National Postcodes to be introduced

swampgas

MBSnr wrote: »

You edited after I quoted. I agree Eircode makes sense in this instance. My question is how would it have stopped the exact same thing happening? My understanding is that An Post do not have devices in their vehicles capable of taking a code to a mapped location. So if Eircodes appeared tomorrow on all the driver reg/lic systems, the same failed delivery issue could occur right?

If this is true (and it probably is) the solution is for An post to issue their staff with devices that can map an eircode to a mapped location.

Maybe it will take a few cases like this, where the courts need to ensure correct delivery of mail, for An Post to implement whatever is needed.

(This is all speculation (by me) of course ...)

MBSnr

swampgas wrote: »

If this is true (and it probably is) the solution is for An post to issue their staff with devices that can map an eircode to a mapped location.

Maybe it will take a few cases like this, where the courts need to ensure correct delivery of mail, for An Post to implement whatever is needed.

(This is all speculation (by me) of course ...)

Exactly - this was my point before the defenders jumped on any criticism... Changing the backbend to support Eircodes is great but at the front delivery end it makes no odds at present. You can tie a vehicle to a registered owner at a mapped location via the Eircode. However presenting the correct summons to the correct house will remain the issue.
Being as the summons is sent by An Post then talking about other postal carriers is irrelevant...

ukoda

MBSnr wrote: »

But who delivers the summons? If it's An Post, who aren't using them by all accounts, how does this help ensure it gets to the correct house?

Summons are issued by gardai, they call to the house to serve the notice

a65b2cd

MBSnr wrote: »

Right....Can the local postie correctly identify the house based on the Eircode only

The more Eircode is used the greater the incentive for An Post to invest in providing their delivery staff with the means to use Eircodes to navigate to the correct address.

In the interim, the postman or postwoman can use the Eircode in a number of less efficient ways. For example, he/she could ask the householder if it is their Eircode. The postman may have another letter with the same Eircode from the cousin in Boston which identifies the correct house. There may be a means in the sorting office of clarifying which house has that Eircode e.g. Paddy Joe Murphy's old place. In time, Eircode will win just wish Capita would do more to shorten that time period!

MBSnr

ukoda wrote: »

Summons are issued by gardai, they call to the house to serve the notice

Bit pedantic there (with nothing to do with An Post and Eircodes) but OK - the article got it wrong and I quoted from it as I have never received a summons.

Replace all my quotes of 'summons' with 'speeding fine' and we're talking about An Post again.

swampgas

MBSnr wrote: »

Changing the backbend to support Eircodes is great but at the front delivery end it makes no odds at present. You can tie a vehicle to a registered owner at a mapped location via the Eircode. However presenting the correct summons to the correct house will remain the issue.
Being as the summons is sent by An Post then talking about other postal carriers is irrelevant...

You can't fix everything in one go (well not in Ireland anyway).

The existence of Eircode means that anyone - An Post or not - can find an address if they need to. There is no excuse for failure to deliver to the correct address now, when an Eircode is used, because the information is there to be accessed.

How An Post use Eircode is up to them, but ultimately they must find a way to use them if the address is otherwise ambiguous.

Mountainsandh

oscarBravo wrote: »

You're assuming that your personal preference for what you consider your address is "accurate". If you're going to talk about accuracy in Irish addressing, you have to have canonical addresses, and the closest we've got to those is Geodirectory.

Condescending and erroneous stance : very easy to consult Cassini's historical maps online (nms/osi) and confirm an address is as it has historically been. In my case at least Eircode are distorting historical records. Census records are another easy way to confirm address online.

ukoda

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Condescending and erroneous stance : very easy to consult Cassini's historical maps online (nms/osi) and confirm an address is as it has historically been. In my case at least Eircode are distorting historical records. Census records are another easy way to confirm address online.

If all you have is "ballinsmall town, cork"
How can you confirm online that you're going to the right house when 20 houses could have the exact same address? You need a unique identifier to know the difference between the houses and which one you actually want to go to. That's what eircode is for.

plodder

Actually, most summonses are delivered by post, and not even registered post at that.

Mountainsandh

ukoda wrote: »

If all you have is "ballinsmall town, cork"
How can you confirm online that you're going to the right house when 20 houses could have the exact same address? You need a unique identifier to know the difference between the houses and which one you actually want to go to. That's what eircode is for.

That's not my point, I was simply rectifying the point that addresses people use are a matter of "preference " on the user 's part.
Historical records are very easy to access online. Rather than find suitable alternatives Eircode redefines customers' addresses for convenience of postal use.

I don't mind too much if I can still use my address + Eircode, but i can't suffer the hypocritical denial.

LordSutch

Bray Head wrote: »

Nope. In Bray, numbers tend to start with 01286 or 01282.

I think your point is somewhat undermined by your imperfect recall on this!

Sadly your point is also imperfect as you have omitted the spaces in the codes! ...and spaces (in the right place) can be very important too.

Hence 01 286 **** or 01 276 **** or closer to Shankill 01 282 ****
The 01 is followed by three digits (area code) then a space, followed by four digits.

Not sure we could tie-in phone number "area" codes to post codes though?

oscarBravo

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Condescending and erroneous stance : very easy to consult Cassini's historical maps online (nms/osi) and confirm an address is as it has historically been. In my case at least Eircode are distorting historical records. Census records are another easy way to confirm address online.

There's nothing condescending or erroneous in pointing out that we don't, in fact, have canonical addresses in this country.

The argument was that you have a right to have accurate data stored about you. My point is that "accuracy" is a concept that depends on there being a canonical value to which you can point, and say "your data is wrong". If a database has my date of birth wrong, I have a right to have it corrected. If a database has my address in a different format to that which I normally use, I have no compelling argument that my normal usage is "accurate".

Mountainsandh wrote: »

That's not my point, I was simply rectifying the point that addresses people use are a matter of "preference " on the user 's part.

You weren't "rectifying" it, you were arguing with it.

If you can point to precedent that indicates that historical records are accepted as canonical addresses, I'd be interested in seeing it.

Historical records are very easy to access online. Rather than find suitable alternatives Eircode redefines customers' addresses for convenience of postal use.

Eircode doesn't redefine addresses. The Eircode database contains addresses copied from the Geodirectory.

Apparently the message that "your address doesn't change" is far too complicated to sink in for some people.

I don't mind too much if I can still use my address + Eircode, but i can't suffer the hypocritical denial.

Denial of what? Hypocritical how?

Mountainsandh

Denial : Eircode >>> your address does not change.
>>> customer checks Eircode : different address.


The Census database uses District Electoral Divisions, therefore the records that Geodirectory (which looks to me like a modern commercial entity ?) use are the same. Or are supposed to be.

Somehow along the way, Eircode has made changes to my address, which appears one way in DEDs on Census records, and other historical records, and another for the sake of postal services. In fact, it's not so much the address but the county boundary that is changed for the sake of commercial use.

I think historical records are important, and commercial interests should not take over really.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/help/about19011911census.html#whatcontain

ukoda

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Denial : Eircode >>> your address does not change.
>>> customer checks Eircode : different address.


The Census database uses District Electoral Divisions, therefore the records that Geodirectory (which looks to me like a modern commercial entity ?) use are the same. Or are supposed to be.

Somehow along the way, Eircode has made changes to my address, which appears one way in DEDs on Census records, and other historical records, and another for the sake of postal services. In fact, it's not so much the address but the county boundary that is changed for the sake of commercial use.

I think historical records are important, and commercial interests should not take over really.

You're still not getting it, eircode uses geodirectory for its addresses, it didn't change your address, it took your predefined address (by An Post) and put a code on to the end of it. If you had looked up geodirectory a year ago your address would have been written like that in its database before eircode was introduced, but you'd no reason to look it up, all eircode did was alert you to the fact that your postal address isn't what you thought it was. It didn't change it.

You can write your address anyway you want to write it and just put eircode at the end of it.

Mountainsandh

ukoda wrote: »

You're still not getting it, eircode uses geodirectory for its addresses, it didn't change your address, it took your predefined address (by An Post) and put a code on to the end of it. If you had looked up geodirectory a year ago your address would have been written like that in its database before eircode was introduced, but you'd no reason to look it up, all eircode did was alert you to the fact that your postal address isn't what you thought it was. It didn't change it.

You can write your address anyway you want to write it and just put eircode at the end of it.

I'm getting that Ukoda, I finished my post quickly and did not explain why I find it hypocritical. I'm interested in history. It seems obvious to me that within generations, the addresses Eircode is claiming are unchanged will of course be changed.
The soothing noises right now are for my generation, and older (I'm in my 40s). Once addresses are publicized as per Eircode, and once Eircode becomes widely used, the use of addresses as published by Eircode will take over. Once official and other well established commercial agencies take on Eircodes, they will obviously take on the addresses associated. For example if I give the motor tax office my Eircode, I believe the address Eircode links to is the one most likely to be used in the future, rather than the "paper" one I have always given.

Younger generations are likely to work along with that, and addresses will indeed have been altered.

That An Post used their postal addresses in a non public way was not at all intrusive, and rightfully did not alter "historical"/"folk" addresses. The fact that Eircode are publishing these addresses, and then saying "ah sure, never mind them all the same" is hypocritical.

ukoda

Mountainsandh wrote: »

I'm getting that Ukoda, I finished my post quickly and did not explain why I find it hypocritical. I'm interested in history. It seems obvious to me that within generations, the addresses Eircode is claiming are unchanged will of course be changed.
The soothing noises right now are for my generation, and older (I'm in my 40s). Once addresses are publicized as per Eircode, and once Eircode becomes widely used, the use of addresses as published by Eircode will take over. Once official and other well established commercial agencies take on Eircodes, they will obviously take on the addresses associated. For example if I give the motor tax office my Eircode, I believe the address Eircode links to is the one most likely to be used in the future, rather than the "paper" one I have always given.

Younger generations are likely to work along with and addresses will indeed have been altered.

I get what you're saying, but when you word it as "eircode is changing my address" that is factually incorrect, what infact you're saying, if I understand you correctly, is that the introduction of eircode may lead to wider use of the An Post defined 'postal' address, that may not necessarily be the same as the 'geographical' address that it's historallcaly known as locally.

There's a big difference between those 2 things, the only point I'm making is that eircode have no authority to change your address, they just pull the address from a pre-existing database of addresses.

Your gripe is that that database is based on postal addresses for the purposes of delivering mail and may not reflect the historical address.

Mountainsandh

ukoda wrote: »

I get what you're saying, but when you word it as "eircode is changing my address" that is factually incorrect, what infact you're saying, if I understand you correctly, is that the introduction of eircode may lead to wider use of the An Post defined 'postal' address, that may not necessarily be the same as the 'geographical' address that it's historallcaly known as locally.

There's a big difference between those 2 things, the only point I'm making is that eircode have no authority to change your address, they just pull the address from a pre-existing database of addresses.

Your gripe is that that database is based on postal addresses for the purposes of delivering mail and may not reflect the historical address.

Ok, so you get the way I'm looking at this, thanks.

So now let's look at the rationale for Eircode again :

Eircode, Ireland’s postcode system launched in July 2015. Eircode enables people and businesses to find every address in Ireland, helping you to find life easier.

Over 35% of addresses in Ireland share their address with at least one other property, making it difficult for those delivering goods and services to accurately identify the location of an address. Eircode has been designed specifically to overcome this problem. Unlike other countries where postcodes define a cluster or group of addresses, a unique Eircode is assigned to each residential and business address.

Having an Eircode, removes the hassle and mistakes out of finding addresses in Ireland.

and reconcile that with :

Addresses aren’t being changed or replaced, all you will need to do is to simply add the Eircode to the end of your current address.

It's nonsensical when you think about it.

They are claiming that only the number will be used, when really, the number is intended to become the primary way to identify an address.

Of course in time Eircode addresses will replace historical/folk addresses. It is completely, in your face, glaringly obvious. Use of Eircode addresses is encouraged for all national entities, and businesses. Of course the address on Eircode's database is going to take over.

But for now, we're welcome to use our old address, lest we should be angered.

I don't think it's right to bring about change in that (underhanded) manner.

It is also going to cause clashes and confusion when people realize the implications of being now recorded as living in another county, for some, like me, in that situation.

edit : do you know what, just re-reading that and here's what I'm thinking : if we had the option to change our "official" Eircode address AFTER the unique numeric identifier has been assigned, that would ensure nobody would be left frustrated and confused. The anchor would then be the number, and the recorded address less important geographically, but historically and socially correct. People who are happy with Eircode address would not need to change it.

In my situation, I will reiterate that Electoral Divisions, as per the Census, which are used for official statistics, and are according to the other poster used by Geodirectory (and according to their website), have me in one county, while Eircode has me in another.
So Eircode is either not using Geodirectory, or it amends it when needed for postal services.

Voting takes place in and for the Electoral Divisions county of course, too.

You can write your address anyway you want to write it and just put eircode at the end of it.

This is the approach that I have taken to the "Post Town" in a different county issue, so I use the (location) address and then the postcode.
Letters have started to arrive with the address in this format.

Mountainsandh

Deleted User wrote: »

This is the approach that I have taken to the "Post Town" in a different county issue, so I use the (location) address and then the postcode.
Letters have started to arrive with the address in this format.

Mine have arrived with the Eircode like that too, which is great, except a lot of services/agencies have not caught up yet, Eircodes cannot be added on their side, and so some of my post is still delayed with wrong address stickers.

Interestingly not all post comes in with the wrong address sticker, so it must be at individual level that the problem lies, regardless of how automated the system is .

dolanbaker is your Eircode address (online record) in the postal county too ?

swampgas

Mountainsandh wrote: »

edit : do you know what, just re-reading that and here's what I'm thinking : if we had the option to change our "official" Eircode address AFTER the unique numeric identifier has been assigned, that would ensure nobody would be left frustrated and confused. The anchor would then be the number, and the recorded address less important geographically, but historically and socially correct. People who are happy with Eircode address would not need to change it.

It's an interesting thought. Now that there is a unique identifier (the eircode) it should be possible to change the descriptive part of the address any way we like - for example if boundary changes to counties, baronies or townlands were needed. Or a completely new set of boundaries could be overlaid onto the country, and every property could be allocated to a new logical zone in a database.

I imagine it's what a lot of commercial or utility companies will do anyway - I can't imagine that the ESB care how post is routed when they are mapping the electricity distribution network.

Mountainsandh

Mountainsandh wrote: »

.

dolanbaker is your Eircode address (online record) in the postal county too ?

Yes, it references to my postal address I.e. the post town in the next county.

But that is not the address I use which is townland, nearest town, county as opposed to townland nearest town(post town), another county.

Mountainsandh

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, it references to my postal address I.e. the post town in the next county.

But that is not the address I use which is townland, nearest town, county as opposed to townland nearest town(post town), another county.

For now

Jakey Rolling

MBSnr wrote: »

How is the postie looking up Eircode? Not with a Sat Nav or Google maps. Do they use their own smart phone? I fail to see how they would distinguish between multiple named individuals in a townland with the code on the letter.

If those individuals wish to have their mail delivered correctly and in a timely manner, then mark their Eircode on their letterbox - simple!

Unless of course it suits them to maintain this ambiguity?

I just went on to complete an on-line order and the postcode field was mandatory for an Irish address, first time that I had seen that.
Not that the site was set up to reverse lookup the address from the postcode but clearly a sign of things to come.

Postcode haters may soon be shut out of using on-line services.

I just went on to complete an on-line order and the postcode field was mandatory for an Irish address, first time that I had seen that.
Not that the site was set up to reverse lookup the address from the postcode but clearly a sign of things to come.

Postcode haters may soon be shut out of using on-line services.

Calina

Postcodes are regularly mandatory for Irish addresses. That's why irish people gave been using strings of zeroes for years.

Calina

Calina wrote: »

Postcodes are regularly mandatory for Irish addresses. That's why irish people gave been using strings of zeroes for years.

True, but this site was the first to change the word postcode to eircode when you changed the country name.

moyners

[Deleted User] wrote: »

True, but this site was the first to change the word postcode to eircode when you changed the country name.

What was the site? I think I saw the same on the one4all gift card site but I don't think it was mandatory as far as I can remember.

moyners

I've noticed a considerable change in tone from the FTAI on twitter, especially since the GIS conference a few weeks back.

https://twitter.com/newsfromftai/status/654940060257751040

FishOnABike

Calina wrote: »

Postcodes are regularly mandatory for Irish addresses. That's why irish people gave been using strings of zeroes for years.

If asked for the zipcode I usually put YKK