National Postcodes to be introduced

aimhigh · 11-10-2013 11:39am

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

So A55 W1PE, but not BAD SLUM.

They should perhaps leave a gap for this purpose. Something the phone numbering did, but road numbering did not

and 2 more years at least before you can have that A55 W1PE - crap really!

as I keep saying, the process remains "ongoing".... ever ongoing!

However, now the ABC 123 model they went to tender to deliver in Jan 2011 has been changed as they found it would not work (after 5 years of multiple consultants reports and boards recommending it and with the same much heralded Cabinet Approval before the process even started! And also after nearly 3 years of collaboration in a tender process which met none of its deadlines!). So now, under EU tender and procurement rules, they are obliged to start the same tender all over again for the new A55 W1PE design, but this time with Capita running things instead of PA Consulting who won the contract in 2010!

Doesn't 2015 seem just a little ambitious after all that previous dismal performance!

Sam Russell · 11-10-2013 12:04pm

I hope they do not end up with the mess they made of the car registration plates, adding extra digits here and there to stimulate a defunct market.

We used to have 6 digits for number plates, fixed format. When they ran out of numbers they changed it to a variable format than can have up to eleven or so digits, including the hyphens. Most countries can manage with 6 or 7 digits. [UK=7, Holland=6, Sweden=6 etc]

The new postcode system should be based on towns, not counties.

SpaceTime · 11-10-2013 12:18pm

The counties in Ireland don't really make logical sense anyway in terms of a way of dividing up the country.

Considering that's what the country looks like by population :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CountyIMOS.png

We should really merge a lot of the Midlands / West Midlands area.
The majority coastal counties (and I don't include Leitrim in that) are at least reasonably sized population centres.

You're going to need a LOT more codes in say Dublin and Cork than many of the other counties. So, wasting county letters on them would be a little silly.

Something like : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NUTS_3_statistical_regions_of_the_Republic_of_Ireland would be a bit more logical.

ManAboutCouch · 11-10-2013 12:20pm

aimhigh wrote: »

So now, under EU tender and procurement rules, they are obliged to start the same tender all over again for the new A55 W1PE design.

Really? What makes you think that?

According to the PQQ (available from here in .doc format)

This procurement will follow the Negotiated Procedure set out in S.I. No. 50/2007 — European Communities (Award of Contracts by Utility Undertakings) Regulations 2007. Given the technical complexity of the project, DCENR will run the procurement following a process similar to the Competitive Dialogue procedure provided for in the Public Supply and Works Directive

aimhigh · 11-10-2013 12:21pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

The new postcode system should be based on towns, not counties.

That's broadly what ABC 123 was trying to do. It was what PA consulting and the Post Code Board recommended and what got Cabinet approval in 2010 with PA steering implementation;- here's that link again:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/ryan-under-fire-as-firm-wins-05m-contract-on-postcodes-26685975.html

However, it took 32 months of a failed tender process for them to discover that this would not work... unbelieveable! ... but why?....

1. The choice between Irish V English version of the Name
2. Too many confusing 3 character combinations, Rathmore, Rathcormac, Rathnew etc etc etc!

having now found that out with nearly 3 more years wasted (10 altogether!) they have now changed the design, PA is gone, Capita is in and they have to start all over again...!

....and by the looks of it they have decided D04 stays but D6W is gone..... well that's what they think - wait till the people in D6W find out!

I am sorry to say that this is unlikely to see the light of day and this thread, already 4 years old will probably celebrate its 10th birthday still running and most definietly boards.ie 's longest running thread ever ever ever :cool:

:mad::o!!!!!!!!

ManAboutCouch · 11-10-2013 12:23pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

The new postcode system should be based on towns, not counties.

The first 3 characters refer to "a general area or postal district in which the address is located". It remains to be seen what these 'general areas' are but I suspect they will be smaller than counties.

ManAboutCouch · 11-10-2013 12:27pm

aimhigh wrote: »

I am sorry to say that this is unlikely to see the light of day and this thread, already 4 years old will probably celebrate its 10th birthday still running and most definietly boards.ie 's longest running thread ever ever ever :cool::mad::o!!!!!!!!

The tender has been approved by cabinet and awarded (well, 'subject to contract signing') which makes me think this more likely to see the light of day than it ever was before.

aimhigh · 11-10-2013 12:33pm

ManAboutCouch wrote: »

The tender has been approved by cabinet and awarded (well, 'subject to contract signing') which makes me think this more likely to see the light of day than it ever was before.

1. Cabinet gave approval for ABC 123 in 2010 - now changed
2. Cabinet does not make, interpret or make judgements on procurement law!

The legal representatives that encourage correct interpretation of such legislation are unlikley to be posting their thoughts here!

ManAboutCouch · 11-10-2013 1:48pm

aimhigh wrote: »

1. Cabinet gave approval for ABC 123 in 2010 - now changed
2. Cabinet does not make, interpret or make judgements on procurement law!

The legal representatives that encourage correct interpretation of such legislation are unlikley to be posting their thoughts here!

The cabinet gave approval for A65 B2CD this week.

The tender was a competitive dialogue. To my mind that means that any changes in the postcode format, how it is derived and how it is delivered which were made during the course of the tender process are all legal and above board.

You might disagree with me on that, which is fine, I'm not a legal expert. I suppose we'll see if there is a challenge to the contract award brought before the courts and on what grounds.

larchill · 11-10-2013 2:09pm

aimhigh wrote: »

T

....and by the looks of it they have decided D04 stays but D6W is gone..... well that's what they think - wait till the people in D6W find out!

No D6W will become D06 W2AB, D06 W2AC, ... :P

larchill · 11-10-2013 2:17pm

ManAboutCouch wrote: »

The first 3 characters refer to "a general area or postal district in which the address is located". It remains to be seen what these 'general areas' are but I suspect they will be smaller than counties.

Probably based upon postal towns, eg: for Louth that'll be Drogheda, Dundalk, & Ardee; Meath will be Navan, Trim, Kells, etc ... Each postal town will have the A12 part, & the A2BC will provide granularity down to each building? The A2BC bit gives 80,000 possibilities based on using 20* letters, & 10 numbers for the 2nd numerical part. If this proves insufficient, then additional district codes will have to be created.

* excluding i, o, q, u or v & z as these could be confused with 1, 0, O, each other, & 2 respectively.

aimhigh · 11-10-2013 2:46pm

ManAboutCouch wrote: »

The cabinet gave approval for A65 B2CD this week.

The tender was a competitive dialogue. To my mind that means that any changes in the postcode format, how it is derived and how it is delivered which were made during the course of the tender process are all legal and above board.

You might disagree with me on that, which is fine, I'm not a legal expert. I suppose we'll see if there is a challenge to the contract award brought before the courts and on what grounds.

It didn't take the courts to change the last effort and to end PA Consulting's involvement after recommending, trying and failing to oversee its implementation.

Again I would caution that this thing has a poor history so far which cannot just be be ignored... ongoing !

Failures to date have been through a fundamental lack of expertise and foresight and responsible Ministers who have just repeated what they were told to say without even minor examination of the detail!

As a example, the Minister stated on Tuesday that postcodes would result in a 2% increase in mail. This was obviously aimed at appeasing the CWU and postmen. I understand that postmen have seen through this already and have raised it with their representatives; so much for the support of a Labour Minister!

Efficiencies in sorting/delivering do not increase mail! It is well documented that mail is a declining business and even utility companies are moving to eStatements and postcodes will not reverse that at all.

So where is the claimed 2% increase coming from;- well its related to the direct marketing industry of course! Direct mail was given by the Department of Communications as one of the justifications of the postcode in the very first instance and has lead to respresentatives of that industry being involved in the decision making process so far. But will extra junk mail in your door mean more postmen?; cerainly not to deliver it and if postcodes, if used at all by An Post (cost for them to adapt not quoted), do what they are supposed to do they will improve sorting efficiency so there will be no increase there either!
Any benefit, therefore, will be in the Direct Marketing industry itself. They will grow, creating more jobs but the irony is that in the new liberalised market there is a good chance that in cities for now anyhow, it will not be An Post that gets to deliver it!

So the 2% that came out of the Minister's mouth was a 2% increase related to direct mail and the overall decrease in ordinary mail and related jobs will just continue as well flagged by the industry itself!

The big winners will be the couriers;- nothing at all to do with An Post and the CWU. However the couriers for now are not too happy either;- it will be another 2 years at least with online sales growing rapidly already and because this A55 W1PE code is still linked on to An Post's operation and will require the cost of Geodirectory licensing to use it. Their own experiences and those of Retail Excellence Ireland and eTail Excellence in that regard to date have not been very cordial or accomodating!

And whatever other flaws will be found in the A55 W1PE model over the next few years!

1. Dublin 4 favoured over Dublin 6W
2. New subcultures formed in all D areas that remain;- D04 A versus D04 B etc. This issue is routinely the cause of legal disputes with the UK postcode as I mentioned in my earlier posts!
3. As the code is linked to An Post's operations, it will have to change as An Post's declining mail business changes!
4. The A55 W1PE and all other undesirable variations concern
5. CWU
6. Procurement irregularities
7. The An Post V COMREG supreme court appeal has yet to be heard
8. The Geodirectory ownership issues
9. Uptake related issues - who will want to use a postcode that gets them more junk mail!
10. Cost
11. Overrun
12. Capita...
13. please add yourself.....

SpaceTime · 11-10-2013 5:04pm

larchill wrote: »

No D6W will become D06 W2AB, D06 W2AC, ... :P

Well, you'll be able to define your house down to an even posher bit.
So the people in XPN 2D70 to XPN 2D81will be sneering at the people in XPN 2D82 to XPN 2D99 who live in the 'smaller houses' without the decking...

aimhigh · 11-10-2013 5:15pm

Let's be clear what's going on here with this Irish Postcode soap opera:

1. Ryan became Rabbitte
2. ABC 123 became A65 B2CD
3. PA Consulting became Capita
and
4. The year has changed from 2008, 2010, 2012, 2013 to what is for now 2015!

what's the next change - well the Government in 2015 I would expect!

aimhigh · 12-10-2013 8:20am

GoCoder wrote: »

It's going to be starting with a letter and two numbers - e.g D24

Starting with a letter and ending with lots of direct mail you mean!

You never confirmed;- no place for Dublin 6W at the top table? (D06)

aimhigh · 12-10-2013 8:32am

For the Record:

Today, The Deadline for Implementation of Irish Postcodes
has been missed by:

2108 Days

........ever ongoing!

Curly Judge · 12-10-2013 9:20am

aimhigh wrote: »

For the Record:

Today, The Deadline for Implementation of Irish Postcodes
has been missed by:

2108 Days

........ever ongoing!

Longer even than either the First or the Second World
War?

12-10-2013 10:35am

Curly Judge wrote: »

Longer even than either the First or the Second World
War?

The TV series M.A.S.H lasted for over ten years, there was more than one episode for each and every day of the real war.

It just goes to prove that someone really doesn't want them to happen and is dragging it out for as long as possible.

recedite · 12-10-2013 12:13pm

The difference between PA Consulting and Capita is that PA did not have a mandate for the actual implementation of "a postcode" but the mystery consortium behind Capita does.
Minister Ryan gave his buddies in PA a 2-year "consultancy" to talk about postcodes and set up a tender for the implementaion. Capita have now been awarded the tender, which has a 10-year lifespan plus a 5-year time extension option to implement and run "a postcode".
There is no guarantee that the implementation will happen during the first 10 years, nor is there a guarantee that the a55 w1pe model which is currently favoured by "cabinet" (a British constitutional term BTW) will be the final model implemented by the mystery consortium. They will still hold this contract long after the current govt. have gone.

aimhigh · 12-10-2013 1:23pm

recedite wrote: »

There is no guarantee that the implementation will happen during the first 10 years, nor is there a guarantee that the a55 w1pe model which is currently favoured by "cabinet" (a British constitutional term BTW) will be the final model implemented by the mystery consortium. They will still hold this contract long after the current govt. have gone.

The PA contract was to administer the implementation of ABC 123 over an 18 month period from Oct 2010 to April 2012 including the specification and running of a tender;- NOT ACHEIVED BUT STILL PAID!

I completely agree that neither code nor implementation may ever see the light of day. Capita have bigger fish to fry in Ireland with new Government contracts. The history of Postcodes since 2003 clearly shows that there is some other agenda stopping it from happening! Note An Post's involvement in the delivery of the solution!

D+2108 and counting!

SpaceTime · 12-10-2013 2:57pm

By the time this gets implemented the Transporter will be in common use beaming stuff around the country. LoL

GoCoder · 12-10-2013 3:31pm

aimhigh wrote: »

Starting with a letter and ending with lots of direct mail you mean!

You never confirmed;- no place for Dublin 6W at the top table? (D06)

No idea Har. It might be Letter, Alphanumeric,Alphanumeric. I'm just guessing. Does it really matter?

aimhigh · 12-10-2013 3:36pm

GoCoder wrote: »

No idea Har. It might be Letter, Alphanumeric,Alphanumeric. I'm just guessing. Does it really matter?

oh sorry - you gave the impression that you knew absolutely what it was in your last post...

GoCoder · 12-10-2013 3:45pm

aimhigh wrote: »

oh sorry - you gave the impression that you knew absolutely what it was in your last post...

It said A65 or A85 in the example given if I recall correctly

Leonard Shelby · 12-10-2013 4:29pm

recedite wrote: »

The difference between PA Consulting and Capita is that PA did not have a mandate for the actual implementation of "a postcode" but the mystery consortium behind Capita does.
Minister Ryan gave his buddies in PA a 2-year "consultancy" to talk about postcodes and set up a tender for the implementaion. Capita have now been awarded the tender, which has a 10-year lifespan plus a 5-year time extension option to implement and run "a postcode".
There is no guarantee that the implementation will happen during the first 10 years, nor is there a guarantee that the a55 w1pe model which is currently favoured by "cabinet" (a British constitutional term BTW) will be the final model implemented by the mystery consortium. They will still hold this contract long after the current govt. have gone.

Read the press release. Everyone will be given their postcode in Spring 2015. Capita will manage the administration for 10 years.

aimhigh · 12-10-2013 4:39pm

Ok Leonard Shelby - more amnesia about the pedigree of this project so far!
Your name is well chosen for your assignment!

D+2108 and counting!

Jack180570 · 12-10-2013 7:57pm

When I heard on the radio earlier this week that we were going to get advanced postcode system I thought it was brilliant, finally... and then I heard on the 9o'clock news that it was going to be 2015 and I couldnt understand it so I read his press release and I was speechless at first and hopping mad now... in the press release he said that he was going to introduce the system in 2015 but in the meantime he was going to have to 'design and implement it'... somewhere else I read that it was going to cost 20-25million to do this... whats going on??
We already have a postcode system, that is in use, that works, that is proven, and is free... so what the hell is he going on about needing to 'design a system'? There is one there already and its free... oh yes, and its going to be 2015 before it will be ready, why isnt he using the one that is there?
I was so mad at him that I wrote to him and a couple of days later he wrote back saying that my query was with his postal division and he would get back to me in due course... this is the Minister that made the announcement and then cant answer a simple question about his announcement... what kind of Ministers do we have?
Disclosure... for the last few years I have been using the existing postcode system for delivering goods.... searching for missing persons... finding the location of hotels and other public buildings for meetings etc. I have no interest of any kind in the currently available and working post code system that is in use.
It was in the search for answers that I came to boards.ie cos to be fair there is an answer to most everything here... I didnt expect to find such a big thread on the subject and I have only read back as page 95 but can anyone here answer my question...
Why is the Minister not using the existing postcode system that works and is free rather than awarding a contract to design one?

aimhigh · 12-10-2013 8:20pm

Jack180570 wrote: »

When I heard on the radio earlier this week that we were going to get advanced postcode system I thought it was brilliant, finally... and then I heard on the 9o'clock news that it was going to be 2015 and I couldnt understand it so I read his press release and I was speechless at first and hopping mad now... in the press release he said that he was going to introduce the system in 2015 but in the meantime he was going to have to 'design and implement it'... somewhere else I read that it was going to cost 20-25million to do this... whats going on??
We already have a postcode system, that is in use, that works, that is proven, and is free... so what the hell is he going on about needing to 'design a system'? There is one there already and its free... oh yes, and its going to be 2015 before it will be ready, why isnt he using the one that is there?
I was so mad at him that I wrote to him and a couple of days later he wrote back saying that my query was with his postal division and he would get back to me in due course... this is the Minister that made the announcement and then cant answer a simple question about his announcement... what kind of Ministers do we have?
Disclosure... for the last few years I have been using the existing postcode system for delivering goods.... searching for missing persons... finding the location of hotels and other public buildings for meetings etc. I have no interest of any kind in the currently available and working post code system that is in use.
It was in the search for answers that I came to boards.ie cos to be fair there is an answer to most everything here... I didnt expect to find such a big thread on the subject and I have only read back as page 95 but can anyone here answer my question...
Why is the Minister not using the existing postcode system that works and is free rather than awarding a contract to design one?

I wonder is this Capita contract only part of other larger Government contracts where the postcode is low priority because it really seems from what I have seen that there is someone who really does not want this to happen.
Announcing a contract is a holding position, keeps pressure off and people happy and as Recedite says above there are no guarantees associated with it!

All it took this week was Rabbitte's press release and everyone heralded it as it was never heard before. Irish people are too easy to con, and now pressure is off until 2015 when new announcement can be made - Rabbitte will have changed brief and election is just around the corner!

aimhigh · 13-10-2013 10:07am

D+2109 (AD)

and counting.........

Sam Russell · 13-10-2013 11:34am

When were the Dublin post districts introduced? And when were the London postal districts introduced?

It is interesting that the post codes for London are not L?? But SW?? or EC?? so perhaps we could be imagintive ........ sorry I got carried away there. Imagination is not a commodity known to exist within our government circles.

Sorry I must pay attention to political realities. It is a political reality, that in order to divert citicism of potential failure for those responsible, huge fees (money) has to be paid for international consultants to provide us backwoodsmen with multi volume reports on wide-reaching studies of ground breaking itechnologies including fantastic innovations on ...... post code systems in 2015!

Are they serious? I could design a simple postcode system for buttons (as could most people). The most important thing to realise is that a poor system is better than no system. A cheap system that can be used is better than paying millions for no system. This government, like all their predecessors boasts how technically advanced we are and the centre of world computer technology, etc etc, but we are the only country in Europe with no postcode system and no prospect of one - well not in the next ten years.

Look what the DCENR did with digital TV (Saorview). They are still pursuing a payTV model that cannot work as Sky and UPC already have that sown up. They have TV3 owing the state €140m, €81m is basically written off. They have given away all our oil and gas prospects with no royalties going to the state and no requirement for the oil/gas to be landed here. Now they are handing huge monies to a foreign consortium to 'manage' a postcode system to be introduced sometime never.

National Postcodes to be introduced

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