National Postcodes to be introduced

Curly Judge

irishgeo wrote: »

has the revenue solved our problem, they just given every house in the country a property id, can we not use that as a postcode?

I would have thought that there's a world f difference between a property ID and a location code.
I have a social insurance ID but it won't help you find me, other than providing you with my address....which is where we started out.

Curly Judge

Others seem to be taking an interest?
The Irish Times have published a letter on the subject yesterday and a response today.

elhal

Saw that.... just goes to show that there are people out there who feel strongly about the benefits of some sort of location code! We should all take a leaf out of that guys book and actually start making our voices heard.

Curly Judge

elhal wrote: »

Saw that.... just goes to show that there are people out there who feel strongly about the benefits of some sort of location code! We should all take a leaf out of that guys book and actually start making our voices heard.

I wonder if An Post, the Deptment or it's Minister will come out to challenge these assertions.
More likely they will keep their heads well down!

aimhigh

aimhigh wrote: »

What is being discussed here in the last few posts are " Postal" addresses, introduced by An Post over the years for the sole purpose of helping to sort mail. These addresses are promulgated and made defacto official property addresses through An Post's Geodirectory which is then used as a the official address reference by both State and Commercial entities.

A high court judgement in favour of An Post in 2012, gave support to this practice which moves an Irish property address away from being a description of the location of the property (the global norm) to one in which the process of sorting and delivering the mail by An Post is described. This description therefore can change as mail sorting operations also change;- something which will happen more often as rationalisation and cost savings occur within An Post due to the serious decline in the mail business.

It is the proliferation of this very propriatory mail sorting addressing system that encouraged the start of the process to introduce postcodes before 2005 as a liberalising tool so that independent organisations could use addressing for their own needs also. The intention was that a postcode would help them find a property directly themselves without having to follow the mail sorting clues in an An Post postal address. These clues often require access to the GeoDirectory; a product which enjoys licensing restrictions and does not necessarily resolve how to find an ambiguous address without knowing the name of who occupies what property in the first place!

However, the process which remains "ongoing" has turned into a process to formalise the "postal address" rather than liberalise it. The postcode to be implemented, which was specified in the Dept of Communications tender invitation document of Jan 2011, was an An Post "Post Town" specification. It actually reinforces the postal addressing model; a 6 character code, the first 3 characters of which will denote the post-town which, as one poster commented in recent posts, is often not in the same geographic area or even the same county as the property itself. This postcode would require significant technology change by An Post themselves to implement at significant cost too (€30-50million) and as the mail business is in serious decline, there is a strong suggestion that An Post will not change technology or pratices (CWU) to use the postcode itself;- it will be just for public use whilst An Post itself continues to use the postal address as is now and as will continue to vary this to suit as its operations contract. (Which also means the postcode would have to change frequently too!)

An Post stated at the very outset of the process that it does not need a postcode. It uses postal addresses instead and there is no reason to stop using these even if there is a new postcode in place.

The tender process to implement this An Post postal address related postcode remains "ongoing" with An Post as one of the main preferred suppliers and one of its largest customers, Ticode (a bulk mail marketing company), also on the preferred list.

Should this An Post postcode be implemented, the mail sorting adressing system that has become our official addressing (quoted here in the last few posts) is unlikely to change and the new postcode would not offer any easy interpretation to it for those who do not work for An Post.

Will posters here and the Irish public in general be happy with this?

It seems that Minister Rabbitte may not be happy but so far he has not been able to terminate the "ongoing" process himself.

Another month gone by - still no postcode and the process remains "ongoing" !

amtc

ComReg appealed this to the Supreme Court.

amtc

amtc wrote: »

ComReg appealed this to the Supreme Court.

Got a link to that? On phone and nothing is coming up in a search

The Cush

Deleted User wrote: »

Got a link to that?

http://www.comreg.ie/_fileupload/publications/ComReg12114.pdf

D.L.R.

Curly Judge wrote: »

I would have thought that there's a world f difference between a property ID and a location code.
I have a social insurance ID but it won't help you find me, other than providing you with my address....which is where we started out.

Er, so because a person is hard to locate, so is a house? :pac:

Solair

The Cush wrote: »

http://www.comreg.ie/_fileupload/publications/ComReg12114.pdf

So the state's effectively suing itself.

Great day for the lawyers!

With regard to postal codes, I don't understand why the minister doesn't just do us all a big favour and implement the damn things as a piece of primary legislation. It would immediately remove all this vagueness and give ComReg the ability to manage the whole thing.

Curly Judge

D.L.R. wrote: »

Er, so because a person is hard to locate, so is a house? :pac:

Er....no...but...I could call my house Castel Gan Dolpho.
How would that help you to find it?
I presume the Revenue gave your house a serial number so that they could find it in their filing cabinet, not on a map.
Given the short period of time they had to get their registration system up and running I doubt they had the luxury of setting up a proper location code or Sat Nav compatible system?

Curly Judge

Solair wrote: »

So the state's effectively suing itself.

Great day for the lawyers!

With regard to postal codes, I don't understand why the minister doesn't just do us all a big favour and implement the damn things as a piece of primary legislation. It would immediately remove all this vagueness and give ComReg the ability to manage the whole thing.

Both sides can hire the very best lawyers available.
After all they are playing with the bookies money!
To hell with the expense throw the cat another canary

aimhigh

They have already wasted 28 months on one unfinished tender process and now they want to start another one instead:

PARLIAMENTARY QUESTION NO. 746

Dail Eireann

To ask the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources when the roll out of post codes across the country will take place; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

- Dominic Hannigan.

Ref No: 17198/13

Reply

Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Mr P Rabbitte)

The Government is committed to introducing postcodes across the State. The implementation of a national postcode system is a complex and detailed process. Consequently the procurement process to select a postcode management licence holder to implement a National Postcode System is ongoing. It is expected that the matter will be put to tender in mid-May.

The final decision to proceed with implementation of a national postcode will be one for Government and will be based on appropriate financial, technical and operational considerations.

By April 2015, the latest Minister will still be saying that the process is "ongoing" - what a shambles! Don't forget that Noel Dempsey, the first Minister involved, said that a postcode would be in place by Jan 2008 and we are now 5 years and 4 months past that deadline!

It definitely is unprecedented and a new low in the organisational ability of the Dept. Of Communications. And worse still,;- PA Consulting were contracted in 2010 to make this happen by August 2011 but they have failed miserably - does this make them redundant now? ...... and millions wasted!

recedite

Solair wrote: »

With regard to postal codes, I don't understand why the minister doesn't just do us all a big favour and implement the damn things as a piece of primary legislation. It would immediately remove all this vagueness and give ComReg the ability to manage the whole thing.

The Labour party were vocal on the issue while in opposition, but since they gained power and the ability to actually do something about it, they have suffered from a strange kind of amnesia, which has also affected a lot of other pre-election policies.....

The Postcodes Report has recommended that the chosen postcode system should be a unique identifier system which will provide for a speedy response by emergency services; will provide greater efficiency and interaction with GPS technologies; will not require a change in names of townlands; will have lower maintenance costs than the proposed system; and will support spatial planning, and the delivery of health services in particular

from; govt. getting it wrong on postcodes

Del2005

Curly Judge wrote: »

Both sides can hire the very best lawyers available.
After all they are playing with the bookies money!
To hell with the expense throw the cat another canary

Since all the tribunals are over how else are the barristers supposed to bleed us dry

ManAboutCouch

It is expected that the matter will be put to tender in mid-May.

Well, I'm not holding my breath, but we should at least see something from the department soon.

aimhigh

ManAboutCouch wrote: »

Well, I'm not holding my breath, but we should at least see something from the department soon.

seems to be a little amnesia on this subject:-

There is already a National Postcode Tender in progress - it started on 17 Jan 2011 and was to finish in August 2011 but it has never been brought to conclusion!

The Irish Times - Tuesday, January 4, 2011
HARRY McGEE Political Correspondent
POSTCODES ARE likely to be introduced throughout the State by the end of the year, following Government clearance for the tender process for the project to begin.
The Cabinet agreed to the procurement system for the national postcodes at its last meeting before Christmas, Minister for Communications Eamon Ryan has confirmed. The process to award the contract for the project – with estimated costs of less than €15 million – will be completed by summer.
Mr Ryan said the introduction of postcodes will lead to significant savings and efficiencies for the State. It would deliver more comprehensive statistical and geographical data, as well as open up new revenue streams, particularly for An Post.
The Government has approved the recommendations of consultants that the postcodes should be alpha-numeric, incorporating letters and numbers.
Dublin is the only location in the State with postal codes. Ireland is the only country in the EU, or among OECD countries, that does not have a nationwide postcode system.
Mr Ryan said one of the most important features of the system would be “memorability”. In practice that means a location will be identified by its initials, in a manner roughly analogous to the vehicle registration system.
The system will also retain elements of the existing Dublin post codes. The current postcode of Dublin 7 could begin D07 and continue with numbers that pinpoint the location to a particular property. Similarly, the postcode for addresses in other areas will contain letters that readily identify the area, followed by a series of numbers that pinpoint the property. Possible permutations might include: GLY (Galway); CK (Cork); and KKY (Kilkenny).
A departmental briefing paper refers to two models – a “postal sector” model and a location model – being combined. The postal sector model would divide the country into post towns (identified by letter) and each post town into groups of approximately 40 to 50 properties (identified by number). There would be approximately 200 post towns.
The paper says the model is capable of being refined into a location-based code – in other words identifying each individual property within a post town. It says this hybrid model will provide the basis for the procurement for a national postcode system.
Several companies developing global positioning technology – notably Garmin – have devised all-Ireland digital address codes that provide precise addresses. While these codes will not provide the basis for the national system, the Department of Communications said these companies were free to tender. The department believes the availability of codes will ensure more efficient sharing of information between agencies and companies. It also says it will help the Central Statistics Office unlock more data and help emergency services.
The main issue that has divided the Cabinet relates to whether the codes should be in Irish or English. The document discloses the Minister has received representations from Irish language organisations, arguing in favour of the Irish version of the post-town name.
Mr Ryan recommended the Irish language version of post-towns should take precedence, insofar as it did not lead to difficulties in disseminating the postcode to the public because of major differences between Irish- and English-language versions of post towns, duplication or other operational difficulties. In Gaeltacht areas, the letters would refer to the Irish placename.
Mr Ryan said memorability would be important. “I think it should be something you retain in your mind, a postal code that can make sense for the area and is not just a random series of letters and numbers.”
He also said An Post, after initial reluctance, had become more receptive. “It recognises that the postal business has to change and look at new business streams and opportunities. Postal codes will help new internet business.”

Minister Rabbitte has used the fact that this tender process was "ongoing" to avoid discussion on the subject for the last 2 years!

Mind you, it would not be the first time a National Postcode related tender was stopped and restarted in the last 3 years: Statement Former Labour Minsiter, Liz Mc Manus 16 April 2010

I really don't think that there is any awareness about the mess that has been made of this National Postcode since it was first muted 8 years ago and most likley it is not Minister Rabbittes fault and it looks like he has not been able to sort it either though...

Equally, I am not sure that anyone really knows (or possibly cares) what's going on;- either way I do not believe that Ireland will have a National Postcode anytime soon!:mad:

[Jackass]

I sh*t you not - for 15 MILLION - you could give the national postcode job to me and 6 months time frame, I would have the whole thing perfect ahead of schedule and would have 14.5million profit from the project.

Just employ some specialist infrastructure / town planning PHD academics for a couple of months, or better yet, what the fu*k is the civil service there for if we have to tender every single project - do we have ANY specialist skills in the civil service? Why are they being paid all this money if every project is done out of house....I mean, how complicated is this? No need to reinvent the wheel either - the blueprint of how to implement postcodes is pretty well established worldwide, we're coming in to this a good 50+ years late, so we don't exactly have to write the book on it...

Solair

This thread should tender!

recedite

Anyone who has posted is a shareholder.
Whoopee..... € € € for all

OU812

I wonder now with the property tax almost complete (careful now, this thread should not be derailed into a property tax debate), so that there will be a proper database of property ownership & addresses would it be easier to implement a postcode system?

(or is that sort of thinking too progressive for the government?)

Deedsie

Money was spent on two infrastructure projects this week that the public will actually benefit from. Maybe there is now money there to spend again and this will actually be sorted out. It badly badly needs to be done.

OU812

OU812 wrote: »

I wonder now with the property tax almost complete (careful now, this thread should not be derailed into a property tax debate), so that there will be a proper database of property ownership & addresses would it be easier to implement a postcode system?

(or is that sort of thinking too progressive for the government?)

All the property tax collection exercise created was a list of names (of owners) to addresses, they already knew the addresses, I can't see how it would help in getting a postcode system developed.

OU812

People would have corrected addresses etc.

Del2005

OU812 wrote: »

People would have corrected addresses etc.

There's already a list of correct addresses but the company that owns it won't let us, it's owners, access it without paying a lot for the privilege.

Having correct addresses at this stage isn't any good, the need to be able to find the address easily is. Unfortunately the tender is for a system which would have been beneficial 60 years ago.

elhal

Anyone see the ad in Irish Independant Yest with Loc8 wishing Pat Rabitte Happy Birthday! As a present they offered free postcodes ha ha ha!!! Wonder if Mr Rabitte will use his B-day present!!

Solair

This is really beyond a joke now.

elhal

Here it is! Brilliant!

antoinolachtnai

Loc8 want to license their technology and receive a fee in return. There is nothing wrong with that per se, but it isn't 'free'.

antoinolachtnai

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Loc8 want to license their technology and receive a fee in return. There is nothing wrong with that per se, but it isn't 'free'.

True, but it's far cheaper than yet another "consultation" or whatever.