National Postcodes to be introduced

elhal

OU812 wrote: »

Most of the work is done already, it ties in with the OSI, would be easily commutable to GPS. Seems simple enough & certainly not enough work to delay it eight years+

sure that looks like what Loc8 have done already - see their website, they are working with the OSI, bottom of home page - OSi is a partner and theyare using OSI map and grid systems!

elhal

Dam099.... its not a bit long its waaaaaay to long! Yes its accurate, but with it being so long its very easy to make a mistake also, close to impossible to remember!

Victor

recedite wrote: »

That's bollox.

Constructive posts only please

Moderator

Solair

There's a definition problem :

A postcode is the wrong term as postcodes imply something for the use of the post office.

We need a geographical location code! Its uses are far, far beyond sorting letters.

Most postcode systems are just useful for mail sorting. The vast majority of European numerical codes are only accurate to the level of a town / area of a city.

We've a huge opportunity to introduce a piece of 21st century addressing infrastructure that could make logistics very straight forward and actually be a competitive advantage by reducing delivery costs and wasted time, reducing CO2 emissions, improving emergency service response times, improving planning etc etc

But it looks like our administration (as usual) is opting for the most useless solution possible.

ForiegnNational

Article on the Journal - We'll know in three months if Ireland's getting a postcode
http://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-postal-code-system-962045-Jun2013/

Can't believe this still isn't in place! It smacks of either incompetence or vested interest (read "corruption")

OU812

Bet it'll still take years

aimhigh

ForiegnNational wrote: »

Article on the Journal - We'll know in three months if Ireland's getting a postcode
http://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-postal-code-system-962045-Jun2013/

Can't believe this still isn't in place! It smacks of either incompetence or vested interest (read "corruption")

Sure Rabbitte said in Jan 2012 that it would be done and dusted by the end of last year, so I would not expect too much this time either. The tender process that started on 17 Jan 2011 was supposed to be finished by September 2011 has not been concluded..assumed stalled. This could be because they are having difficulty getting agreement with the parties participating. An Post and Tico Mail works (a bulk mail company) are apparently two of the preferred suppliers...

BowWow

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/postcode-system-to-be-implemented-within-18-months-1.1447909

aimhigh

BowWow wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/postcode-system-to-be-implemented-within-18-months-1.1447909

Almost exactly the same statement made by Eamon Ryan via The Irish Times also on the 4th Jan 2011 (2.5 years ago)

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84277167&postcount=1218

It does not look like much has changed in all that time;- and yet another 18 months to wait if anything happens this time either.

The report also makes it clear that An Post ( post office) are controlling the whole thing through the Geodirectory which they have the authority to prevent access by others to. No point in a postcode if only a select few can interpret it and even then at great cost.

So end result is that we are still waiting for the ABC 123 (D04 123) code which is designed to maintain An Post's control of the market.

RobertFoster

BowWow wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/postcode-system-to-be-implemented-within-18-months-1.1447909

It is expected that the addresses will be reflected in the new “alpha-numeric” codes, which will contain a mixture of numbers and letters

Hurrr, numbers are a mathematical object used to count, label, and measure, while letters are a written element of an alphabet.

OU812

I really home they're going to go with a uniform universal format. Every e-commerce site in the world is set up to accept either the US or UK format, if we're one digit/character short or over, they won't accept them.

stoneill

What can be so difficult about adding a post code/ZIP code to a small island?
Russia has had a zip code for nearly 100 years!


Also I suspect it will be implemented quickly now as it will make the LPT easier to track and collect.

aimhigh

stoneill wrote: »

What can be so difficult about adding a post code/ZIP code to a small island?
Russia has had a zip code for nearly 100 years!

Just the problems agreeing with An Post what they will get for use of the GeoDirectory when An Post themselves get the contract to deliver a postcode which will only suit their operations and which their counterparts all over the world mostly achieved over 50 years ago!

.. and of course making sure that the GeoDirectory has to be used to interpret whatever postcode is implemented. Huge conflicts of interest going on here...

Bottom line though is that Irish Times is being used as a vehicle to regularly repeat that "a postcode is on the way" and at no time has any Irish Times reporter question why they are being used to repeat the same empty statements from the Dept Of Communications for the last 10 years! A little bit of investigative journalism would be useful...!

aimhigh

"It is expected that the addresses will be reflected in the new “alpha-numeric” codes"

They can't be serious! It is ambiguous nature of Irish addresses that has caused problems for ambulances in the first place;- not to mention the fact that An Post can and do change addresses when it suits:
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/an-post-favoured-in-ruling-on-addresses-1.547809

If this ever goes ahead it will just mean even more confusion and just so everyone will have to use An Post's Geodirectory to try interpret a code and An Post can decide who can have access to the GeoDirectory in the first place. Currently it costs over €30k per year for a one user license....!

I think this will be going on for quite some time yet - new postal operators like City Post will not readily allow An Post dictate whether they can do their job or not!

I wonder if they'll decide to just copy extend the UK postcode system and make it compatible to avoid duplication of area codes.

Nice bit of work for application writers to create translation scripts between all the current location codes in existence.

OU812

Deleted User wrote: »

I wonder if they'll decide to just copy extend the UK postcode system and make it compatible to avoid duplication of area codes.

Nice bit of work for application writers to create translation scripts between all the current location codes in existence.

Wouldn't happen, it's too sensible.

aimhigh

Deleted User wrote: »

I wonder if they'll decide to just copy extend the UK postcode system and make it compatible to avoid duplication of area codes.

Nice bit of work for application writers to create translation scripts between all the current location codes in existence.

As I said before the UK postcode is not a good option:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=83583120&postcount=1137

OU812

Excellent post aimhigh. Was not aware of many of your details.

BowWow

OU812 wrote: »

Excellent post aimhigh. Was not aware of many of your details.

Agreed - excellent overview.

aimhigh

aimhigh wrote: »

As I said before the UK postcode is not a good option:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=83583120&postcount=1137

I'm not going to disagree with you, but, when have the politicians ever picked the best solution!

aimhigh

OU812 wrote: »

Excellent post aimhigh. Was not aware of many of your details.

Seems Pat Rabbitte is not aware either;- just going along with the words Dept of Communications put in his mouth...

10 years to now and now another 18 months to either find that nothing has happened again or we introduce the D04 123 (45) postcodes which is An Post orientated with most of the UK postcode database dependancies. The €2.5 million quoted for maintenance way be grossly underestimated as it is not reflective of:

1. Annual License Fee to be paid to An Post for use of Geodirectory
2. Cost for An Post to adapt its sorting technology to this code - quoted in consultants reports as around €25million.
3. The cost for marketing to stop people using the postcodes of adjacent areas as they persist with the vanity addresses they have used up to now; especially in Dublin.
4. The cost of litigation when new houses/businesses are allocated undesirable codes and these are challenged in court as property and business values will depend on them - this is a regular feature with the UK and USA postcodes where a special office has to be manned (additional cost) to administer the objections and petitions!
6. The cost for private persons and businesses to change their postcode (deeds, stationary, legal documents) because the code will change as An Post rationalises their sorting and routing operations with time. "D04" is sorting and "123" is routing. Mail is a declining business and An Post already got High Court sanction to change addresses as sorting offices are closed and postman routing changes beacuse of it. This will be a significant cost on an ongoing basis and An Post's competitors will also bare the cost whilst An Post realises additional revenue through GeoDirectory quarterly updates which businesses will continually have to pay for!
7. The cost to individual users of Navigation devices which will require a database update to use the code in the first place and then regular updates to ensure it is kept up to date to reflect new builds or reorganisation because of changes to sorting. This will be an ongoing cost and if not done either a postcode will not be recognised at all or the user will be brought to the wrong destination completely!
8. The cost of applications for a postcode when a building is newly built or occupied - An Post will have to issue the code and you can be sure there will be a cost. This process could take weeks/months to complete.

and many other costs as yet undocumented which in Total could be 10 times the €2.5million quoted!

Finally, it should be realised that this type of code only supports occupied buildings. It does not support entrances to properties, tourist sites where there are no buildings, accident sites on roads, SOS phones, caravan/camping sites, temporary halting sites, grain silos, vessels alongside piers/marinas, scenic spots, outdoor events, fishing spots, picnic sites etc etc etc.... as the code could never have enough redunancy or flexibility to support all of these...

but sure we are used to waiting.................. and often just to be disappointed!

aimhigh

Mr Rabbitte will tell ministerial colleagues the incoming system will be the most modern in Europe.

More correctly should read.... "most modern old-fashioned postcode in Europe"

this ABC 123 (D04 123) model was first suggested in 2005 before Smartphones, Google Maps and Satnavs were available for use in Ireland!

It was first introduced in the UK in the 1960's and in Northern Ireland in the 1970's;- modern me a*se!

aimhigh

I highlighted the Public safety issues related to An Post's changing addresses (which would be reinforced by this D04 123 postcode) back in March:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=83712373&postcount=1166

aimhigh

Extended details of problems with UK postcode which the D04 123 (45) proposal for Ireland will inherit:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=83754601&postcount=1199

recedite

aimhigh wrote: »

Mr Rabbitte will tell ministerial colleagues the incoming system will be the most modern in Europe.

More correctly should read.... "most modern old-fashioned postcode in Europe"

this ABC 123 (D04 123) model was first suggested in 2005 before Smartphones, Google Maps and Satnavs were available for use in Ireland!

There is something odd going on there; what is described in the article seems more like a GPS "unique identifier" location code than a UK style postcode adapted for the initials of the Irish city (D04 123)

Irish Times wrote:

Unique code
Under the plan, householders and business owners will know their unique code within a year. The system is designed to improve the efficiency of delivery of post and parcels, but it will also assist in the provision of public services.
Householders and business owners will be able to give the unique code to service providers, such as ambulance dispatchers, to ensure their location is easily found.

If this quote is literally true, the code in itself is the unique identifier, without the need to include a house number and street address.

Davebfo

Ireland will be one of the few nations to use letters and numbers in their postcodes.

Countries in green use alphanumeric:

aimhigh

recedite wrote: »

There is something odd going on there; what is described in the article seems more like a GPS "unique identifier" location code than a UK style postcode adapted for the initials of the Irish city (D04 123)


If this quote is literally true, the code in itself is the unique identifier, without the need to include a house number and street address.

I think we can be sure that it is D04 123 (4/5)

1. that's what the ongoing tender spec is for (with 4/5 as later option)- any change and they would have to start the process (2.5 years old) all over again!
2. The statement mentions that it will "not spell the death knell for Dublin’s most prestigious property districts such as D4 and D6"
3. It also states that "It is expected that the addresses will be reflected in the new “alpha-numeric” codes

So all of that part is very much in line with the many many statement on the subject before. However, there is a clear statement that precise code with the "4/5" element will be in the public domain which is definitely welcome for Public safety. However there are many issues:
1. The Data Commissioner has not publicly supported this.
2. The Postal Act does not permit a precise postcode
3. The ABC Code refelects An Post's postal sorting operations and is therefore not independent as the specification required.
4. The Code can only be interpreted by use of An Post's Geodirectory which to date very few can afford. Legislation would be required to ensure availability and reduce cost.
5. The 4/5 element of the code does not have the redundancy to extend to non building related codes and could not be created live - say at the scene of an accident - it would require an application - a bit like planning - weeks/months of a process!
6. Plus all the issues I have quoted earlier with a UK type postcode which this is more or less the same as.

With respect to the fact that it is alphnumeric - this should not be an issue provided the code is predictably so - eg see Canadian postcode - if not it will cause lots of confusion and errors and I am not sure that D04 123 45 has that capability especially since the 2nd and 3rd characters appear to allow both numbers and letters as possibly the 7th and 8th do also.

I think Rabbitte has reacted to pressure for a precise code in the public domain as a result of ambulance address issues but I am not sure he has brought the Data Commissioner and the legislators with him on it yet - hence another 18 months and the rider that the final decision has not been made by Government yet. Futhermore I am not entirely sure that An Post will support it as it could mean an "open postcode" movement such as happened in the UK and other countries will collect the codes with their respective addresses and "free" the Geodirectory database which earns them a lot of revenue and they were planning a lot more from postcodes!

So there appears no doubt that Pat Rabbitte is supporting DO4 123 4/5 but whether others are onside with this or not is not at all certain!

recedite

Its all a bit of a muddle. It could be that Rabbitte is trying to change the spec. halfway through the process. Or it could be that the newspaper has picked it up wrong.

aimhigh

recedite wrote: »

Its all a bit of a muddle. It could be that Rabbitte is trying to change the spec. halfway through the process. Or it could be that the newspaper has picked it up wrong.

hard to know - perhaps he is trying to bounce An Post into agreement after 2.5 years and 10 years of controlling the show... well done to him for finally taking charge ( or Dept Of Comms for getting worried) but there is a lot of legal stuff to sort !

transistor

I've been interested in this subject for several years. I looked into Loc8 but was disappointed that it didn't use a public algorithm and, for some strange reason that I couldn't make out, when you want to reduce the accuracy of the code you drop two characters out of the middle instead of at the end of the code.

I recently found openpostcode.org and am impressed with the simplicity of the system. The basic 5x5 grid patter can be nested as many times as required to get the desired level of accuracy. I can get an eight character code for any location but by dropping characters off the end I can be deliberately vague. The code (with the exception of the check character) can be worked out from a printed map with a grid overlay! No computer required! Similarly the same map can be used to find any location by following the grid (obviously with resolution / number of code characters subject to the scale and print size).

A couple of points:

• The "openpostcode" name is a bit misleading as it's really a location code.
• I haven't seen anyone suggest how a unique code would be applied to my house (for any of the proposed location codes). Would you use my gateway, front door, centre of building? Has anyone any ideas on this?
• As above, for government purposes someone would need to assign a single code to my address. Who would control that and notify me?
• Who is behind openpostcode.org?
• Where do we apply pressure to the government to choose an open system?

I've also noted the flame war between Loc8 and openpostcode. This is a waste of time and the personal nature of the flames undermines the cause. Pity.