National Postcodes to be introduced

SPDUB

Solair wrote: »

I would suggest that An Post would have to work with local authorities to ensure that properties are correctly numbered in urban areas and housing estates.

Perfectly sensible suggestion except it has one tiny flaw .

An Post doesn't have any role in relation to numbering of houses or naming of estates

You can number or name a property whatever you want and if An Post is able to find out ( by you telling them for example ) where that property is then they are obliged by law to deliver to it .

Then, people would be given a 6-month amnesty to get those numbers displayed on their properties or face no guarantee of delivery of mail in future.

That would require a change in law

I do not think that the post man should have to walk to your door with mail. Every property should have a mailbox at the gate.

The postal regulator COMREG won't allow An Post to only deliver to a mailbox.

..or to face potential attack by dogs

If there is a dog at large delivery can be suspended ,in fact that happened to the chairman of An Post a few years back

..or to have to bend down to very low letter boxes (back strain).

If it's an approx pre 2000 ,when a change in building regulations prohibited them , low level letterbox then An Post is obliged to deliver to them .

For An Post, if it were to consider adopting a geolocation code, it would also drastically improve its automatic sorting system and introduce much more streamlining of delivery routes etc.

Even without postcodes 70% of mail is currently sorted down to route level

MrLaurel

GetWithIt wrote: »

To be honest if you're 64 pages into a thread on how postcodes should be implemented a poll on whether it's a good idea or not is a bit late.

If you have an issue with a postcode system explain what it is and the system can either be changed to accommodate reasonable concerns or someone can allay those concerns with a considered response.

Faffing about at this stage is something I'd expect of a Govt Department rather than the educated masses of the Boards literati.

Feelings and intuition are the kind of response I'd expect to hear from a septuagenarian who just want's a chat.

Never too late to have a poll on postcodes. I do feel that the implementation of them would be a good idea but obviously the code would have to be quite simplisitic and avoid the whole North Dublin odd numbers, South Dublin even numbers. I still can't figure out the UK system though. Does the US Zip code system work on the basis of literally drawing an area on a map and saying that area is 01254??

MrLaurel

MrLaurel wrote: »

I still can't figure out the UK system though. Does the US Zip code system work on the basis of literally drawing an area on a map and saying that area is 01254??

The UK system is simply based on the postman’s delivery routes for the second part of the code and the first part is sorting offices.

thirty-six dragons

I could never understand people's faith or mythology about UK postcodes. Fact is that UK postcodes only work in combination with the postoffice's database for bulk sorting mail (may as well call them Mickey, Minnie, Donald, and Snow White) and as for routing they only work with the postman's local knowledge (same as my postman can find "The Ginger B*stard wot lives with too many cats").

This is a map of some UK postcodes in Newry - in BT34. https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=215366462544581397008.0004c0e25f6949e51a2ae&msa=0

But before you look at the map. See if you can work out a route for yourself with the postcodes: BT34 2BA, BT34 2BB, BT34 2FQ, BT34 2GA. You might also ask yourself how important the "BT" for "Belfast" is when you're living in Newry and even then if it adds anything to the address information ("Newry 34" would have done as well).

But back to routing?

Did it work? Did you plan a route? BTW, how did you know which side of the street these were on? Did you really walk through people's gardens? Which of these streets is actually a dead end? And most importantly of all - something no UK postcode can ever foretell: where are you coming from and where are you going to and what direction are you planning to travel in?

It doesn't work, does it. Postcodes are never the calculation for routing - they are location information. Routing is a separate (albeit fairly ordinary) function.

UK postcodes only make sense because the local postman is very very used to his route. And they make more sense these days because other services and companies can look up coordinates for the postcode online - now that the UK postcode has been opened.

But in the modern world where geolocation codes are as simple as a precise mathematical formula to freely and simply convert coordinates directly into exact short open postcodes which can be calculated on even a simple spreadsheet to advocate UK-style postcodes seems totally wrong.

Solair

So, are we going to get post codes of some sort, or will this be an never-ending consultation process that goes on for decades?

thirty-six dragons

It is disappointing to think that consultants and politicians are still incapable. We will no doubt get a useless version of the UK postcode which will mean less than nothing in rural Ireland and in the modern world be pointless in urban areas - which is a shame when at least three different geolocation codes are already available in the country. Two are proprietary, one is free, - but even then you'd imagine that the government if they wished could buy out the license from the proprietary code owners.

I have no idea who is going to go to the expense of employing a postcode that is just data redundancy and is less accurate than a very basic street/townland address.

Solair

Don't worry, they'll probably be required to have fadas in them and be accurate to the nearest county.

Mearings

Solair wrote: »

Don't worry, they'll probably be required to have fadas in them and be accurate to the nearest county.

You've got a point there, was there not a protest regarding D, WD, WH & suchlike when the vehicle registration system was changed?

The Cush

Main points from the article in last Sunday's newspaper

- The Dept is coming to the end of the consultation process
- Will be in a position to begin a competitive tender process in the near future
- Government keen to introduce an adavnced postcode system "where almost every building in the country has its own postcode"
- Next stage is to draw up parameters of the postcode system followed by competitive tender for licencee
- Call for tender in the coming months

Solair

So sometime before 2113?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

thirty-six dragons

daveirl wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Oh absolutely! My apologies, I took the great benefits of the UK postcode as read. I wanted to dispel the myth however that street-based UK postcodes had a functionality more than simple geolocation calculated codes. It works well because Sky know their codes, the bank has access to the same database, the pizza delivery knows its local area. Far superior to wonky Irish addresses - but the point to be made to people in the Republic is that the UK postcode doesn't actually convey all that meaning on its own - the code itself doesn't actually organise a lorry driver's route just because the codes are based along streets.

Absolutely any unique code, no matter how it is generated, would be of immense benefit to the country.

A geolocation code is available immediately, works best with Irish addressing (or lack thereof), and is future proof and doesn't require a bureaucratic layer of management.

so will you tender for it then?

By the sounds of it you would be the lowest price bidder if its open, costs nothing and requires no maintenance

thirty-six dragons

Deleted User wrote: »

so will you tender for it then?

By the sounds of it you would be the lowest price bidder if its open, costs nothing and requires no maintenance

I imagine the government would rather "management" of a code. They seem to imagine that a code needs to be centrally devised and owned. This would be true if a postcode were devised along the bends of roads and housing-estate cul-de-sacs, but a geolocation code needs no more central management than coordinates themselves.

Does one ask government permission when storing a POI in a satnav? No need.

But, sincerely, it would be interesting to submit a bid of zero.

Seriously, why not submit a tender then?

dmn

iantheteacher wrote: »

I imagine the government would rather "management" of a code. They seem to imagine that a code needs to be centrally devised and owned. This would be true if a postcode were devised along the bends of roads and housing-estate cul-de-sacs, but a geolocation code needs no more central management than coordinates themselves.

Does one ask government permission when storing a POI in a satnav? No need.

But, sincerely, it would be interesting to submit a bid of zero.

go for it!
saves us taxpayers money

thirty-six dragons

Deleted User wrote: »

Seriously, why not submit a tender then?

I am one of the lucky people that already has a job he likes and enjoys. I would happily volunteer as a "consultant" for zero-euros; and push for an open postcode standard and for a geolocation postcode (whichever one, although I do have a preference) - but the government have obviously set their minds to farming out the introduction of the postcode to a tender process. I imagine it will work much like the householdcharge.ie.

The tender needs to be made by an organisation that will have the website, organise the mailshots, and buy the address data from the GeoDirectory.ie.

AnPost really should be considering this themselves. They can't be unaware of the suitability of the GeoDirectory and a simple openpostcode to generate postcodes efficiently. I understand that not all the GeoDirectory has best accuracy but certainly the initial roll out of the postcode does not need to cover every address. Individuals will always be able to generate their own postcodes online. Other organisations will collect their postcode data as they go and where postcodes are not available can help clients generate their codes online. And remember, at an individual level it will make little difference to a household or individual who happily never bothers with a postcode - they won't get the benefits of one, but they won't be any worse off than they are today.

The ESB is another organisation that may have a customer address database for every electricity meter and has an interest in generating and collecting postcodes and has an immediate infrastructure to handle the customer support.

The government were able to present the Water Board to Bord Gáis - it would make sense if they did the same with postcodes. There is no need for another state agency or profit-making company in an era of recession and of rationalising state agencies.

larchill

Wonder where this whole thing has ended up? Its almost 10 years since this whole issue kicked off in 2003. I suppose like everything else its gone to the 'great graveyard in the sky'!

jack presley

larchill wrote: »

Wonder where this whole thing has ended up? Its almost 10 years since this whole issue kicked off in 2003. I suppose like everything else its gone to the 'great graveyard in the sky'!

We dont do things quickly in this country. How long did real time info on buses or integrated tickets take after they were first announced? Both probably took about 10 years

The Cush

larchill wrote: »

Wonder where this whole thing has ended up? Its almost 10 years since this whole issue kicked off in 2003. I suppose like everything else its gone to the 'great graveyard in the sky'!

Links to Oireachtas discussions/questions on the matter

Tuesday, 15 May 2012

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/Debates%20Authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/takes/seanad2012051500009?opendocument

Wednesday, 6 June 2012
Chairman:
Deputy Harrington asked a question on post codes.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte:
The Department still is ironing out some of the issues that arise in respect of the procurement process in this regard. It has taken great care with the aforementioned process to ensure it is beyond reproach. The final tender is due shortly and between then and now I must go to the Cabinet. As for how much will be done by the end of the year, financial, technical and operational issues will determine that but if the Deputy is asking me whether the postcodes will be in place in 2012, they will not. It has been necessary to proceed step by step with the procurement process and the Department is ready to bring the proposal before the Cabinet shortly.

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/Debates%20Authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/committeetakes/AG12012060600003?opendocument

Tuesday, 17 July 2012

413. Deputy Michael Healy-Rae
asked the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources the position regarding the introduction of a national post code system; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [34732/12]

415. Deputy Thomas P. Broughan
asked the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources if he will report on the current status of the review of the postal code system; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [34804/12]

Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Pat Rabbitte): I propose to take Questions Nos. 413 and 415 together.

A procurement process for a national postcode system is currently under way. The process commended last year with the publication of a pre-qualification questionnaire on the e-tenders website www.etenders.gov.ie for the appointment of a postcode management licence holder. Since then intensive work has taken place on the procurement process on what is an extremely complex national project.

The final decision on whether to proceed with the implementation of a national postcode will be one for Government and will be based on appropriate financial, technical and operational considerations. This decision will be made later this year.

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/Debates%20Authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/takes/dail2012071700319?opendocument

Wednesday, 18 July 2012

Mr. Donal Connell:
I thank the committee for the invitation to address it today. My name is Donal Connell and I am chief executive of An Post. I am accompanied by John Daly, our retail operations director. I have been asked to discuss the future role of the post office network as well as the development of a postcode system. I will address the latter issue first.

The Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources is currently managing a tender process to evaluate proposals for the implementation of a postcode system. An Post is actively participating in this process. Consequently, the committee will appreciate that I am not in a position to elaborate further on this matter, as the process is ongoing.

...
On the availability of postcodes, this is part of a tender process currently. However, I am limited as to the comments I can make as An Post is a potential bidder for the position of postcode management licence holder. The Department is running that process and I cannot comment further as a result. We will participate very actively in the process.

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/Debates%20Authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/committeetakes/TRJ2012071800003?opendocument

who_am_I?

You can always email them to find out:
postcodes@dcenr.gov.ie

They informed me that it was "ongoing"

who_am_I?

who_am_I? wrote: »

You can always email them to find out:
postcodes@dcenr.gov.ie

They informed me that it was "ongoing"

Solair

I don't know how this can be taking so long. It's absolutely ridiculous at this stage.

I mean, it's gone to the level that a lot of companies and individuals have just given up and are using commercial solutions like Loc8 codes. Other companies like ESB have their own systems entirely.

Meanwhile, it just ads to the expense of doing business in Ireland by increasing delivery costs as it means couriers can't effectively find anything.

Although, when it comes to chucking money at banks, the Government's quite capable of making rash decisions over night.

Yet, with something like this, sure it's endless discussion, debate, meetings, consultations, thinking about it, planning it out, etc etc..

Ireland's really got its priorities all wrong on a lot of things.

recedite

My name is Donal Connell......
The Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources is currently managing a tender process to evaluate proposals for the implementation of a postcode system. An Post is actively participating in this process. Consequently, the committee will appreciate that I am not in a position to elaborate further on this matter, as the process is ongoing.......
On the availability of postcodes, this is part of a tender process currently. However, I am limited as to the comments I can make as An Post is a potential bidder for the position of postcode management licence holder. The Department is running that process and I cannot comment further as a result. We will participate very actively in the process.

source

I can't believe this guy is both designing the tender and bidding for it.
And he sees nothing wrong with that. Talk about being the poacher and gamekeeper.
Using the term "postcode" gives a wrong impression that An Post are the main stakeholder in this, but they already have their own private sorting codes. Location codes are about much more than that; private courier companies, online supermarket deliveries, Joe Soap trying to find the B&B he booked into etc....
I'm starting to think that both the protracted "ongoing process" and the final outcome have one objective in mind; to protect An Post from competition.

larchill

... another piece of Paddywhackery!

Scartbeg

AN Post is entitled to deliver mail to a postal address rather than to an actual geographical address, the High Court has ruled.

An Post had brought High Court challenge to a direction by the Commission for Communications Regulation (ComReg) - which regulates postal and telecomunication services - to deliver mail using the actual geographical description of a customer's house instead of their postal address which was different....

...It also argued that if had to use geographical addresses - as opposed to postal addresses - on a nationwide basis it would require a costly and fundamental restructuring of the manner in which mail is sorted and delivered throughout Ireland.

..."The concept of a postal address is and has been since the foundation of the state, and long before, a well known and accepted reality." he said. The system An Post uses to deliver post "cannot in all cases mirror the precise geographic location of a particular house, " he added.

Source


I don't have great hopes that the current "postcode" procurement process is going to deliver any improvements if An Post have any hand in it.

irishgeo

Scartbeg wrote: »

Source


I don't have great hopes that the current "postcode" procurement process is going to deliver any improvements if An Post have any hand in it.

A post code system would have rendered this case null and void as An Post would just use the post code and people would not be trying to big up the area they live in.

recedite

Maybe, but if the code depended on where the nearest An Post sorting office was, as opposed to the actual geographical position of the house, then people might still complain.

irishgeo

recedite wrote: »

Maybe, but if the code depended on where the nearest An Post sorting office was, as opposed to the actual geographical position of the house, then people might still complain.

I doubt a postcode is going to based on where the nearest sorting office is. I mean an post are not the only companies delivering mail.

Solair

irishgeo wrote: »

I doubt a postcode is going to based on where the nearest sorting office is. I mean an post are not the only companies delivering mail.

One would hope they won't do that.

A lot of European postal codes don't really give you any information at all other than what town / suburb it is, because they were only ever designed to be used by the post office to sort mail. So, they're totally useless for GPS.