National Postcodes to be introduced

something to say

iantheteacher wrote: »

Not selling anything - just proposing the OpenPostcode (http://tinyurl.com/openpostcode) - which is free and opensource. Made me a nice wee presentation to show it in action. It's just plain simple to calculate - even have a spreadsheet in action to show the conversions.

https://docs.google.com/presentation/pub?id=1sEP5E9WKuOpUKT2U2SVP9UcznYJeRVUNceARRBYvkt0&start=false&loop=false&delayms=3000#slide=id.g1aa9789_0_0

Feedback welcome.

Was just checking out your code and doesnt seem to be as accurate as you say.
Baily Helipad http://dl.dropbox.com/u/483977/openpostcode/google.html/?opc=JW9C-6VG-Y is in the sea!

St Johns Light house in Donegal http://dl.dropbox.com/u/483977/openpostcode/google.html/?opc=8F7W-QC9-C seems to be a bit off aswell.

While its great to see people using initaitive and coming up with codes. This one would be of no use to me, have a garmin satnav which already take loc8 codes and all the drivers I have had making deliveries in recent times have used Garmin satnavs too.
Then there is the case of loads of businesses using loc8 codes already too. For Instance, going to a wedding Fair in westwood house hotel in galway next weekend, first thing i spotted was the loc8 code at bottom of web page.
What Im trying to say is I for one, am using loc8 codes already, so are a hell of alot of other people, and more importantly businesses. Im not going to change from using codes that are more accurate and compatible with my satnav and on my iphone to one that I cant use with my satnav.

All satnav directions need to be used with a bit of common sense! Don't just turn left exactly when it says so, you could end up driving off a cliff!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HfejKMYyzQ

L1011

Solair wrote: »

I don't think they're 'illegal' just 'unofficial'

They had no planning permission, ergo illegal signage.

thirty-six dragons

That is not an accurate assessment of the code. The codes you selected to "check out" were demonstration conversions of coordinates provided by IrishLights; and to demonstrate the ease of conversion. In fact the code very accurately represents the coordinates as given by IrishLights - perhaps it is Google Maps which is incorrect. Regardless the code's purpose is to efficiently encode location information - which it does - up to the user of the algorithm to have the correct location to start with.

I find this unscientific attack just so silly. It smacks of real desperation from someone.

No one in their right minds would imagine that under the heading "test locations" and clearly documenting that is was a conversion of IrishLights data ("To demonstrate the ease of conversion and publication of OpenPostcodes we have a couple of examples here") that I was recommending anyone use the data to do a blind parachute jump onto a lighthouse. However if you bothered to check the original coordinates provided by IrishLights you would see that they are exactly where my algorithm puts them. Even more proof of how well the algorithm works - and remember this was calculated using a very simple spreadsheet automatically and cost nothing and is still far more accurate than either Loc8code and others.

Baily Helipad - IrishLights Coordinates
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=53.3616666666667,-6.05366666666667&hl=en&ll=53.362007,-6.05366&spn=0.002356,0.006899&sll=52.24728,-8.481646&sspn=0.009669,0.027595&t=h&z=17

St. John's Lighthouse Donegal - IrishLights Coordinates
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=54.5693666666667,-8.46095&hl=en&ll=54.569375,-8.460932&spn=0.004578,0.013797&sll=53.3625,-6.054025&sspn=0.002356,0.006899&t=h&z=16

Good luck with your Garmin - I have one too. I love it. It has nothing to do with the OpenPostcode algorithm.

The OpenPostcode is provably MORE ACCURATE than Loc8code - personal choices of navigation aid does not change maths or the fact that I wish the government to adopt a postcode which is free and open to everyone to use and convert and has the ability to provide location data in databases and spreadsheets for all manner of spatial and service planning. As a proof of concept it shows that the government doesn't have to pay any Garmins or Loc8codes or anyone to create a postcode. It doesn't have to be exactly the same as the OpenPostcode presentation - a statutory postcode would probably not use the entire length of the code and stay at an area level. Personal use might use the complete code.

For anyone who wants to examine the real maths of the algorithm and do a real test of its accuracy and surprising simplicity (and freedom!) then head to http://tinyurl.com/openpostcode

something to say wrote: »

Was just checking out your code and doesnt seem to be as accurate as you say.
Baily Helipad http://dl.dropbox.com/u/483977/openpostcode/google.html/?opc=JW9C-6VG-Y is in the sea!

St Johns Light house in Donegal http://dl.dropbox.com/u/483977/openpostcode/google.html/?opc=8F7W-QC9-C seems to be a bit off aswell.

BrianD

Personally, while I think Postcodes would be useful, I'm not sure if the taxpayer is the real beneficiary.

I don't believe this malarky about people with similar names living in the same locality. Other countries have the same issues.

One of the big problems here is that a) Irish people have a tendency to use directions instead of addresses and b) people who relike to relocate themselves into neighbouring locales. One other issue has been that for some reason An Post and/or local authorities don't seem to have taken much of a lead in street/road naming and numbering.

Everybody in Ireland should be able to get their address down to three lines

road/street
Townland
County

I hope they get this done asap. I get little notes on my mail from An Post asking me to write my address as

VILLAGE
TOWNLAND
Ballinasloe
Galway

Instead of

VILLAGE
TOWNLAND
Galway

I am in the process of updating my address on bills etc to reflect this but this makes no sense to me. I am closer to Galway City than I am to Balliasloe

+1 for any damn postcode at this stage. Dont give a toss if its open, closed, 4 characters or 24 characters, just get it done!

ManAboutCouch

BrianD wrote: »

I don't believe this malarky about people with similar names living in the same locality. Other countries have the same issues.

It's established fact - approximately 35% of Irish addresses are not unique. Other countries have postcodes and street addresses, they don't use their equivalent of townlands as a basis for addressing.

BrianD wrote: »

One of the big problems here is that a) Irish people have a tendency to use directions instead of addresses and b) people who relike to relocate themselves into neighbouring locales. One other issue has been that for some reason An Post and/or local authorities don't seem to have taken much of a lead in street/road naming and numbering.

Everybody in Ireland should be able to get their address down to three lines

road/street
Townland
County

Most roads in rural areas don't have names, hence the use of directions etc. as part of an unofficial address. So called 'vanity addresses' are a big problem too. There are ways and means around this, GeoDirectory and services built on top of it like AutoAddress* are one solution.

(* Disclosure: I work for the company behind AutoAddress)

BrianD

ManAboutCouch wrote: »

It's established fact - approximately 35% of Irish addresses are not unique. Other countries have postcodes and street addresses, they don't use their equivalent of townlands as a basis for addressing.

I have no doubt that they currently are but they shouldn't be and that can be resolved. Unless they leave in the same house, they are unique locations.

Most roads in rural areas don't have names, hence the use of directions etc. as part of an unofficial address. So called 'vanity addresses' are a big problem too. There are ways and means around this, GeoDirectory and services built on top of it like AutoAddress* are one solution.

(* Disclosure: I work for the company behind AutoAddress)

Most rural roads don't have names but are namable. Every road is uniquely identifyable. Meath CC, for example, seem to giving almost every road a name plate with a number on it. No reason why this couldn't be a name (and a number) but nobody has taken a lead on it. Agreed on the vanity address.

yuloni

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elhal

Personally I hope we adopt a postcode ASAP. Delivery companies can never find my house! Since Ive started putting my postcodes on things have seen a huge difference.

Tax payers will benefit hugely, I reckon, if we take one on and use it in everyday life.

elhal

BrianD wrote: »

Personally, while I think Postcodes would be useful, I'm not sure if the taxpayer is the real beneficiary.

I don't believe this malarky about people with similar names living in the same locality. Other countries have the same issues.


Other countires have some sort of postal code to go with these similar place names..... Wouldnt one code, for one house be the simplest option?

Solair

This is the usual problem with this state, mountains are made out of molehills on this kind of project.

elhal

Solair wrote: »

This is the usual problem with this state, mountains are made out of molehills on this kind of project.

Exactly, not a big deal to just start using them but would make a huge difference having them.

Scartbeg

I received a postcard from DHL at Christmas, they couldn't find the house (allegedly), and apparently the post office (1/2 mile down the road) couldn't direct them either. More likely they were very busy and couldn't be bothered asking around to find us.

Anyhow I called the Shannon depot, and offered to give them my Loc8 code, Lat Long, whatever their drivers would prefer in order to help them deliver to me more efficiently.

The nice lady told that me that such info wouldn't be of any use as their drivers "don't use that sort of thing". I must ask a driver next time I see them if this is the case - I can't believe they don't use SatNavs. Surely even an approximate lat/lon would be better than nothing?

elhal

Sure if they have a satnav then they can use the loc8 codes...... I think fastways use them????

Scartbeg

elhal wrote: »

Sure if they have a satnav then they can use the loc8 codes...... I think fastways use them????

Never heard of Fastways, the only couriers I've had deliveries from are DHL, UPS or DPD.

I'm all in favour of location based "postcodes". I can't understand why anyone would want to rely on vague/ambiguous directions for important deliveries or emergencies. Also, I'm currently building a house and it's handy that I don't need to wait for 6 months for some central database to be updated so that people can find me.

Have gone off the Loc8 codes since they changed from PONC - the format is too cumbersome with the mandatory checksum and I find it non-intuitive how you truncate the code to represent a more general location. I prefer the way the OpenPostcode is structured in this regard - simply drop characters from the end and the square being defined becomes larger. For my own house, a 4 digit code will suffice to pinpoint the property (whereas with Loc8 I still need 6 chars).

In any case, it looks like we'll be waiting another 4 years until the government decide on some half-baked compromise. Must away and lobby my local TD (he may actually be interested as he sat on the committee that reviewed this 2 years ago)

elhal

I think you can drop characters with loc8 too and opens up to a larger area.


http://www.myloc8ion.com/about/what-is-loc8-code

Scartbeg

elhal wrote: »

I think you can drop characters with loc8 too and opens up to a larger area.


http://www.myloc8ion.com/about/what-is-loc8-code

That confirms what I said - you have to drop the characters from the middle of the Loc8 code. That still leaves me with 6 chars (including mandatory checksum) to uniquely define my property. I only need 4 chars with OpenPostcode and I simply remove characters sequentially from the end of the code to increase the defined area. As an end user I just find the latter more intuitive.

elhal

Ahhhhh! I see what your wanting now. Personally prefer the more precise, and being able to use it right now with the satnav! Personal preference I guess.

Scartbeg

elhal wrote: »

Ahhhhh! I see what your wanting now. Personally prefer the more precise, and being able to use it right now with the satnav! Personal preference I guess.

My understanding is that either code is accurate to better than 6m if the full number of characters is used. Can't imagine you need to be more precise than that to locate a property? (although I do have a brochure from a company in Birr that gives their lat/lon to 13 decimal places, that's about 10 nanometres!)

elhal

I was referring to removing characters when I was talking about more precise! Either way, one I can use with my satnav and one I cant so Ill stick with the one I can use right now and other services and business use right now.

L1011

Condi wrote: »

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Its not parishes, thankfully our postal system isn't tied in to the catholic church... its effectively the sorting offices. Most small towns in east Donegal use Letterkenny as the last line of their address, as do the islands; think its Dungloe in north west Donegal.

thirty-six dragons

elhal wrote: »

Ahhhhh! I see what your wanting now. Personally prefer the more precise, and being able to use it right now with the satnav! Personal preference I guess.

I have to interject - the OpenPostcode is mathematically more precise. This is a fact of maths - not open to argument - unless someone would like to propose a mathematical proof.

http://sites.google.com/site/openpostcode/calculations/precision

yuloni

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Where I live the addressing structure is
Townland
local post office
main post office ( in the next county)
country

yuloni

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antoinolachtnai

Condi wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

There are civil parishes as well as church parishes. A civil parish is made up of a number of town lands. They are not of much relevance anymore.

A lot of that stuff with principal towns like Letterkenny and towns across the county boundary has now been eliminated from An Post's addressing. This rarely occurs anymore. Maybe someone has an example of one that's still in existence? But mostly they have been revised out.

SpannerMonkey

its an absolute disgrace how long this is taking to introduce:mad:
here is the latest details of poscodes for ireland


http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Communications/Postal/Postcodes.htm

Solair

It's turning into one of those National Children's Hospital type type sagas.

thirty-six dragons

SpannerMonkey wrote: »

its an absolute disgrace how long this is taking to introduce:mad:
here is the latest details of poscodes for ireland


http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Communications/Postal/Postcodes.htm

Very interesting when you take the time to review the proposed postcode from DCENR. Basically it makes no sense and will be about as useful as half your normal address. My review is published here: https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1-9XX-CvzNZD_N4rk9TyGbx0KVNM-R338vPTW4v5UfEg and I would certainly enjoy comment or correction.