National Postcodes to be introduced

aimhigh

I think you are missing the point Transistor......

There will be no Location code - its going to be ABC 123 as recommended in 2006 and the opportunity to change that has now passed!

Mr Simpson

Quite related, but how hard would it be to add street names to rural addresses? I hadn't realised how many addresses are just Townland, County until I started in my current job. Absolute bloody nightmare.

aimhigh

Some Problems with postcodes and streetnames in Northern Ireland

transistor

Aimhigh, what do we know about the proposed system, then? I've only seen what's in the newspapers and can't find anything definitive on the web. What I saw, I didn't like. It looks like a town code followed by three digits giving a max of 31 x 31 square zones for that code. If a river or motorway runs through the zone you could have the same postcode on both sides even though it could be a long distance by road between the two. That won't help delivery of parcels, etc.

aimhigh

transistor wrote: »

Aimhigh, what do we know about the proposed system, then?

This thread started in 2009 and there are multiple consultants reports since 2005 on the web - happy reading!

recedite

• I haven't seen anyone suggest how a unique code would be applied to my house (for any of the proposed location codes). Would you use my gateway, front door, centre of building? Has anyone any ideas on this?
• As above, for government purposes someone would need to assign a single code to my address. Who would control that and notify me?

You would choose yourself. If its a very large building, choose the main entrance. The point is, you make it easy to find for someone using sat nav/gps. Why would you need govt. to assign the code. Does govt. assign the names of houses in rural areas? If govt. asks for your address, you give it to them, not the other way round.

antoinolachtnai

You need a central body to ensure that:

- every building does indeed have a unique code

- to ensure that there is quality assurance as regards accuracy

- to register each code with a building address, so that the code can be verified against the address when it is used.

Government, in the form of local authorities does have responsibilities in relation to assigning addresses as it stands.

ManAboutCouch

To me this is the key quote from the Irish Times article:

Mr Rabbitte will bring a memo to Cabinet on Tuesday explaining the status of the proposal to allocate exclusive codes with seven or eight characters to every letterbox in the State.

If that's right then the proposed system won't be area based, it will be at either building level, with every building getting it's own postcode, or at address point level with every address getting a unique code, even if they're at the same XY coordinate (think of multi storey apartment buildings).

As an aside, the latest version of GeoDirectory has a new table for 'Additional Features' which they say will contain things like bus stops, street furniture and so on.

recedite

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You need a central body to ensure that:

- every building does indeed have a unique code

- to ensure that there is quality assurance as regards accuracy

- to register each code with a building address, so that the code can be verified against the address when it is used.

Government, in the form of local authorities does have responsibilities in relation to assigning addresses as it stands.

I don't agree with any of this.....at least in the context of postcodes or location codes, the purpose of which is to make it easier for someone to find your house.
In the context of the Property Tax, yes, the govt. will need a register of every building and a reference no. for each building. Currently the 11 digit MPRN number is used for this kind of thing, on the basis that just about every building is connected to the national grid, and those that aren't can be assigned a virtual MPRN number.

OU812

Doesn't each building already have a unique code, as in the number & street address ?

They should legislate for all streets including rural to be names & buildings to be numbered. Sure live in Dunroamin all you like once it has a number & street after it.

Then introduce a county code so that the wrong street/townname cannot be mistaken.

Mr. Murphy,
"Dunroamin",
123, Long Street,
Cavan, CN 14,
Ireland.

-> CN after the car registration (may as well try to keep some uniformity), 14 after the Opencode square for cavan.

Does that work ?

ManAboutCouch

OU812 wrote: »

Doesn't each building already have a unique code, as in the number & street address ?

No. In much of rural Ireland there are no road names or house numbers. The addresses in those areas are based on townlands, meaning that only the local postman knows who lives in which house. Approximately 32% of Irish Addresses are not unique.

recedite

Rural houses don't have numbers. Some suburban houses have names and/or numbers. You can rename your house whenever you like, without having to ask local govt. or anyone else.

antoinolachtnai

recedite wrote: »

I don't agree with any of this.....at least in the context of postcodes or location codes, the purpose of which is to make it easier for someone to find your house.
In the context of the Property Tax, yes, the govt. will need a register of every building and a reference no. for each building. Currently the 11 digit MPRN number is used for this kind of thing, on the basis that just about every building is connected to the national grid, and those that aren't can be assigned a virtual MPRN number.

It's all a question of requirements. You have one requirement and it is a very valid one, for a precise geographical location.

Dervice providers like the ambulances, utility companies, express carriers and so on have related but different, or at least additional requirements. As well as needing a geographical location, they need consistency and accuracy.

The MPRN isn't really used for that kind of thing. No one other than the electricity companies has access to the related database. The related database isn't that helpful, because the addresses aren't particularly consistent or accurate.

murpho999

OU812 wrote: »

Doesn't each building already have a unique code, as in the number & street address ?

They should legislate for all streets including rural to be names & buildings to be numbered. Sure live in Dunroamin all you like once it has a number & street after it.

Then introduce a county code so that the wrong street/townname cannot be mistaken.

Mr. Murphy,
"Dunroamin",
123, Long Street,
Cavan, CN 14,
Ireland.

-> CN after the car registration (may as well try to keep some uniformity), 14 after the Opencode square for cavan.

Does that work ?

What's the benefit of having CN when Cavan is already there?

murpho999

murpho999 wrote: »

What's the benefit of having CN when Cavan is already there?

If you use a UK style system with the full code all you need is the house number and the code.

eg
P Malone
14
CN14 5AQ

It'll be delivered

recedite

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

ambulances, utility companies, express carriers and so on have related but different, or at least additional requirements. As well as needing a geographical location, they need consistency and accuracy.

No, they just want to be able to find the house with the minimum of fuss.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The MPRN isn't really used for that kind of thing. No one other than the electricity companies has access to the related database. The related database isn't that helpful, because the addresses aren't particularly consistent or accurate.

Various agencies use the MPRN database; eg for water charges, property tax, BER certificates. Its an ID number for the property, as opposed to a way of finding the property.

You apparently support An Post Geodirectory, and handing over various functions to it. To achieve consistency of addresses, you would force people to use only the address An Post agreed to give them, which would be dictated by proximity to An Post sorting offices, not the actual townland people lived in. This would be backed up by High Court rulings allowing An Post to hold back mail deliveries from non-compliant people.
Next, the standardised address would be linked to a unique ID number of the house, and this information sold to private marketing companies, without the consent of the householder. The State might also be presented with a massive annual bill towards the maintenance of the database. The whole geodirectory enterprise could then be hived off to private interests as a highly profitable private monopoly of all citizen's address info. Or else simply kept by An Post to ensure their dominance and flout the EU ideals of a deregulated postal system with private operators.

Basically, I don't mind having an ID number for the house for the purposes of paying taxes and bills related to the property, but I prefer to choose the name and address myself, and when I want to give out the location code I will do that myself too, to whatever accuracy is warranted. I'll happily give that info to An Post because I want to receive letters. And also to any private couriers or postal services. There is no need for any maintenance costs to the State, at all, related to my address.
If Geodirectory or any other marketing company want to match my address with my location information (and any other personal preferences or information they may have compiled) and then sell it on to third parties, its probably beyond my control to stop them, but I will not be compelled to facilitate them.

Curly Judge

Deleted User wrote: »

If you use a UK style system with the full code all you need is the house number and the code.

eg
P Malone
14
CN14 5AQ

It'll be delivered

Must disagree!
If it was addressed : P. Malone
Ballygobackwards
Ballygoforwards
Co. Cavan.
it would also be delivered.
Because the postman has been coming to my house for years.
A new or relief postman will struggle to find me with all the inefficiencies and delayed mail that that entails.
It will not tell an ambulance driver or a courier how to find my house.
It's all such a shame!
For once in the miserable infrastructural history of this country we could have pole vaulted into the lead with a good location code system but it seems that again we will clutch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Curly Judge

Curly Judge wrote: »

Must disagree!
If it was addressed : P. Malone
Ballygobackwards
Ballygoforwards
Co. Cavan.
it would also be delivered.
Because the postman has been coming to my house for years.
A new or relief postman will struggle to find me with all the inefficiencies and delayed mail that that entails.
It will not tell an ambulance driver or a courier how to find my house.
It's all such a shame!
For once in the miserable infrastructural history of this country we could have pole vaulted into the lead with a good location code system but it seems that again we will clutch defeat from the jaws of victory.

All postcode systems work when overlaid onto a gps location system, because that is what they essentially are.

Some systems such as LOC8 just use an absolute location translation that bears no relation to the local topology, where as district based postcodes group addresses from a place under one prefix group of numbers or letters. Two houses on opposite sides of a river without a bridge in the area would have almost identical LOC8 codes but would likely have very different postcodes thus alerting people as to which side of the river to look.

antoinolachtnai

recedite wrote: »

No, they just want to be able to find the house with the minimum of fuss.

This is not really true. This is only part of what they want to do. They also want to verify the address before attempting a delivery, because the cost of attempting a delivery is significant. They also want to group items which are going to the same or similar addresses, so they can plan routes.

Various agencies use the MPRN database; eg for water charges, property tax, BER certificates. Its an ID number for the property, as opposed to a way of finding the property.

They collect it. But do they actually use it, other than as some sort of vaguely unique identifier? As far as I can tell, they do not. (I am pretty familiar with the ESB MPRN database and that whilst it is certainly unique and has many good quality, it is about as useful as a chocolate teaspoon if you want to consistently and accurately pinpoint locations. It is not in fact an ID number for a property. It is an ID number for a meter point, which is not the same. )

You apparently support An Post Geodirectory, and handing over various functions to it. To achieve consistency of addresses, you would force people to use only the address An Post agreed to give them, which would be dictated by proximity to An Post sorting offices, not the actual townland people lived in. This would be backed up by High Court rulings allowing An Post to hold back mail deliveries from non-compliant people.

It does not follow from the the requirement for consistency and accuracy that all the things you state are the case.

As it happens, it has always been the case that An Post have had a database of postal addresses. This has been the case for at least 60 years, and probably far longer. A postal address is just that. It is not a legal address.

Next, the standardised address would be linked to a unique ID number of the house, and this information sold to private marketing companies, without the consent of the householder. The State might also be presented with a massive annual bill towards the maintenance of the database.

The whole point of this would be to deliver services consistently and accurate.

The State already bears the cost of maintaining a large number of address databases. There is nothing new there. The opportunity is for saving, not expenditure.

The whole geodirectory enterprise could then be hived off to private interests as a highly profitable private monopoly of all citizen's address info. Or else simply kept by An Post to ensure their dominance and flout the EU ideals of a deregulated postal system with private operators.

I suppose all this could be true, but it has nothing to do with anything else we are discussing.

Basically, I don't mind having an ID number for the house for the purposes of paying taxes and bills related to the property, but I prefer to choose the name and address myself, and when I want to give out the location code I will do that myself too, to whatever accuracy is warranted.

You are proposing that addresses be set by the person who happens to live at a location, rather than being determined by where the location is actually located. This to me does not make a lot of sense.

I'll happily give that info to An Post because I want to receive letters. And also to any private couriers or postal services. There is no need for any maintenance costs to the State, at all, related to my address.

The State needs to maintain an address database in any case to carry out its functions. There is a real cost to this that cannot be avoided. Using a geographical code to provide information about where your house is won't change this requirement at all. (It might make it slightly easier in some respects, but won't change the fundamental requirement to have an accurate, consistent database to carry out public administration.)

Markcheese

At the moment people pretty much make up their own address anyway,my parents house (in a rural area) has a very different address to the house across the road.... My own house (in a village has the address that was on it when I bought it... Which the previous owners made up ....
Have heard of address of housing estates in Dublin being made up by developer to get a higher price ... Ie be in a different postal area...
It'd probably help the postie/courier/taxi/ambulance if house number or name or even name of the occupier were clearly visible from the road... (mine isn't though )

recedite

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

As it happens, it has always been the case that An Post have had a database of postal addresses. This has been the case for at least 60 years, and probably far longer. A postal address is just that. It is not a legal address.

I'm aware of that, but what we are seeing now is a bid by An Post to make themselves and their private database the legal addressing authority for The State, and to further that aim by installing themselves as chief advisors on the implementation body of the proposed new postcode/location code system.
According to Comreg, "An Post in the recently liberalised market where it no longer enjoys a monopoly is trying to establish itself as the addressing authority for the State”.

Also you are incorrect in continuing to assert that the MPRN database is not actively used by the State as a unique identifier for properties.
If you fail to register for water charges or property tax, they will track you down by matching every paid-up registration to its MPRN number, ticking those off, and then sending letters out to the MPRN addresses of those who have not paid.
If you claim a govt.grant to put a solar panel on your roof this year, you cannot claim another next year by giving someone else's name and a different variant of your address. The grant is tied to the unchanging MPRN number of the house, and only paid once.

antoinolachtnai

There is no requirement to provide an MPRN when you pay property tax. If Revenue tries to match street addresses to MPRNs and then go through the database to figure out what they are missing, they will certainly have their work cut out. It's not that it isn't possible, but it's not simple. The SEAI grant scheme is a very small thing and is practically over. You could give a neighbour's MPRN if you wanted in a rural area, SEAI wouldn't really know any different (although the whole thing would be fraudulent obviously).

ComReg's direction to An Post and the court case which followed was hopeless and stupid. Comreg lost the case in spite of having drawn the most conservative, pro-authority judicial review judge they could have gotten. Comreg's claim (which was essentially that Comreg should be able to dictate what addresses should be acceptable, on an ad hoc basis) was just ridiculous. It would have been different if Comreg or another party were the addressing authority and An Post were trying to usurp them. But that wasn't the case. The whole thing was (and the appeal to the Supreme Court continues to be) a fiasco and a waste of taxpayer funds. Comreg's 'defence' of the action is utterly irrelevant to anything.

byrnefm

I see it was mentioned on the RTÉ online news this morning:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0703/460274-post-codes/

No update on the Department's own website yet:
http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Communications/Postal/Postcodes.htm

larchill

Will this become another merry-go-round ...

recedite

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

There is no requirement to provide an MPRN when you pay property tax. If Revenue tries to match street addresses to MPRNs and then go through the database to figure out what they are missing, they will certainly have their work cut out. It's not that it isn't possible, but it's not simple.

They started out by assigning their own unique identifier number for each property, intending to build a new database from scratch, which was a bit of a mistake because now they are having to compare to the MPRN database to fill in the gaps of people who haven't paid.

The septic tank tax /registration on the other hand started out gathering the MPRN info at the start of the process, using the existing database for the unique identifier. They also require the customer to declare whether they have a mains water or a well water connection.
This means there is a record of mains water connections matched to MPRN numbers throughout rural Ireland...to be used for the incoming water charges.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The SEAI grant scheme is a very small thing and is practically over. You could give a neighbour's MPRN if you wanted in a rural area, SEAI wouldn't really know any different

The names of different grant schemes come and go, but there is no reason to believe they are all practically over; the drive for improved energy efficiency originates at EU level.
Giving a neighbours MPRN would not work; each grant is also tied to a BER cert, which itself is tied to the same MPRN number, and the BER assessor verifies the MPRN and address during an actual site visit.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Comreg's claim (which was essentially that Comreg should be able to dictate what addresses should be acceptable, on an ad hoc basis) was just ridiculous

Unlike An Post, Comreg was not trying to dictate what addresses should be acceptable. It was merely defending the right of a customer to use their traditional address, which was their actual geographical address. An Post like to impose new addresses on people based on proximity to their own mail sorting infastructure. This is not acceptable, given that they are no longer a govt. department.

There is no problem choosing the address listed on the MPRN database. If I want to change the name of the house, or use an old townland name in the address, or I think the address is wrongly listed, change is only a phonecall away.

marmurr1916

Deleted User wrote: »

If you use a UK style system with the full code all you need is the house number and the code.

eg
P Malone
14
CN14 5AQ

It'll be delivered

Here's hoping no. 14 isn't an apartment block with 100 different apartments...

The problem with the UK postcode system is that it identifies up to 15 different street addresses, but an apartment block or an office block can be one of those 15 addresses, even if the blocks have multiple individual addresses within.

In addition, individual buildings/departments within complex sites, such as universities and hospitals (which might even have their own postcodes) are generally not identified separately by the UK's postcode system, although some larger sites do have their own unique postcodes.

However, those problems could easily be solved by the addition of one extra character.

ManAboutCouch

byrnefm wrote: »

No update on the Department's own website yet:
http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Communications/Postal/Postcodes.htm

There is a small snippet on the Press Releases page: (http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/2013/Minister+Rabbitte+briefs+Cabinet+on+National+Postcode+Procurement.htm)

Minister Rabbitte last night briefed his Cabinet colleagues on his plans for a national postcode.

Dublin, 3rd July 2013

He informed the Cabinet that a competitive tendering process is now at its final stage and that, after consideration by his Department of tenders received, he hopes to make a definitive proposal to colleagues in September. “The final tender for a national postcode system has issued last week; the responses will be evaluated by the Department during August and I will bring a comprehensive proposal to Government for approval in September”, Minister Rabbitte said.

I imagine the tender is only being issued to the pre-qualified consortiums and might be covered by a Non-Disclosure Agreement.

marmurr1916

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Here's hoping no. 14 isn't an apartment block with 100 different apartments...

The problem with the UK postcode system is that it identifies up to 15 different street addresses, but an apartment block or an office block can be one of those 15 addresses, even if the blocks have multiple individual addresses within.

In addition, individual buildings/departments within complex sites, such as universities and hospitals (which might even have their own postcodes) are generally not identified separately by the UK's postcode system, although some larger sites do have their own unique postcodes.

However, those problems could easily be solved by the addition of one extra character.

The 14 in the example would be the apartment number and the postcode would be for the apartment building, it's not unknown for a larger building to have several postcodes.

L1011

recedite wrote: »

If you fail to register for water charges or property tax, they will track you down by matching every paid-up registration to its MPRN number, ticking those off, and then sending letters out to the MPRN addresses of those who have not paid.

I paid property tax, but never provided an MPRN. I'm fairly sure I didn't at the previous house with the HHC either. I don't *know* the MPRN for the old house and only have the new one written down somewhere from when I got the power turned on.

Something tells me Revenue don't have a complete or accurate MPRN-to-property mapping at all.

recedite

MYOB wrote: »

Something tells me Revenue don't have a complete or accurate MPRN-to-property mapping at all.

If anyone does, it would be ESB Networks.
My point however is that the State does not need to spend money "mapping" a new property database. The MPRN database exists. Location codes exist. What is the advantage of spending millions annually to have a combined (mapped) version?