National Postcodes to be introduced

aimhigh

OU812 wrote: »

So everyone's seen this, this morning?

So as I said a few days ago - another deadline missed and just more statements of "its on the way" - same as has been heard repeatedly since the first deadline was missed in Jan 2008.

In June the Minister said there would be a decision by the end of September. The Journal report and the Dail statement of last week suggests that the process to introduce a postcode in Ireland which started 10 years ago and is over 50 years behind the rest of the world, remains "ongoing"

Perhaps one of these days, members of the press and the people of Ireland will realise that the Dept Of Communications, its Minister(s) and PA Consulting (who are still being paid on a contract which started in 2010) are not capable of making this happen!

LeinsterDub

You have to expect a few delays when you're trying to introduce the cutting edge of 1960's technology :mad:

SpaceTime

Is it actually going to be a useful system though?

Do we know anything about it yet?
Seems odd we've had no public information about it.

aimhigh

SpaceTime wrote: »

Is it actually going to be a useful system though?

Do we know anything about it yet?
Seems odd we've had no public information about it.

A lot has been written since 2005 and before. All the official stuff is here: http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Communications/Postal/Postcodes.htm

Equally there has been a lot of criticism:
http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/committees30thdail/j-communicationsenr/reports/20100331.pdf

And, critically, the Data Commissioner stated in 2006 that a postcode that pointed to individual properties would present a privacy issue and he has not changed his related objection since!

So we do know a lot as well as:
1. More Ministers have tried and failed to implement it than any other national system
2. It is the most delayed national system ever; the UK introduced postcodes 50 years ago.
3. Minister Eamon Ryan said that he and his department in their postcode proposals had developed something better than GPS.
4. It has the record for the most missed deadlines for implementation ever - since Jan 2008
5. It has the most media headlines announcing its imminent arrival over the longest period ever!
6. It has the longest running national tender process ever - started Jan 2011
7. It has the longest over-run tender ever - now 2 years past the planned award date
8. If it goes ahead as planned, it will be the oldest technological solution ever introduced in the 21st century.
9. It has the longest running thread ever running on boards.ie !
and...
10. D4 is to be maintained in it too...

yes we know a lot!

aimhigh

aimhigh wrote: »

A lot has been written since 2005 and before. All the official stuff is here: http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Communications/Postal/Postcodes.htm

Equally there has been a lot of criticism:
http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/committees30thdail/j-communicationsenr/reports/20100331.pdf

And, critically, the Data Commissioner stated in 2006 that a postcode that pointed to individual properties would present a privacy issue and he has not changed his related objection since!

So we do know a lot as well as:
1. More Ministers have tried and failed to implement it than any other national system
2. It is the most delayed national system ever; the UK introduced postcodes 50 years ago.
3. Minister Eamon Ryan said that he and his department in their postcode proposals had developed something better than GPS.
4. It has the record for the most missed deadlines for implementation ever - since Jan 2008
5. It has the most media headlines announcing its imminent arrival over the longest period ever!
6. It has the longest running national tender process ever - started Jan 2011
7. It has the longest over-run tender ever - now 2 years past the planned award date
8. If it goes ahead as planned, it will be the oldest technological solution ever introduced in the 21st century.
9. It has the longest running thread ever running on boards.ie !
and...
10. D4 is to be maintained in it too...

yes we know a lot!

oh and we know it's "ongoing" !

LeinsterDub

I'm sure it's been posted before but just so we release the the enormity of this herculean task facing us

I mean only large swathes of Africa have a post code system along with basically all of Europe expect some random country to the west , most of asia, most of the americas none of the antarctic though !

Correction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postcodes_in_the_United_Kingdom#Overseas_territories it's BIQQ 1ZZ at least for the British Antarctic Territory

ManAboutCouch

I wonder how many of those countries have address-point level postcodes?

aimhigh

ManAboutCouch wrote: »

I wonder how many of those countries have address-point level postcodes?

all those that have unambiguous addresses and property numbers that go with their postcodes do!

aimhigh

The September deadline formally set by Pat Rabbitte himself to make a decision on postcodes has now been officially missed once again:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/postcode-proposals-to-be-assessed-29392423.html

3 Ministers and many deadlines over 5.5 years....... all missed without even an attempt at an excuse!

Will the Independent now revisit their article today and make the Minister and his civil servants account for another deadline missed without explanation?... Probably not;- they and others will most likely just wait for the next announcement that postcodes are imminent and report it again without question! They all must believe we have very short memories!

Meanwhile, people's lives are at risk as An Post continue to change addresses making it harder and harder for the emergency services to find them!

If we can't have postcodes to resolve the ambiguity and the An Post geographic distractions deliberately planted in addresses, then the Irish people should insist that an independent addressing agency be established to sort the problem once and for all away from the control of An Post.

Don't forget that in all their years of service, An Post have never taken even one step to improve Irish addressing, instead they went to the High Court to affirm their rights to make them worse..!

Is this just another deadline missed that will ensure this thread goes on for yet another 4 years
OR
is it now the last straw that gives the camel the hump?! :mad:

Curly Judge

aimhigh wrote: »

The September deadline formally set by Pat Rabbitte himself to make a decision on postcodes has now been officially missed once again:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/postcode-proposals-to-be-assessed-29392423.html

3 Ministers and many deadlines over 5.5 years....... all missed without even an attempt at an excuse!

Will the Independent now revisit their article today and make the Minister and his civil servants account for another deadline missed without explanation?... Probably not;- they and others will most likely just wait for the next announcement that postcodes are imminent and report it again without question! They all must believe we have very short memories!

Meanwhile, people's lives are at risk as An Post continue to change addresses making it harder and harder for the emergency services to find them!

If we can't have postcodes to resolve the ambiguity and the An Post geographic distractions deliberately planted in addresses, then the Irish people should insist that an independent addressing agency be established to sort the problem once and for all away from the control of An Post.

Don't forget that in all their years of service, An Post have never taken even one step to improve Irish addressing, instead they went to the High Court to affirm their rights to make them worse..!

Is this just another deadline missed that will ensure this thread goes on for yet another 4 years
OR
is it now the last straw that gives the camel the hump?! :mad:

You all know the old story of the camel being a horse designed by a committee?

antoinolachtnai

As I understand from reading the documentation, the proposal is basically to establish a national address database and the result would be that it would be established on a free-standing basis as you say. This is what I'd imagine is taking all the time.

I feel your sentiments re addresses, but the geodirectory of today is actually a vast improvement on what it was even 6 or 7 years ago.

Of course geodirectory isn't addresses per se; it's postal addresses, which are not the same thing.

aimhigh

Geodirectory is no more than a distraction:

1. It's IP is held by An Post
2. It was not liberalised with the mail
3. An Post can and have denied their competition access to it
4. It costs multiples of 10's of thousands of Euros to license
5. It contains An Post postal addresses rather than geogrographic addresses.
6. Unlike the equvalent in the UK, it does not have to be made available to all seeking to use it at a reasonable cost.

Unless all of the above change, Geodirectory is no more than a distraction to a independent postcoding system which allows everyone an equal chance of identifying and locating any Irish property.

antoinolachtnai

Everything you say is true. I was simply responding to your remark that An Post have done nothing to improve addresses. At the operational level, the addresses that An Post promulgate are significantly better quality than they were 10 years ago.

aimhigh

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Everything you say is true. I was simply responding to your remark that An Post have done nothing to improve addresses. At the operational level, the addresses that An Post promulgate are significantly better quality than they were 10 years ago.

That's not at all true.

What you are trying to say is that the currency and fidelity of the content of the Geodirectory has improved.. and that may indeed be the case!

However, whilst An Post has commercially benefitted from becoming the defacto authority on addresses in Ireland, they have never once made any effort to improve the quality of addresses, to remove ambiguity or to manage how they are structured or created in a way that is useful to everyone. In fact, they have frequently dumbed down the geographic fidelity of addresses and enhanced their relationship to their own postal sorting operations. This may have suited them, but it has made the use of addresses more and more confusing and difficult for their competition, the Emergency services, businesses and the Irish people in general.

Like the phone book, the Geodirectory is a nice list of Irish addresses (more complete that previously as you say) but the addresses themselves are not very useful!

Once again, this is no more than a distraction, the desire for postcodes in Ireland is to satisfy the needs for everyone except of An Post.

Why has another deadline been missed and when will there be an independent agency to put this right!

LeinsterDub

The procurement process has been ongoing since early 2011. The length of time taken to reach this point in the procurement is a function of the complexity of the project. We expect to conclude in the next few weeks and the final decision on whether to proceed with the implementation of a national postcode will be one for Government and will be based on appropriate financial, technical and operational considerations.

Got this reply from the Department today . (Italics added by me)


In 1962 JFK said

We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too."

On July 20, 1969 a man walked on the moon. So clearly the implementation of a national postcode is a more complex project that going to the poxy moon.

ManAboutCouch

aimhigh wrote: »

5. It contains An Post postal addresses rather than geogrographic addresses.

FYI, GeoDirectory has contained both "Official Postal Address", as they call it, and Geographic addresses since late last year.

aimhigh

ManAboutCouch wrote: »

FYI, GeoDirectory has contained both "Official Postal Address", as they call it, and Geographic addresses since late last year.

Both of which are ambiguous and no effort to resolve has ever been made!

aimhigh

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The procurement process has been ongoing since early 2011. The length of time taken to reach this point in the procurement is a function of the complexity of the project. We expect to conclude in the next few weeks and the final decision on whether to proceed with the implementation of a national postcode will be one for Government and will be based on appropriate financial, technical and operational considerations.

same statement as made in June - not good enough anymore!

amtc

Nothing will happen until the court case between An Post and ComReg is concluded. An Post won in the High Court, and ComReg has appealed to the Supreme Court.

http://www.courts.ie/__80256F2B00356A6B.nsf/0/ABD72020A7B7504E80257A9B0039E3EF?Open

oppenheimer1

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Got this reply from the Department today . (Italics added by me)


In 1962 JFK said


On July 20, 1969 a man walked on the moon. So clearly the implementation of a national postcode is a more complex project that going to the poxy moon.

Yes but we're not spending 5% of the national budget on these codes. It's the complexity in addition to the resources allocated to solve the task that's the reason for it taking so long.

LeinsterDub

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Yes but we're not spending 5% of the national budget on these codes. It's the complexity in addition to the resources allocated to solve the task that's the reason for it taking so long.

The reason it's taking so long is Politics pure and simple .Every new minister has thrown out the work of the one before so they can be praised fully for delivering us the technology of the 60's

ManAboutCouch

An Post wins tender! Oh, it's for the Lottery: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/an-post-and-camelot-to-run-lottery-after-405m-bid-1.1549667

Nice chunk of change all the same.

aimhigh

ManAboutCouch wrote: »

An Post wins tender! Oh, it's for the Lottery: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/an-post-and-camelot-to-run-lottery-after-405m-bid-1.1549667

Nice chunk of change all the same.

There is not much they are involved in that is not being challenged!
http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2013/1004/world/rehab-to-sue-state-in-1bn-lottery-case-245248.html

ManAboutCouch

Looks like we're entering the endgame. There is an article in today's Sunday Business Post (not avail online, photo of it here: http://i.imgur.com/LUv2hVu.jpg) which states that Pat Rabbitte is bringing the postcode proposal to cabinet this week.

aimhigh

ManAboutCouch wrote: »

Looks like we're entering the endgame. There is an article in today's Sunday Business Post (not avail online, photo of it here: http://i.imgur.com/LUv2hVu.jpg) which states that Pat Rabbitte is bringing the postcode proposal to cabinet this week.

"complexities could arise in rural areas"

so nothing has really changed, I would not expect anything anytime soon!

Leonard Shelby

aimhigh wrote: »

"complexities could arise in rural areas"

so nothing has really changed, I would not expect anything anytime soon!

"Pat Rabbitte is expected to brief his cabinet colleagues this week"

"Rabbitte wants a new postcode with a unique identifier for every dwelling and premises across the state"

So no need to speculate any more, it's obvious that unique postcodes are going to announced next week. They must have found a way to do it that didn't include your 8-point plan. You must agree that if they do announce this then it's good news all round!

aimhigh

Leonard Shelby wrote: »

"Pat Rabbitte is expected to brief his cabinet colleagues this week"

"Rabbitte wants a new postcode with a unique identifier for every dwelling and premises across the state"

So no need to speculate any more, it's obvious that unique postcodes are going to announced next week. They must have found a way to do it that didn't include your 8-point plan. You must agree that if they do announce this then it's good news all round!

stating that you "want" a unique identifier is whole different proposition than "it will be" - political speak is very important - especially with the rider ( as I mentioned in my last post) that "complexities could arise in rural areas".

It is in rural areas that a solution is most needed and if after 10 years of discussion the issues cannot be resolved then there is not much to look forward to! ABC 123 (1) (7 or 8 characters its says) cannot indentify every property (and other delivery points) in the State. The Data Commissioner has not changed his opinion on unique identifiers hence "want" instead of "will"!

Evey time there is an media statement designed to make it look like something is happening and to help thread water, reporters just report as heard without question or reference to the many many many similar previous reports and boards.ie contributors get excited as if they have never heard the same ever before!

The history of this subject suggests another long wait - meanwhile, as intented, we all sit back and wait again without question....!

Leonard Shelby

aimhigh wrote: »

stating that you "want" a unique identifier is whole different proposition than "it will be" - political speak is very important - especially with the rider ( as I mentioned in my last post) that "complexities could arise in rural areas".

It is in rural areas that a solution is most needed and if after 10 years of discussion the issues cannot be resolved then there is not much to look forward to! ABC 123 (1) (7 or 8 characters its says) cannot indentify every property (and other delivery points) in the State. The Data Commissioner has not changed his opinion on unique identifiers hence "want" instead of "will"!

Evey time there is an media statement designed to make it look like something is happening and to help thread water, reporters just report as heard without question or reference to the many many many similar previous reports and boards.ie contributors get excited as if they have never heard the same ever before!

The history of this subject suggests another long wait - meanwhile, as intented, we all sit back and wait again without question....!

Political speak is important. Rabbitte isn't going to say he wanted something different but couldn't deliver it? They could just pass legislation like they did for the property tax to resolve any Data Protection issues. This is the first deadline that is "this week", not end of next month or whatever. Do you think the journalist just made this up? They must have sourced this properly. I hope you will welcome the announcement of a unique code when it arrives and not keep giving out that they aren't doing things the way you think they "have" to be done.

aimhigh

Here's similar discussion on here when the same Minister announced all would be concluded by first part of this year:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=83428532

Welcome to the world of spin and carefully worded political promises!

aimhigh

Leonard Shelby wrote: »

Political speak is important. Rabbitte isn't going to say he wanted something different but couldn't deliver it? They could just pass legislation like they did for the property tax to resolve any Data Protection issues. This is the first deadline that is "this week", not end of next month or whatever. Do you think the journalist just made this up? They must have sourced this properly. I hope you will welcome the announcement of a unique code when it arrives and not keep giving out that they aren't doing things the way you think they "have" to be done.

as I said to you elsewhere, they can't change the key terms of an open tender competition without stopping and starting again or face serious legal challenges!

sounds like your sudden arrival here is to help blot out all that was ever promised/specified before and help the spin along;- good luck with that!