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National Postcodes to be introduced
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charlemont wrote: »It all boils down to decent organisational skills, Something that clearly seems to be lacking in Ireland as a whole, Lots of rural addresses like the townlands cant even be found on modern maps, Overlapping addresses etc. I hate looking for anyone's house in rural areas.
It seems to especially apply to anything relating to An Post or CIE companies to be honest.
Other stuff makes sense!
Telephone area codes, make perfect logical sense (more so than most countries)
Large region (0YX) split into smaller regions, with the main town/city being (0Y1).
Bank sort codes make logical sense.
Mobile number / porting to other networks works better than I've seen it work anywhere else. It takes days / weeks to port between carriers in a lot of countries.
Road numbers here increasingly follow some kind of logic and signage on N/M roads has massively improved.
Road tolling with tags works extremely well.
The NCT works well!0 -
ManAboutCouch wrote: »Lots of illogical addressing in Ireland alright. I have many examples of people in the same apartment building writing their address in completely different ways.
In rural areas the problem is different, but no less troublesome: most of the roads have no names, and the houses aren't numbered. Sure, the postman knows who lives in which house, usually, but do the emergency services? The Local Authority? The courier company?
I have a friend who has moved his address from Marino to Clontarf.
Take a walk down Grafton St. and see how many businesses have their street number on the premises. I think that there are three - two Vodafone stores and Topman.
Many people are using online and social location services - Google Places, Facebook and Foursquare etc so a lack of a roper address means people are also missing out on proper use of these services.
You can be guaranteed that in rural areas that a lane way will have a name so why not use these?
Personally, post coding will only really benefit the (declining) postal service and marketers. However, what we need to establish first is an addressing protocol and define and enforce local area boundaries. This is where the fun starts.0 -
When I was younger I felt as though Ireland was backward for not having post codes but the more I thought about it, the more I realised we don't need them. Plus, I like the fact that our heritage is being kept alive, and that deep inside an Amazon.com warehouse there's someone fulfilling an order, wondering where Ballytownville is.
Surely the existing system is good enough in built-up areas? 12 High Street, Carrick-on-Shannon, will bring you to.... wait for it... the building that is situated at 12 Main Street, Carrick-on-Shannon! I can't think of any post code system that is more accurate than thatIf it's an apartment building then put a unit number in front of it eg. 7/12 Main Street or whatever they do in other countries. The only problem with this, and it's a problem globally, is with inadequate signage/numbering but this is a fault of people/authorities, not the system.
In rural areas, I grant you, the existing system in more cumbersome. However, communities in these areas have adapted. We know each other, interact, communicate. There are very few postal systems in the world that I know of (the UK post code system is one), that can pinpoint a location on the Earth more accurately than an Irish townland.
Anyway, they're my thoughts, backed up with very little research, only personal feelings and experience.0 -
TheBlackBuck wrote: »When I was younger I felt as though Ireland was backward for not having post codes but the more I thought about it, the more I realised we don't need them. Plus, I like the fact that our heritage is being kept alive, and that deep inside an Amazon.com warehouse there's someone fulfilling an order, wondering where Ballytownville is.
Surely the existing system is good enough in built-up areas? 12 High Street, Carrick-on-Shannon, will bring you to.... wait for it... the building that is situated at 12 Main Street, Carrick-on-Shannon! I can't think of any post code system that is more accurate than thatIf it's an apartment building then put a unit number in front of it eg. 7/12 Main Street or whatever they do in other countries. The only problem with this, and it's a problem globally, is with inadequate signage/numbering but this is a fault of people/authorities, not the system.
In rural areas, I grant you, the existing system in more cumbersome. However, communities in these areas have adapted. We know each other, interact, communicate. There are very few postal systems in the world that I know of (the UK post code system is one), that can pinpoint a location on the Earth more accurately than an Irish townland.
Anyway, they're my thoughts, backed up with very little research, only personal feelings and experience.
I can see what you are thinking. Postcodes are good for databases. What we need now is somebody to take control of addressing and to have a standard format of addressing that is both human and machine friendly.
Unless we get the addressing part of the jigsaw right, post codes are a waste of time.0 -
A location code pinpoints the exact house or even the right entrance.TheBlackBuck wrote: »I like the fact that our heritage is being kept alive.......................There are very few postal systems in the world that I know of (the UK post code system is one), that can pinpoint a location on the Earth more accurately than an Irish townland.
The romantic townland type address remains. The code just adds onto the end of it for more precision.0 -
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I don't really agree that we can just continue "as is".
Ireland's urban and suburban addresses are extremely difficult to locate and rural addresses are often impossible to find without phoning for directions. Even with those directions you can struggle to find some places.
You also have to remember that a lot of other countries' post code systems do not achieve anything like geolocation. Many of them were only implemented to aid automatic letter sorting at the post office.
The French system is an example of a very crude postal code system that really provides no extra information that isn't already in the address.
Because Ireland skipped that kind of 1960s automatic sorting technology, we can now actually implement something that's genuinely useful to everyone.
I would see a geolocation code system as a piece of essential infrastructure that would put Ireland at a competitive advantage in many respects.
For example, logistics companies could save a hell of a lot of fuel by optimising delivery plans / routes.
No time's lost finding addresses.
Taxis and couriers can reduce fuel waste by getting to the address first time, via an optimised route.
Tourism would be greatly aided as most people visiting and touring Ireland seem to hire cars and increasingly those will all have GPS.
So, being able to punch in a code to get to a destination is a huge advantage from a tourism point of view.
Then the big public safety advantage is that the emergency services can get to an address much more reliably than with vague addressing.
The cleaning up of street addresses could be done, but it would have to be done by An Post or Local Authorities.
I would suggest that An Post would have to work with local authorities to ensure that properties are correctly numbered in urban areas and housing estates. Then, people would be given a 6-month amnesty to get those numbers displayed on their properties or face no guarantee of delivery of mail in future.
I'd actually go a step further. I do not think that the post man should have to walk to your door with mail. Every property should have a mailbox at the gate. It's unreasonable to expect a postman to have to walk up a long drive, or to face potential attack by dogs or to have to bend down to very low letter boxes (back strain). It's a waste of time, money and effort.0 -
A location code pinpoints the exact house or even the right entrance.
The romantic townland type address remains. The code just adds onto the end of it for more precision.
Romantic Ireland is (almost) dead and gone.... let's try and preserve what little remains.
A house/building number identifies the exact house/building in towns and cities. In rural areas it seems to have worked for centuries without them, but now we're trying to fix them? With the rural population a fraction of what it once was, surely there's less need now than ever.
As for location codes, I think they can be useful. But let's not use them, let alone make them compulsory, for the postal service. And instead of having codes that only identify buildings, why not take it one step further. Define a standard grid referencing system that should be used, Educate people that own buildings of their co-ordinates if they should ever need them. But this way, if you're out in the fields, up a hill, you can still get your grid reference from your mobile or GPS receiver and pass it on to whoever. This way you're not confined to a fixed structure. I'm sure there is a fairly standard grid referencing system for Ireland already, so all it would take is a good education and awareness program. Something along the lines of that nuclear evacuation program they ran a few years ago. That was useful.0 -
There were similar arguments made when the personal touch of the local telephone exchange operator in rural Ireland was replaced by dreary dial tone of an Alcatel E10 digital exchange in the 1980s.
However, I don't think many people would be willing to give up their voicemail, international dialing, and DSL to return to Eileen the Operator.
I don't really see the argument against postal codes as any different.
The only reason that addresses are found by An Post in rural and even urban areas is because the postman knows where they are. There is no publicly accessible infrastructure to make it possible for anyone else to find them!
Geographical postal codes work just fine in Scotland, and lots of other places and they're not less romantic than they used to be!
There are many, many, many very justifiable intrusions by ugly modernity that could be argued against e.g. inappropriate development in scenic areas, litter all over the place, ugly, badly maintained sheds/out buildings on farms, hideous buildings in cute towns etc etc.
I don't think postal codes are any threat to 'romantic Ireland', they just might make it a bit easier for her to get her packages delivered, ambulances to prevent her poets from dying of heart attacks while the driver can't find their house, and various other handy conveniences.
A haphazard, unreformed, Victorian addressing system is nothing to do with "romantic Ireland", unless that is to be defined by technophobia.0 -
Sorry Solair, I must have been typing when you posted.
I totally agree about the street names, house numbers, and subsequent penalties. And like I said, I'm all for geo-referencing. It already exists though but I think you must be on about something else which I haven't quite grasped yet.
And I think Eileen the Operator might disagree with you!0 -
TheBlackBuck wrote: »And I think Eileen the Operator might disagree with you!
She's happily living out her retirement on a generous semi-state pension!
The problem is that if postcoding / geocoding is not included in addresses, the system will just go unused / partially used and the current mess would continue to exist i.e. not being able to find anything half the time!
There are also problems with the postal service in terms of finding non-unique addresses without adequate coding.
An Post's performance outside of urban areas isn't always wonderfully accurate.
Even in urban areas, we regularly get letters for the wrong addresses.
Also, with courier services / other services it's virtually impossible for them to find addresses without local postman knowledge, so on those services a code would be essential really.
For An Post, if it were to consider adopting a geolocation code, it would also drastically improve its automatic sorting system and introduce much more streamlining of delivery routes etc.
From their perspective, there's no reason not to use such a system other than that it would make postal delivery possible and practical for their competitors!0 -
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TheBlackBuck wrote: »A house/building number identifies the exact house/building in towns and cities. In rural areas it seems to have worked for centuries without them, but now we're trying to fix them? With the rural population a fraction of what it once was, surely there's less need now than ever.
Just on this point, the rural population has stayed relatively stable in absolute terms. It keeps in and around 1.7 million. Compared to urban population, though, you're of course right. Still, 1.7 million constitutes a lot of people.0 -
She's happily living out her retirement on a generous semi-state pension!
Ah, but she's missing out on all the intimate local gossip, drank through her generous pension, and is usually found outside the local school, shouting to the children about "the good old days...".
Everything else you say is completely true. For businesses and services, using geo-location codes can only be a positive. And yes, even for people in their everyday lives.
My dislike for them is more from the social aspect I suppose. It probably makes more sense for people to have Unique Identifiers instead of personal names to avoid duplicates and confusion but who'd want that? Actually, I'm sure there are people who'd happily be called 8O081E5 but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.Just on this point, the rural population has stayed relatively stable in absolute terms. It keeps in and around 1.7 million. Compared to urban population, though, you're of course right. Still, 1.7 million constitutes a lot of people.
Interesting Aard. What's your source for this? It's not that I don't believe you (I do!) - I'm just curious about their definition of "rural".
My local village might be classified as rural, yet there is an opportunity to treat it as an urban area. With all the development recently a lot of little mini estates have popped up, all with fairly bland faux-Irish names and house numbers that can be used in postal addresses to get an exact location.
Also, slightly off-topic, I'd be curious to see what towns such as Crossmolina and Killashandra are classed as.0 -
TheBlackBuck wrote: »Interesting Aard. What's your source for this? It's not that I don't believe you (I do!) - I'm just curious about their definition of "rural".
My local village might be classified as rural, yet there is an opportunity to treat it as an urban area. With all the development recently a lot of little mini estates have popped up, all with fairly bland faux-Irish names and house numbers that can be used in postal addresses to get an exact location.
Also, slightly off-topic, I'd be curious to see what towns such as Crossmolina and Killashandra are classed as.
The latest census said that 62% of the population is urban, so 38% of 4580000 is 1740400. I don't have access atm but I recall a graph where the rural population has been almost flat for at least the last 20 years.
Afaik, any settlement with more than 1500 people in it is considered "urban". So at least for Crossmolina above, it'd be rural. (Not sure about the other one.) The key criterion for a house to be considered part of a given settlement is whether it's within 200m of the settlement. Fields and shops aren't counted. (This is, of course, not an exhaustive definition. It's coordinated across the EU, and possibly further afield.)
Interesting when you say "an opportunity to treat it as an urban area". I think this could be the case for a lot of Irish villages/towns. Without going on too much of a tangent, if new development in the future abuts existing settlements instead of being build 1km from the village centre then it'll give these areas a sense of place with a boundary of sorts instead of the tapering off of villages into ribbon-development into rural countryside... Anyway, I digress!0 -
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TheBlackBuck wrote: »My dislike for them is more from the social aspect I suppose. It probably makes more sense for people to have Unique Identifiers instead of personal names to avoid duplicates and confusion but who'd want that? Actually, I'm sure there are people who'd happily be called 8O081E5 but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.
We already do, it is called the PPS number.
And kind of scarily, do you know that it is now issued about one day after the child is born, when their birth is registered with the General Register Office :eek:
Of course we all continue to use our names day to day, but for any interaction with government, you have to use your PPS.
Personally I see little problem with having geo-codes. In fact I think it would be great.
More time doing really romantic things in the nice pub next to the fire, rather siting in a cold car, with a map struggling to find directions to the pub.0 -
We already do, it is called the PPS number.
And kind of scarily, do you know that it is now issued about one day after the child is born, when their birth is registered with the General Register Office :eek:
Of course we all continue to use our names day to day, but for any interaction with government, you have to use your PPS.
Personally I see little problem with having geo-codes. In fact I think it would be great.
More time doing really romantic things in the nice pub next to the fire, rather siting in a cold car, with a map struggling to find directions to the pub.
That's a good point about the PPS number and personal names. In much the same way if geo-codes were introduced we'd still use townlands in everyday speech.
Can you recommend a good site to learn more about them? I'd like to know what they'd look like, how they are generated, how accurate they are, and whether we can interpret them without computers.
Aard, thanks for your tangent. I'm studying Urban Planning and you've given me an idea for my final year project!0 -
TheBlackBuck wrote: »
A house/building number identifies the exact house/building in towns and cities.
It only identifies the house/building if you're standing in front of it and know what street you're on....it doesn't help you get there.0 -
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Fair enough. If you're living in a hole with your eyes closed and a cardboard box over your head a geocode with not help you find your way to Micheal McCarthy, Mytownland, Mytown, Mycounty.TheBlackBuck wrote: »Neither does a geocode (as far as I know). You still need to input it into a sat nav, mobile, or whatever you're using.
Here is how wikipedia describes a Geocode.GEOCODE (Geospatial Entity Object Code) is a system that includes a patented geographic information transformation algorithm and a patented geospatial coordinate representation format. The standardized all-natural number representation format specification or geospatial coordinate, provides details of the exact location or geospatial point at, below, or above the surface of the earth at a specified moment of time.
An exact geographic location. That's all. An address does not give you an exact geographic location.
In order to find your way from point A to point B you need something to interpret the route. Whether that is a human reading a paper map or a piece of software doing some network analysis.
I'm not sure what you expect a postcode to enable you to do.0 -
Here are some admissions:
1) Post codes are primarily used for the delivery of post and parcels
2) Post codes do not need to be geo-codes. The English post code system is not derived from geographical locations, however, each code is mapped to a geographical location, you can see this now in tools such as Google Earth that show you the area that a post code covers. Take the following example:
http://maps.google.com/maps/place?q=+N16+0UD
3) Post codes for directions are no use without a route planning system which knows your current location, the location of the post code and the intervening road/rail/walking routes.
However, I simply despair of the "sure why do we need them, we have been fine for ever without them" brigade. Here are a few easy reasons to help these naysaysers:
i) Posted letters may be decreasing, but the use of parcel services for delivery of goods ordered on-line is growing year on year.
ii) Secondly, GPS systems and routing are now standard in most smartphones, which now account for at least 37% of the Irish phone market and now outsell standard mobile phones.
iii) Ireland has lost significant numbers of foriegn tourists over the past 5 years. Anything to increase the ease of travel / route planning for this much needed source of income should surely be considered?
iv) As the previous posters have commented, there are still 1.7 million people out of 4.5 million, which is over 1/3 of the population whose needs are simply being ignored by the 2/3 of the "we're all right jack" brigade. Nice to hear that you think so highly of everybody who doesn't live in an urban area and their needs!
Just a few thoughts for now, feel free to add your own.0 -
Everything you mentioned is perfectly sound reasoning.... until you come out with this:ForiegnNational wrote: »iv) As the previous posters have commented, there are still 1.7 million people out of 4.5 million, which is over 1/3 of the population whose needs are simply being ignored by the 2/3 of the "we're all right jack" brigade. Nice to hear that you think so highly of everybody who doesn't live in an urban area and their needs!
I'm from way out in the sticks and I can get by (and have done) happily without post codes/geo-codes. I'm one of those 1.7 million and I don't particularly want them. If you did a poll of people in rural areas I wouldn't be surprised if the majority didn't care for them either.
Now, I do see the logic in introducing geo-codes (not postcodes) and I have no rational argument against them except...ForiegnNational wrote: »"sure why do we need them, we have been fine for ever without them"0 -
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Why?TheBlackBuck wrote: »I'm from way out in the sticks and I can get by (and have done) happily without post codes/geo-codes. I'm one of those 1.7 million and I don't particularly want them. If you did a poll of people in rural areas I wouldn't be surprised if the majority didn't care for them either.
???TheBlackBuck wrote: »Now, I do see the logic in introducing geo-codes (not postcodes) and I have no rational argument against them except...0 -
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TheBlackBuck wrote: »Why what? Why wouldn't I be surprised if the majority didn't care for them either? Because I somewhat expect that it's possible.
I also live in a very rural area (six properties spread along 2km of booreen) and I would like a post code so that I didn't have to collect the parcels myself from the delivery companies that cannot locate us.
So from a straw poll of two people, 50% are against and 50% are in favour, can you back up your "somewhat expect" statement?
MOD: Can you set up a poll for people "For introductions of post code and against?"0 -
They're not really designed for the people who live out in the sticks to find other people who live in the same sticks though, are they? What about the delivery drivers from courier companies wandering aimlessly around the countryside trying to find properties based on addresses that mean nothing to anyone except the person living there, or having to call ahead to get directions for every delivery and wasting time and money doing so?
Some people might not "care for them", whatever that means, but when they get deliveries refused for not using them, they might suddenly cop on and start to.0 -
Why would the majority of people in rural areas not care for postcodes?TheBlackBuck wrote: »Why what? Why wouldn't I be surprised if the majority didn't care for them either? Because I somewhat expect that it's possible.
And you somewhat trailed off on your previous statement. What comes after ... ?Now, I do see the logic in introducing geo-codes (not postcodes) and I have no rational argument against them except...0 -
Ah ok, my only argument against is "sure why do we need them, we have been fine for ever without them".
And ForiegnNational, how would you like me to back up a feeling I have? You're just going to have to take my word for it. I deliberately used terms such as "somewhat expect", "wouldn't be surprised", "might not care for them" because I haven't asked every single person in rural areas what their thoughts were. Stop trying to nitpick - it's really annoying. Nobody asked you to try and back up your statement about 2/3 of the country not caring about what happens to the rest.
A poll on this thread is a good idea. It would be interesting to see the rural/urban difference but that's not possible.0 -
TheBlackBuck wrote: »A poll on this thread is a good idea. It would be interesting to see the rural/urban difference but that's not possible.
How about something along the lines of:
1) I live in an urban area and am for the introduction of postcodes
2) I live in an urban area and am against the introduction of postcodes
3) I live in a rural area and am for the introduction of postcodes
4) I live in a rural area and am against the introduction of postcodes
Would identify the true feeling as you say. Stats would still only be indicative, but at least it will confirm the argument for/against.0 -
ForiegnNational wrote: »How about something along the lines of:
1) I live in an urban area and am for the introduction of postcodes
2) I live in an urban area and am against the introduction of postcodes
3) I live in a rural area and am for the introduction of postcodes
4) I live in a rural area and am against the introduction of postcodes
Would identify the true feeling as you say. Stats would still only be indicative, but at least it will confirm the argument for/against.
Sounds good.0 -
To be honest if you're 64 pages into a thread on how postcodes should be implemented a poll on whether it's a good idea or not is a bit late.
If you have an issue with a postcode system explain what it is and the system can either be changed to accommodate reasonable concerns or someone can allay those concerns with a considered response.
Faffing about at this stage is something I'd expect of a Govt Department rather than the educated masses of the Boards literati.
Feelings and intuition are the kind of response I'd expect to hear from a septuagenarian who just want's a chat.0 -
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You just defined location codes. They are like a shortened version of a national grid reference.TheBlackBuck wrote: »And instead of having codes that only identify buildings, why not take it one step further. Define a standard grid referencing system that should be used, Educate people that own buildings of their co-ordinates if they should ever need them. But this way, if you're out in the fields, up a hill, you can still get your grid reference from your mobile or GPS receiver and pass it on to whoever. This way you're not confined to a fixed structure.
Google for "Loc 8 codes" and do all the testing you like.TheBlackBuck wrote: »Can you recommend a good site to learn more about them? I'd like to know what they'd look like, how they are generated, how accurate they are, and whether we can interpret them without computers.0
This discussion has been closed.
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