would be sent a letter with their new post code.

Then if they need to call for an ambulance or taxi, they just give their postcode, the ambulance/taxi driver enters it in his or hers GPS and arrives right at your door.

No need for the driver to call 5 times looking for directions and getting lost, etc.

That's the ideal but up to now the spec for the intended National postcode is to only identify the centre of an area containing up to 50 properties - i.e. up to townland level with no property numbers in the case of over 750,000 properties to identify the actual property - so the driver would still have to make those phone calls!

An attempt by Olivia Mitchell to change this by adding the words "precise" and "unambiguous" to the definition of the intended postcode in the related postal services bill passed through the Oireachtas in July last failed. So legally the intended (and 4 years late) Irish postcode is defined as no more than a "locality" - in many cases no better than a townland!

All this contrary to the recommendations of the Joint Oireachtas Committee report on postcodes which both Labour and FG played a big part in last year.

Loc8 Code can be dumbed down to satisfy the spec using the 3 or 6 charcater version of Loc8 Code - but that would defeat the purpose and be of little use to those who really need a precise addressing system!

Richard

garydubh wrote: »

The facts are a little different that you suggest it seems: http://sluggerotoole.com/2008/01/11/numbers-in-fermanagh/

I think the problem is that people don't always use the correct address. It isn't ideal, in Fermanagh, as one "road name" apparently sometimes covers more than one road, but at least each house has a unique identifier. Whether it's used or not is another matter.

The following link to all the roads in Fermanagh and South Tyrone may be useful:

http://www.eoni.org.uk/fermanagh___south_tyrone_street_indexes_09-2.pdf

Solair

garydubh wrote: »

You are aboslutely right - postcodes are a 1950's solution to mail sorting - pre GPS/GIS/PC's/Mobile Devices/GSM/GPRS/Broadband/Wifi......

Postcodes are as you say like fixed telephone lines - whereas Loc8 Codes are a modern alternative that leverage off all modern technologies and are felexible enough to allow a code not to be fixed to properties only - you can have a Loc8 Code for your picnic site (or boat or caravan or tent) so that you can have a pizza delivered anywhere and at any time!

Loc8 Codes can also do postcode functions too if required! However, An Post are on record as saying that they do not need postcodes for sorting mail - they use modern methods!

Garry, in fairness, I do think that we are talking about "PostCodes" in a broader sense than mail sorting codes i.e. actual geolocation codes of some sort. The term "PostCode" has just come to encompass that.

garydubh

Richard wrote: »

I think the problem is that people don't always use the correct address. It isn't ideal, in Fermanagh, as one "road name" apparently sometimes covers more than one road, but at least each house has a unique identifier. Whether it's used or not is another matter.

But this is key to this discussion and the point is that if there is no house number or it is not used then using a BT postcode (or any UK one either) on a satnav/gis/mapping system does not find a property for you and in rural NI this is a big problem. The Mail man may be able to solve the problem through local knowledge but, as clearly indicated in the link that I posted earlier, nobody else can. This also occurs in Scotland, Wales and England outside cities and results in the loss of £300 million approx annually by retailers and logistics companies as well as recurring problems for emergency services such as the example in Scotland I gave earlier.

As a population, in Ireland we are not good with house numbers and the 40% that don't have them will not adopt/use them - same as the NI experience. This was accepted in the early stage of the Irish postcode discussion but a solution was never identified. Consultants reports highlighted this problem but did not come up with a solution - just a "locality" postcode specification of townland resolution and often no less!

This is why Loc8 Codes were designed to work without property numbers and therefore without associated expensive address databases which would have to be loaded to navigation devices, kept up to date and nowadays are an additional expense that satnav manufacturers/software developers/map makers will try avoid incurring! An Post's Geodirectory, the national address database, most likely will form the basis of any national postcode (postcodes will be added) and at present An Post restricts who has access to it and even charges Government agenies/depts in excess of €30,000 per year for using it - no map maker or satnav manufacturer will take on this type of cost.

This is why Garmin selected Loc8 Codes - as well as being robust and fit for purpose - they require no database and no ongoing cost for the user!

As you can see, these are all critical considerations that few are taking time to fully research and understand for Ireland (especially in the light of our neigbours experiences after decades of use);- even after 6 years of official debate, Oireachtas reports, consultants reports and nearly €1 million already spent!

garydubh

Solair wrote: »

Garry, in fairness, I do think that we are talking about "PostCodes" in a broader sense than mail sorting codes i.e. actual geolocation codes of some sort. The term "PostCode" has just come to encompass that.

agreed - but why do PA consulants - the consultants being paid by Government to find a solution for well over a year now - still continue telling people in briefings/meetings that what is planned is for the "post" (meaning mail) and will be designed with sorting mail in mind - and they have been emphatic about this even though An Post is on record as stating that they do not need a mail sorting postcode! And what about the article in the Irish Times on the 4th January which quoted a DCENR briefing document as stating that precise codes would not be adopted!

Quite honestly,there is a lot of misinformation and misconceptions on this subject about and really the decision making should be taken off DCENR who, given the findings of the Moriarity Tribunal, appear to have a less than satisfactory record at this kind of thing!

Wild Bill

HAPPY CHRISTMAS postcoders!

Of all the issues likely to end in a food fight this would be the last I'd have imagined - but you managed it!

Solair

garydubh wrote: »

agreed - but why do PA consulants - the consultants being paid by Government to find a solution for well over a year now - still continue telling people in briefings/meetings that what is planned is for the "post" (meaning mail) and will be designed with sorting mail in mind - and they have been emphatic about this even though An Post is on record as stating that they do not need a mail sorting postcode! And what about the article in the Irish Times on the 4th January which quoted a DCENR briefing document as stating that precise codes would not be adopted!

Quite honestly,there is a lot of misinformation and misconceptions on this subject about and really the decision making should be taken off DCENR who, given the findings of the Moriarity Tribunal, appear to have a less than satisfactory record at this kind of thing!

Well to be fair, the Government always manages to do everything arseways, it's hardly surprising that they'd screw this up too.

I'm sure we'll come up with some utterly daft post code system, probably with 19 digit bilingual codes requiring fadas that will locate your home to the nearest county.

garydubh

garydubh wrote: »

Take a look at what An Post thinks about the Postcode which is officially proposed for Ireland as reported by PA consulting in their report on the matter:


An Post highlighted the following “non-quantifiable” risks during the An Post consultation process. An Post assesses all the risks listed below as being high-probability “and” high impact:

• Decrease Quality of Service

An Post believes that its current quality of service will be impacted during postcodes implementation phase and postcodes transition phase for the following stated reasons:

• • It is likely that the performance of the technical infrastructure (OCR and Video Coding machines) will be impacted for significant period of time with an impact on the mail read rate.
  • Customers’ take-up will significantly impact its operation as it will be a source of error for mail processing and mis-sort. As a result this operational costs (manual sorting) will increase.
• Decrease in Read Rates and discounted mail customers

As presented above, An Post believe that it is likely that the introduction of postcodes will impact the current read-rates. There are two types of impact:

• • Increased manual sorting costs;
  • Increased costs for Discounted Mail Customers (reduced discount) that will probably lead, in a market deregulation context, to a decrease in the number of customers and a decrease in revenue.
• Increase in Stamp Price for USO maintenance activities

An Post stated that the implementation of postcodes and the associated on-going management are a source of additional costs that would probably need to be financed through an increase in stamp price (for regulated services). Again, in a market deregulation context, An Post may see their revenues and market share impacted (depending on the price-elasticity).

• Impact of market competition and market deregulation in 2009

An Post stated that the implementation of postcodes and the associated on-going management would be a source of additional costs that would probably be financed through an increase in service price for non-regulated services. Again, in a market deregulation context, An Post may see their revenues and market share impacted (depending on the price-elasticity).
·An Post is in a very unique position in relation to postcodes. Having already invested in the implementation of a hidden coding system, An Post has been unable to identify any benefit that would arise from the introduction of a national public postcode system. An Post has stated through the stakeholder consultation process that it would incur costs to implement the new coding structure and the associated changes; the transition to a new postcode system may have an impact on the quality of service offered to customers; and customers ability to access ‘machine’ mail discounts may be an issue during transition. An Post has estimated their costs to be in the order of €37m for initial implementation with an annual cost beyond that of €7m. There is clearly a need for a more detailed understanding of these estimates in advance of implementation as, while An Post have been very supportive throughout this project, it is clear that if it is to embrace the introduction of the new system a solution to its costs and other exposures will need to be found. When the An Post estimated costs are included in the net present value, the position over 15 years becomes, i.e. -€83m.
This report is very clearly saying that An Post do not need postcodes and the total cost to the state of a postcode introduction will be €87 million and most definitely not the €15million that we hear DCENR and Ministers putting about.
And in a related Presentation An Post's Commercial Director Derek Kickham stated:

"PostCodes are the application of 1960’s technology to a 21st Century Problem"

and Solair see above, quoted by me before, regarding the consequences of the truth you speak!

garydubh

So given that any National postcode system will most likley need to use the Geodirectory as the basis, and given that PA Consulting have stated that An Post will be paid €7 million per year for its use by the license holder over 15 years - its no wonder that liberalisation of the Postal market, which was completed in July last, did not include the GeoDirectory and most likely why certain potential competitors of AN Post are still denied access to the GeoDirectory.

So does this not mean that the actual cost of the illconceived national postcodes is really going to be no less than €105 million?

You would expect that you would be getting more than a second hand 50 year old UK mail sorting postcode - but without the important bits - for that kind of money!!!!

Solair

What I don't understand is why An Post is even getting involved if it's so totally opposed to the idea of any kind of geolocation codes. They should be told to take a hike in that case.

Geolocation codes / "Post Codes" could quite easily be rolled out and managed by Comreg, without any An Post involvement at all.

Comreg already manages the telephone numbering plan and does not refer to eircom every time it wants to reorganise area codes. Why can't it do the same for postal codes.

They are necessary national infrastructure for finding things and are required by lots of other companies and individuals other than the semi-state body that runs our quaint 19th century postal service.

From what I can see, An Post simply does not want post codes because that suits it to ensure that it retains large barriers to entry on the postal market and small packages market as it relies on staff knowledge on local routes to know where addresses are.

If An Post does not want to use post codes, that's their problem. I don't really see why the entire logistics industry, mapping, utilities, and individual consumers should be held up by a backwards-looking semi-state company that's determined to ensure that nobody can find anything ever without consulting their local postman/woman.

On a related issue: I think the use of the term "postcode" is confusing the debate entirely. We need a new term for them as it's causing many people, including the media and TDs etc to make the assumption that these are something to do with the post office.

A term like "Place Location Code" or "Geolocation Code" would be far more useful for the Department of the Environment to use to avoid confusion.

The US term "ZIP Code" at least implies that it might have uses other than for the Post Office.

We could use a term like "Áit Code" or "sprioc" (landmark)

garydubh

Solair wrote: »

What I don't understand is why An Post is even getting involved if it's so totally opposed to the idea of any kind of geolocation codes. They should be told to take a hike in that case.

Geolocation codes / "Post Codes" could quite easily be rolled out and managed by Comreg, without any An Post involvement at all.

Comreg already manages the telephone numbering plan and does not refer to eircom every time it wants to reorganise area codes. Why can't it do the same for postal codes.

They are necessary national infrastructure for finding things and are required by lots of other companies and individuals other than the semi-state body that runs our quaint 19th century postal service.

From what I can see, An Post simply does not want post codes because that suits it to ensure that it retains large barriers to entry on the postal market and small packages market as it relies on staff knowledge on local routes to know where addresses are.

If An Post does not want to use post codes, that's their problem. I don't really see why the entire logistics industry, mapping, utilities, and individual consumers should be held up by a backwards-looking semi-state company that's determined to ensure that nobody can find anything ever without consulting their local postman/woman.

On a related issue: I think the use of the term "postcode" is confusing the debate entirely. We need a new term for them as it's causing many people, including the media and TDs etc to make the assumption that these are something to do with the post office.

A term like "Place Location Code" or "Geolocation Code" would be far more useful for the Department of the Environment to use to avoid confusion.

The US term "ZIP Code" at least implies that it might have uses other than for the Post Office.

We could use a term like "Áit Code" or "sprioc" (landmark)

All true - but politics is a funny thing!!!

I use the terms "Digital Addressing" or "Precise Addressing" - as that is what Loc8 Codes are.

Solair

garydubh wrote: »

All true - but politics is a funny thing!!!

I use the terms "Digital Addressing" or "Precise Addressing" - as that is what Loc8 Codes are.

I'm not sure about politics, but the Irish Civil Service is certainly a funny thing!

SPDUB

Solair wrote: »

What I don't understand is why An Post is even getting involved if it's so totally opposed to the idea of any kind of geolocation codes. They should be told to take a hike in that case.

Because they have been told to be involved by the Government .And the ones who could tell them to take a hike are the Government .

Comreg already manages the telephone numbering plan and does not refer to eircom every time it wants to reorganise area codes. Why can't it do the same for postal codes.

The local delivery office level equivalent in Eircom though is left to Eircom eg you can still tell where somebody lives with a few exceptions nowadays by the first 3 digits of their phone number if they are an Eircom customer .

I don't really see why the entire logistics industry, mapping, utilities, and individual consumers should be held up by a backwards-looking semi-state company that's determined to ensure that nobody can find anything ever without consulting their local postman/woman.

Actually what's holding up most of those users is the OSI and the fees it charges for use of their maps and in some cases obligatory use of their maps .

On a related issue: I think the use of the term "postcode" is confusing the debate entirely.

Maybe but you need organisations like An Post to encourage their take up and especially use .There's no point issuing them if you only occasionally use them and so forget them .

Requiring them on letters delivered by An Post or whoever will make people think of them as "Postcodes" anyway

Solair

To be honest, I am really past caring what the problem is. This is something that needs to be implemented. It's a complete and utter joke, much like the roll out of the integrated ticketing system in Dublin, that we do not have some kind of codes for geographical locations.

It's always the same in this country, any time there's something that needs to be rolled out, there are all sorts of reasons dreamt up as to why it cannot be done.

A lot of our infrastructural issues have nothing to do with lack of funds, rather to do with a lack of an ability to see a project through to completion.

garydubh

SPDUB wrote: »

The local delivery office level equivalent in Eircom though is left to Eircom eg you can still tell where somebody lives with a few exceptions nowadays by the first 3 digits of their phone number if they are an Eircom customer .




Actually what's holding up most of those users is the OSI and the fees it charges for use of their maps and in some cases obligatory use of their maps .



Requiring them on letters delivered by An Post or whoever will make people think of them as "Postcodes" anyway

1. 3 digits indicates an area only and not exactly where someone lives.
2. OSI is not really involved in the mapping used by Logs industry - so not really their issue - mapping with attributed road info needed for routing solutions is supplied by other specialised organisations - Navteq etc.
3. This is not the 1960's and telling folk that they will have to put a postcode on a letter to get it delivered will not really wash - most people are alreday aware that this can be achieved without a postcode. However maybe the bulk mail people will do it to make their job easier alright!

Solair

SPDUB wrote: »

The local delivery office level equivalent in Eircom though is left to Eircom eg you can still tell where somebody lives with a few exceptions nowadays by the first 3 digits of their phone number if they are an Eircom customer .

Actually it isn't. Comreg simply allocates block of numbers to licensed operators and they can do with them whatever they like.

It just so happens that for historical and practical reasons, it's normal to assign a block of numbers to a particular telephone exchange. However, those numbers can move from exchange to exchange if someone moves premises in the same area, they could be ported to a VoIP provider, a cable phone service etc etc.

As technology has changed, there's no longer any particular reason why an exchange has to have exclusive numbering blocks. Phone networks are intelligent and routing's done dynamically and is not dependent on the structure of the dialed digits.

Officially speaking, the first 3 digits of a phone number are meaningless. It's just a historical remnant of a different era of technology that they happen to still contain some geographical meaning.

The only bit that actually has any guaranteed geographic meaning is the bit that is controlled by Comreg i.e. the area code. E.g. 021 for Cork etc.

So, I think my point about Comreg being an ideal agency to work out the issuing post codes would remain perfectly valid

SPDUB

Solair wrote: »

However, those numbers can move from exchange to exchange if someone moves premises in the same area, they could be ported to a VoIP provider, a cable phone service etc etc.

Hence the use of the phrase "with some exceptions"

As technology has changed, there's no longer any particular reason why an exchange has to have exclusive numbering blocks. Phone networks are intelligent and routing's done dynamically and is not dependent on the structure of the dialed digits.

This is true but it also true that blocks of numbers are still used that way

So, I think my point about Comreg being an ideal agency to work out the issuing post codes would remain perfectly valid

To deny charges of anti competitive behaviour An Post probably wouldn't want to be in charge anyway

This is not the 1960's and telling folk that they will have to put a postcode on a letter to get it delivered will not really wash

I was more thinking of post without a "postcode" in the long term not having next day delivery status

garydubh

SPDUB wrote: »

To deny charges of anti competitive behaviour An Post probably wouldn't want to be in charge anyway

Indeed you would imagine so - but they are indeed seeking to be in charge!

Solair

garydubh wrote: »

Indeed you would imagine so - but they are indeed seeking to be in charge!

That would be an absolute conflict of interest given the modern situation where there are umpteen users of such a service. I think the telephone network's a perfect analogy. Eircom/Meteor does not control the allocation of telephone numbers, nor are they its property, rather they're a national resource controlled by Comreg.

Any geolocation service / postal code system should be similarly administered by a neutral regulation agency.

Comreg's already charged with regulation of the postal system.