National Postcodes to be introduced

Jayuu

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Sure. The issue is really to be able to remember it while you are transcribing it. No one is going to be going around memorising postcodes.

So while the Dublin postal districts retain their code (D1 becoming D01) is the rest of the country just being allocated a random set of alphanumeric strings in the first three characters?

With the last four digits alone you can create 1.6m unique codes. Even if you leave out the 1,I,O,0 you still end up with just around 1.1m codes. And if you were even stricter and adopted a pattern of ANXX (where A=Alphabetic, N=Numeric and X=both) you still could get a quarter of a million codes.

Given that each of these would be a subset in an area it surely would allow them to give the entire country meaningful codes for the first three letters using something like a combination of the already in use car registration codes maybe and an extra 1 or 2 digits.

That way you could end up with codes like KY1 B5AZ for Kerry addresses or G01 C95G for Galway addresses. This would give a level of familiarity along with flexibility and it would also make the code easier to remember.

Del2005

Jayuu wrote: »

So while the Dublin postal districts retain their code (D1 becoming D01) is the rest of the country just being allocated a random set of alphanumeric strings in the first three characters?

With the last four digits alone you can create 1.6m unique codes. Even if you leave out the 1,I,O,0 you still end up with just around 1.1m codes. And if you were even stricter and adopted a pattern of ANXX (where A=Alphabetic, N=Numeric and X=both) you still could get a quarter of a million codes.

Given that each of these would be a subset in an area it surely would allow them to give the entire country meaningful codes for the first three letters using something like a combination of the already in use car registration codes maybe and an extra 1 or 2 digits.

That way you could end up with codes like KY1 B5AZ for Kerry addresses or G01 C95G for Galway addresses. This would give a level of familiarity along with flexibility and it would also make the code easier to remember.

Doing that would open up the farce that we have a bilingual law. What language do you use? English and the Irish language zealots go crazy and drag it through the courts, delaying it even longer, or use Irish and then it won't make sense to the majority of people using it.

antoinolachtnai

Deleted User wrote: »

I never had any problems remembering my alphanumeric postcode while living in the UK, everyone used them all the time, so they became part of the address and remembered as such.

You are quite correct. But the problem isn't remembering your own postcode or your mate's postcode

What I am really talking about is being able to key or re-write a code accurately and quickly after seeing or hearing it once. This is a common thing to do if you deal with addresses including codes in writing or on the phone,or if you are hand-sorting.

To do this you have to be able to store the code for a short period in your short term memory (STM). A code of the form A4T 7B3M is just harder to store accurately in STM than ATBM 473 or 417 2534. You will always have some errors on this sort of task, but following best practice will minimise the error rate.

aimhigh

aimhigh wrote: »

Just for clarity:
This country needs a postcode which is a unique identifier, and with all the other necessary characteristics too, and I will rejoice loudly when all that is required is successfully delivered.

But I arrived on here to encourage sticking to facts rather than speculation; so.....

A headline that a Minister is bringing proposals to Government is hardly ground breaking news. Eamon Ryan did the same for postcodes in December 2010 but we are still waiting for the results!

Noel Dempsey announced a target of a postcode in place by Jan 2008, Eamon Ryan said end 2010 and then 2011. Pat Rabbitte said end 2012 and then mid 2013. So the record is not particularly good in relation to targets! (Fact)

And now a new announcement from Pat Rabbitte that his revised "target" is the end of 2014! After all that's gone before, this is not exactly something to rejoice over!

Odds are that P. Rabbitte will not even be in that Ministry by then and based on history, which holds the only facts we have, there is a good chance that Mr Leonard Shelby (or another similar incarnation with the same convenient amnesia) will be encouraging us to be excited over new anouncements many times between now and Christmas 2014 AD!

.....and lets not forget that the end of 2014 AD will be exactly 7 years after the first Government target was missed..... so hopefully you can see why I am not getting too excited!

AD = After Dempsey

Correction the new target is now 2015 AD!
Unique ID good but only for properties not anything else!
Based on An Post sorting offices - not independent and subject to change with reorganisation as the mail business contracts...
Earlier this year it was this year, last Sunday it was end 2014 and today it's 2015......my concerns in my last post remain but looks like we have a long wait to find out!

Del2005

murpho999 wrote: »

Well in the future aren't "Sat Nav Providers" going to be on phones, rather than Garmin devices so it will all go quicker and easier.

I think the internet will look after a lot of your worries.

I really don't think that temporary locations is a huge issue either.

Until roaming charges are reduced, not just within the EU where it's still not cheap, people won't use their phones in forgien countries. Some packages available in Ireland don't give much data and the maps on mobile phones aren't updated daily, or even monthly as I get told when my maps update on my phone. Not many people know about pre loading maps and it's not easy to find the feature even when you do.

I've a waterproof sat nav for use on my bike, I'm not going to stick my phone in the elements or drain it's battery as I've a sat nav that does the job.

aimhigh

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You are quite correct. But the problem isn't remembering your own postcode or your mate's postcode

What I am really talking about is being able to key or re-write a code accurately and quickly after seeing or hearing it once. This is a common thing to do if you deal with addresses including codes in writing or on the phone,or if you are hand-sorting.

To do this you have to be able to store the code for a short period in your short term memory (STM). A code of the form A4T 7B3M is just harder to store accurately in STM than ATBM 473 or 417 2534. You will always have some errors on this sort of task, but following best practice will minimise the error rate.

Not an issue;- already doing this very successfully in Canada with their postcode!

Amirani

Del2005 wrote: »

Until roaming charges are reduced, not just within the EU where it's still not cheap, people won't use their phones in forgien countries. Some packages available in Ireland don't give much data and the maps on mobile phones aren't updated daily, or even monthly as I get told when my maps update on my phone. Not many people know about pre loading maps and it's not easy to find the feature even when you do.

I've a waterproof sat nav for use on my bike, I'm not going to stick my phone in the elements or drain it's battery as I've a sat nav that does the job.

All this will change in the very near future.

antoinolachtnai

aimhigh wrote: »

Not an issue;- already doing this very successfully in Canada with their postcode!

Are you saying that the Canadian arrangement is optimal, or just that it is adequate?

(It is actually more regular than what is proposed in Ireland. The 2nd, 4th and 6th characters of a Canadian postcode are always digits; the Irish code can apparently have a letter or digit at any position.)

Numeric postcodes are very much the norm internationally.

aimhigh

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Are you saying that the Canadian arrangement is optimal, or just that it is adequate?

(It is actually more regular than what is proposed in Ireland. The 2nd, 4th and 6th characters of a Canadian postcode are always digits; the Irish code can apparently have a letter or digit at any position.)

Numeric postcodes are very much the norm internationally.

As an argument against the proposal it's poor!
The international codes you are referring to are just postal areas not property id's.

Courier and other businesses focus on destination phone numbers to help achieve delivery, it may not be wise to add to that another set of numbers which can be confused with the telephone number!

marmurr1916

SpaceTime wrote: »

You can get around that by always knowing which character's a letter and which is a number too.

So let's say

AAA A99A

Where 9 = Number and A = letter.

The example the press release gave is : A65 B2CD

So it's be A99 A9AA

UK (outside of London) is A(A)9(9) 9AA. The initial second letter character and second number character don't always appear, giving a range of between 5 and 7 characters. E.G: Birmingham postcode area 6 is B6, not BM06.

London has its own postcode system: A(A)9(9)(A) 9AA, giving a range of between 5 and 7 characters: Examples: N1 9SZ, EC1V 0AH, SW1A 1AA.

antoinolachtnai

Prefix the postcode with IRL and IE, and it is unlikely that you would mix it up with a phone number. Phone numbers typically start with a zero anyway.

You could still have the first part all letters, and it wouldn't be too bad.

According to the paper cited above, the error rate is three times as high as a result of having alternated letters and numbers.

This isn't just some supposition by me. The empirical evidence is all there in black and white. It's not just one paper. There are tonnes of papers cited there (including one by a Nobel prize winner), spread over four decades, that all come to more or less the same conclusion. Alternating letters and digits in a code is bad for accurate short-term recall.

aimhigh

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Prefix the postcode with IRL and IE, and it is unlikely that you would mix it up with a phone number. Phone numbers typically start with a zero anyway.

You could still have the first part all letters, and it wouldn't be too bad.

According to the paper cited above, the error rate is three times as high as a result of having alternated letters and numbers.

This isn't just some supposition by me. The empirical evidence is all there in black and white. It's not just one paper. There are tonnes of papers cited there (including one by a Nobel prize winner), spread over four decades, that all come to more or less the same conclusion. Alternating letters and digits in a code is bad for accurate short-term recall.

Academic really if that's what they are giving us after 10 years of development!

marmurr1916

Jayuu wrote: »

So while the Dublin postal districts retain their code (D1 becoming D01) is the rest of the country just being allocated a random set of alphanumeric strings in the first three characters?

I doubt it. I'd imagine that central Cork city will be C01 with codes from C02 to C99 covering the rest of the city and the county.

Similarly, Limerick is likely to be L01 to L99.

Jayuu wrote: »

With the last four digits alone you can create 1.6m unique codes. Even if you leave out the 1,I,O,0 you still end up with just around 1.1m codes. And if you were even stricter and adopted a pattern of ANXX (where A=Alphabetic, N=Numeric and X=both) you still could get a quarter of a million codes.

Given that each of these would be a subset in an area it surely would allow them to give the entire country meaningful codes for the first three letters using something like a combination of the already in use car registration codes maybe and an extra 1 or 2 digits.

That way you could end up with codes like KY1 B5AZ for Kerry addresses or G01 C95G for Galway addresses. This would give a level of familiarity along with flexibility and it would also make the code easier to remember.

That would be sensible. Hopefully the 20 out of 26 counties which share same initial letters (Carlow, Cavan, Clare, Cork; Dublin, Donegal; Kerry, Kildare Kilkenny; Laois, Leitrim, Limerick, Longford, Louth; Mayo, Meath, Monaghan; Waterford, Westmeath, Wexford, Wicklow) will follow the same pattern as car number plate codes.

Given that only 11 initial letters (C, D, G, K, L, M, O, R, S, T, W) will be needed to cover all counties, it frees up the use of other letters for special purposes or to institutions with large volumes of mail that could merit their own unique postcodes.

For example, a hospital or university in Cork could be AC1 A9AA or ZC1 A9AA etc.

There might even be room for vanity postcodes that could be sold to the highest bidder, although maybe not A55 H0LE as posted earlier!

marmurr1916

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Prefix the postcode with IRL and IE, and it is unlikely that you would mix it up with a phone number. Phone numbers typically start with a zero anyway.

You could still have the first part all letters, and it wouldn't be too bad.

According to the paper cited above, the error rate is three times as high as a result of having alternated letters and numbers.

This isn't just some supposition by me. The empirical evidence is all there in black and white. It's not just one paper. There are tonnes of papers cited there (including one by a Nobel prize winner), spread over four decades, that all come to more or less the same conclusion. Alternating letters and digits in a code is bad for accurate short-term recall.

Meh. If the Brits and Canadians can get over it, the Irish can too.

yuloni

This post has been deleted.

diomed

I haven't read all 95 pages of the thread.

Is there a check digit in the code?

diomed

diomed wrote: »

I haven't read all 95 pages of the thread.

Is there a check digit in the code?

no

irishgeo

diomed wrote: »

I haven't read all 95 pages of the thread.

Is there a check digit in the code?

Why would you need one?

SpaceTime

People were arguing that 5-digit phone numbers were as much as the feeble human mind could handle a few years ago.

People manage all sorts of cumbersome passwords and codes everyday.

I mean we're taking long IBAN bank account numbers for granted and they're far worse than any post code.

Most telephone numbers in Ireland are 10-digit now
As in 0xx yxx xxxx

Most in the UK are 11 020 xxxx xxxx

People will just remember the post codes. They're no worse than the UK or Canadian ones really in terms of ease of memorisation.

To get the same level of granularity with digits only would require much longer codes. You'd end up with some mess like the US Mail's Zip+4

Apple Inc,
1 INFINITE LOOP
CUPERTINO CA 95014-2083

That still doesn't actually get down to building level. It only gives you a recognised high-volume receiver or a city block!

With the US system, you actually have to optically character recognise the whole address.
Then translate it (including Zip Code) to a Zip+4+delivery point barcode which is a total of 11 digits long.

You end up with : http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/Zip_plus_4.png (from Wikipedia) which includes the printed on postnet barcode needed for delivery.

Our system will basically manage to do all that with just 7 letters and numbers and people will actually be able to see what's going on and use the codes to identify things without complex look ups.

With most European systems, they just give you the suburb/village/post office.

France for example XX YYY
XX = Department (Like County)
YYY = Town/suburb and 000 is always the main town in the area.

The German system is broadly similar, just without the Departments and with broader areas that have no real meaning.

That'd be completely useless in Ireland.

Many countries just have XXXX or XXXXX where each code is an area with no particular logic. Again, it's no more advantageous than the Dublin or Cork numbers.
E.g. Belgium, most of the Nordic Countries, Austria etc etc.

They're basically just the same level of information as telephone area codes or prefixes. So, maybe Dublin central might be 0167 or Cork Central 0212 or something like that. It wouldn't really fix the problem of inaccurate / vague and non-unique addressing and it wouldn't give you any more info than is already in the address.

These systems were only introduced to help the post office sort mail, they were never intended to point to individual addresses for other services.

The Netherlands system and aspects of the UK system are closest to what we are looking at. Ours will basically be more advanced and more accurate due to the later date of introduction and the technology available now.

Even in the UK and Dutch systems, it's not building level in most cases. You still need the street address, which requires house number - something that we don't use in a lot of cases. Even in the UK system in rural areas like the Scottish highlands and Northern Ireland the system starts to fall apart and become no more than a big area with a single code.

Most of the systems including the British one are also designed exclusively for the purposes of delivering mail by the post office. So, they tend to sort things down to post office delivery routes. That information's pointless for any other user like the ambulance service, fire service, couriers etc. I mean, why would anyone want to know the internal workings of An Post's delivery routes other than a postal worker in An Post?!

Our proposed system puts is into the unique position of actually having a code for every address.

niallb

marmurr1916 wrote: »

...Given that only 11 initial letters (C, D, G, K, L, M, O, R, S, T, W) will be needed to cover all counties, it frees up the use of other letters for special purposes or to institutions with large volumes of mail that could merit their own unique postcodes.

For example, a hospital or university in Cork could be AC1 A9AA or ZC1 A9AA etc.
...

That's a good idea on one level, but if the codes are primarily used for sorting, it could be confusing to the human eye as the Cork hospital no longer begins with 'C'.

It could have the knock on effect though that all hospital codes as per your example beginning with 'A' could be given preferential sorting for delivery.
You could allow people and departments to apply for postcodes for more useful reasons than simple vanity.

All postcodes beginning with A could always receive 1st class delivery,
All postcodes beginning with F could be permanently freepost.

Another possible use would be to divert all post addressed for example to HSE buildings to a central location for internal distribution allowing for sub postal services.

As for concerns about argument about county letter codes being in English or Irish, there is an ISO standard describing the counties, so there should be no reason to depart from it. ISO 3166-2

I share a postal address with almost all of my neighbours at the moment, and when our regular postman is on holiday, it's a disaster around here :-)
I'll always prefer location codes myself, but I hope there's fresh scope for public feedback between now and 2015 to make the most of the postcode system.

antoinolachtnai

Condi wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It's not terrible. There are a lot of improvements on what was previously proposed, including the promise of a public address database. That makes validation and so on an awful lot easier. A lot will depend on the quality of the address database and how it is presented.

But there are things that make no sense. Why do things moderately well? You might as well do it as well as you can possibly do? This philosophy 'well if it's good enough for the English ...' is just strange. Why make the same mistakes they made?

The Ergonomics article about research for the Dutch number plate gives you an idea of how much trouble other countries go to in order to make sure simple things are done as well as possible.

It would be different if there were some good reason for this design. The only reason for it is a political promise that Noel Dempsey and Eamonn Ryan made years ago. Why stick to such a decision?

Another problem is going to be getting the areas in this code to marry with the Dublin postal districts and at the same time map with the system of electoral divisions and small areas. Again, it seems to me like an unnecessary political promise to have been made, which does not benefit anyone and does not make any particular sense. It seems unfair to constrain the design with this requirement.

antoinolachtnai

SpaceTime wrote: »

To get the same level of granularity with digits only would require much longer codes. You'd end up with some mess like the US Mail's Zip+4

Apple Inc,
1 INFINITE LOOP
CUPERTINO CA 95014-2083

That still doesn't actually get down to building level. It only gives you a recognised high-volume receiver or a city block!

9 digits would get you down to delivery point level in Ireland handy enough.

two digits for county, three for small area, 2 for street segment and two for house.

A nine-digit code isn't particularly hard to remember. The issue isn't really long term memory, it's short-term memory for sorting, transcription, etc. There is a whole pile of literature indicating that mixed numbers and letters are harder to remember.

LeinsterDub

irishgeo wrote: »

Why would you need one?

To verify the code is correct in an IT system but they are talking about having a Database and if there is an API then no worries.

SpaceTime

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

9 digits would get you down to delivery point level in Ireland handy enough.

two digits for county, three for small area, 2 for street segment and two for house.

A nine-digit code isn't particularly hard to remember. The issue isn't really long term memory, it's short-term memory for sorting, transcription, etc. There is a whole pile of literature indicating that mixed numbers and letters are harder to remember.

Sorting's largely irrelevant anyway as it's mostly done by machine.

What happens at the moment is similar to the US process. An OCR scanner reads the full address and the system translates that into a delivery route barcode that's for internal An Post use only.

That's inkjet printed onto the back of the envelope in fluorescent orange ink as a series of lines and that's what's used to sort your letters, not the address.
The whole thing gets it down to a bundle of post for each route.

The problem is that beyond the postman's route, nobody really knows how it all works because it's based on his/her local knowledge.

For couriers, that's a huge issue as they're not familiar with the routes and they can only sort to a particular delivery van or whatever which could be covering a huge area.

As for memorability:

If the first chunk of the code are a general area, then that will become memorable as it's significant.

Until we actually see the system though we're sort of talking about hypothetical stuff.
All we know at the moment is the rough idea of the format.

For transcription / keying processes if there's a check digit or the system can somehow verify a valid vs invalid code it will work well.
There are several ways of doing this.

I would say the biggest problem we'll encounter in the short term / medium term will be UK systems thinking it's an invalid UK post code and refusing to allow people to key it in.
A lot of those systems will check it against a database instantly and dump invalid codes.

zg3409

As one of the only countries in the OECD not to have a postcode system Ireland will now become one of the first in the world to have a public database of unique identifiers for all properties in the State.

From:
http://news.ie.msn.com/ireland/confirmed-new-national-postcode-system-to-be-rolled-out-by-spring-2015-1

So it will be a public database. In the UK they charge extra if you want to have a special postcode or an extra postcode for a particular part of a building. Does anyone know the tender requirements for the open-ness and charging within the new system?

Will the system give codes to such things as fields, for farming purposes, or only buildings?

Will the system be free for Sat Navs to add or will there be a licencing scheme?

If new postcodes are added, say when new houses are built, will Sat Navs automatically find the new location, or will they need to have their postcode database updated regularly? (This is a problem in the UK where new houses cannot be found with the postcode)

grasmermaximus

Hrmm can anyone join the dots...Government has compiled quite a few databases this year, not only do they have the new property database and water metering database but now they have a postcode to tie it all to..wonder what will happen with the new upcoming broadcasting "help bail out the failing broadcaster, rte" charge...

(About the postcodes, its about time we got these, ordering things online used to be a nightmare! but! why are we going with an English company? Capita Ireland is only a branch of an english company, do we not have any irish contenders we could put forward for this??? )

I despair for this nation and where we are heading..

LeinsterDub

grasmermaximus wrote: »

Hrmm can anyone join the dots...Government has compiled quite a few databases this year, not only do they have the new property database and water metering database but now they have a postcode to tie it all to..wonder what will happen with the new upcoming broadcasting "help bail out the failing broadcaster, rte" charge...

(About the postcodes, its about time we got these, ordering things online used to be a nightmare! but! why are we going with an English company? Capita Ireland is only a branch of an english company, do we not have any irish contenders we could put forward for this??? )

I despair for this nation and where we are heading..

Conspiracy Theories forum thataway --->

SpaceTime

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Conspiracy Theories forum thataway --->

At that rate we might as well just get rid of phone numbers, car regs etc and addresses entirely as they could be used to track us down for tax!

You know we all have an individual PPS number, right?!

mackerski

zg3409 wrote: »

So it will be a public database.

It's far from clear what is meant by that term. "Owned by the state" is one possible interpretation.

larchill

This is a world 1st: a code for every building. Only the UK, Nederland, & Canada come close with systems that go down to street or part of street level. All others eg: US Zip, French, German, etc only cover an area or District. Lets hope FG/Lab don't fallout & the whole thing ends up going the way of Dempsey & Ryan's efforts :P