National Postcodes to be introduced

antoinolachtnai

Well, sat navs do already go down to the house level in urban areas. The database of all the buildings in Ireland is unlikely to come to more than 100 Mbyte (say 2 million buildings, 50 bytes each)

Sam Russell

Satnav does not need the whole database, just some of it. 2 million addresses with 256 bytes per address is 256 mbytes - not much. With compression, that should be enough per address.

a65b2cd

Sam Russell wrote: »

You do not have to do it that way. Do not use counties, use towns (or townlands).

Have the first thee characters point to a town. Say the 100 or so largest towns would be given a number codes, depending on size. Dublin would be special.

The space around each town would be divided up into tiles which would be numbered by some algorith that removes rude combinations, and assigns the order of the tiles, so that the whole country is covered without duplication. Each tile would then be divided down to 10m or so resolution. Redundancy would give an element of error checking.

However, a look-up database would be much better, but would require mantenance, but could give resolution down to single buildings.

It will be interesting to see how the first three characters (A65) are structured: around postal delivery or information/analysis/marketing use. They should be designed so that there is no need to change the postcode associated with an address just because a town expanded etc. Probably a maximum of around 150 different codes so that businesses can analyse their market shares etc. with basic IT skills and software.

SpaceTime

Since the end of the building bubble it should be substantially easier

At the peak of 'the insanity' we were building 100,000 new homes a year!! That's highly unlikely to be repeated in any of our lifetimes.

(I'm not sure how anyone ever though there was sufficient demand... But, that's for another thread and another forum)

With relatively modest numbers of new buildings every year a database would not be changing that much.

zg3409

BailMeOut wrote: »

how will SatNav devices work if it goings to depend on a database? Surely we will want to encourage Garmin/Tom Tom / etc to include the option to look-up the post code but if it needs to connect to a database then this cannot work unless the SatNav device can store every address and post code in the country.

Well it is similar to how postcodes work in the UK. The Sat Nav has an onboard database of where every postcode is located. Yes issues happen when new postcodes are added, as unless the sat Nav is updated, it can only bring you to he general postal area. Also some do not complain if the postcode is unknown so it could end up sending you to the wrong end of a town before you realise something is up.

Definitely it is a step up if every house has a unique postcode, but as suggested by some, if it was just a co-ordinate then no updating of sat navs would be needed, and the code could link to a databse entry for other uses such as postal district etc. A checksum could be used to flag up wrongly entered codes.

Either way the Sat Nav companies will need to create a unique solution/setup for Ireland, but they already do this for evey country. They will probably impliment it fairly quickly as it would be a major selling point of new Sat Navs. Evey Taxi/Courier/Salesperson will rush out to buy the system once the codes start to be used.

In any case back end databases are always going to be needed to link to existing databases for Gas, Electricity, Phone etc etc.

larchill

Delphic wrote: »

Yep. It should be easy. Make the postal zones random letters/numbers so can't be linked with county or region in any way and avoid rows of who's called what.
Then take one house and put a code on it. Take the next house and put a code on that, then the next one, and the next one. Repeat 2.2m times and the job is done.

They wouldn't want to be too random though. They'd need to follow a logical pattern especially the 1st 3 characters to aid memorability. eg: thing STD codes 01 = Dublin, 041 = Drogheda, 021 = Cork etc. You'd have some notion where to number is without necessarily remembering the whole number. The postal district will play this part in the proposed system: D01 to D24 Dublin obviously! The rest of the country will have to be districtized somehow - probably based upon postal towns.

Sam Russell

I think it would be prudent to add an eighth character to the code as it would provide a check digit, but would allow for expansion of the system in the future. Cramming too much data in would make the system clunky, particularly if it gets close to saturation.

ben101

What puzzles me about this whole subject is that the government are paying a private company huge money to build up a database when An Post already have an extremely comprehensive one.
https://www.geodirectory.ie/What-is-Geodirectory.aspx
Every single building in the country is mapped into this and it would have been a hell of an easier (and cheaper)job to assign a postal codes to buildings in the geodirectory.A private company would be starting from scratch,just doesn't make sense.

ben101

ben101 wrote: »

What puzzles me about this whole subject is that the government are paying a private company huge money to build up a database when An Post already have an extremely comprehensive one.
https://www.geodirectory.ie/What-is-Geodirectory.aspx
Every single building in the country is mapped into this and it would have been a hell of an easier (and cheaper)job to assign a postal codes to buildings in the geodirectory.A private company would be starting from scratch,just doesn't make sense.

Perhaps, that is the task that they've been given, overlay a postcode sequence onto the geodirectory.

Sam Russell

ben101 wrote: »

What puzzles me about this whole subject is that the government are paying a private company huge money to build up a database when An Post already have an extremely comprehensive one.
https://www.geodirectory.ie/What-is-Geodirectory.aspx
Every single building in the country is mapped into this and it would have been a hell of an easier (and cheaper)job to assign a postal codes to buildings in the geodirectory.A private company would be starting from scratch,just doesn't make sense.

What is unusual in that? Easier has nothing to do with it.

The Government, through the Passport Office, have a system of identifying each citizen to the satisfaction of every other government on the planet, but when it came to identifying motorists to give them a driving licence they handed it out to a private company that increased the fee hugely.

The Government handed over the process of collecting VRT to a private company when it had been previously been done by Revenue.

The Government allowed private operators to charge a toll for motorists to pass over bridges and motorways that were partly built with private funds. These tolls are indexed linked and must be paid by the public purse if insufficient tolls are collected. No risk for the private investor, all risk with the public purse.

Currently the Minister for DCENR, Pat Rabbitte is looking at proposals to collect the new Broadcasting Charge, instead of adding it to the ESB Networks electricity bills. Probably go to a private outfit that will net 5% or so for the collection.

The Government have handed over the responsibility for speed checks to a private company when it was the resposibility of AGS.

Do you see a pattern here? Public money going into private pockets. In some countries that would be assumed to be some corruption at some level. Here it is politics, as practised by every government for a very long time.

antoinolachtnai

It is just not as simple as that. ESB Networks does not collect ESB Networks charges from the customer; Electric Ireland and the other suppliers do. Electric Ireland charges quite considerably more than 5 percent markup on top of the ESB Networks charges. As far as i can remember, An Post charges a good bit over the 5 percent for collecting the licence fee at present.

ben101

Deleted User wrote: »

Perhaps, that is the task that they've been given, overlay a postcode sequence onto the geodirectory.

An Post have put a lot of resources into putting the geodirectory together.Can't see them letting some private company taking it and then charging the government big money.My point is that this company will have to start from scratch hence the fairly hefty costs that have been mentioned.Why do this when we are supposed to be trying to save money?If An Post were given the job it would cost a fraction of what its going to.

Jack180570

Im not sure that I see the logic or reason why the postcode work should be done by public sector/government rather than private sector given the wage rates paid it would appear that it will be a much more expensive enterprise if carried out by public sector... Average weekly earnings in the private sector in the first three months of the year (2013) was €628.26 and €913.25 in the public sector.

antoinolachtnai

It's just intellectual property. The parties make an agreement on ownership or licensing and move on. It's no big deal.

Jack180570

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056246218

ESB: average pay - €75,500, €94,300 including pension
Bord Gáis average pay - €67,300, €77,200 including pension
Bord na Móna average pay - €44,800, €46,900 including pension
Eirgrid average pay - €83,400, €96,900 - including pension
DAA average pay - €49,300, €51,700 - including pension
IAA average pay - €95,600, €120,300 -including pension
Dublin Port average pay - €67,900, €110,600 - including pension
CIE average pay - €49,100, €54,000 - including pension
An Post average pay - €59,700, €65,600 including pension
RTE average pay - €59,700, €65,600 including pension
Coillte average pay - €45,600, €63,700 including pension

Del2005

ben101 wrote: »

An Post have put a lot of resources into putting the geodirectory together.Can't see them letting some private company taking it and then charging the government big money.My point is that this company will have to start from scratch hence the fairly hefty costs that have been mentioned.Why do this when we are supposed to be trying to save money?If An Post were given the job it would cost a fraction of what its going to.

An Post can't deliver to the correct place with their famous geo directory in rural Ireland.

They could also be doing an Ordnance Survey job and asking to much for access which lead to the GPS mapping companies paying people to drive every road in the country to map it.

Then there's the issue when it costs more to add a new feature, postcode, to an old system, geo directory, than to just start with a clean slate. First you need to verify geo directory is 100% accurate, it isn't now, then make the postcode work with it. It's simpler to leave geo directory to An Post and create an accurate new system we own, even though we own An Post.

Victor

Folks, can we keep this to postcodes and not get into side discussions that are largely irrelevant?

Moderator

ben101

Jack180570 wrote: »

Im not sure that I see the logic or reason why the postcode work should be done by public sector/government rather than private sector given the wage rates paid it would appear that it will be a much more expensive enterprise if carried out by public sector... Average weekly earnings in the private sector in the first three months of the year (2013) was €628.26 and €913.25 in the public sector.

A private company will have to send thousands of people out to check every individual address. An post have thousands of routes with delivery staff walking/cycling them every day.When the geo directory needs updating its a simple matter of calling the staff in and sitting down ,going over the maps of each route .Takes about 30-60 minutes,very cheap to maintain,A private company would just not have the infrastructure to do this
When this government needed booklets dropped into every home in the country they tried to use a private company and failed miserably and ended up using An Post anyway.This happened at least twice to my knowledge.Sometimes cheaper is a false economy.

Sam Russell

Jack180570 wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056246218

ESB: average pay - €75,500, €94,300 including pension
Bord Gáis average pay - €67,300, €77,200 including pension
Bord na Móna average pay - €44,800, €46,900 including pension
Eirgrid average pay - €83,400, €96,900 - including pension
DAA average pay - €49,300, €51,700 - including pension
IAA average pay - €95,600, €120,300 -including pension
Dublin Port average pay - €67,900, €110,600 - including pension
CIE average pay - €49,100, €54,000 - including pension
An Post average pay - €59,700, €65,600 including pension
RTE average pay - €59,700, €65,600 including pension
Coillte average pay - €45,600, €63,700 including pension

What has this got to do with anything?

ben101

Jack180570 wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056246218

ESB: average pay - €75,500, €94,300 including pension
Bord Gáis average pay - €67,300, €77,200 including pension
Bord na Móna average pay - €44,800, €46,900 including pension
Eirgrid average pay - €83,400, €96,900 - including pension
DAA average pay - €49,300, €51,700 - including pension
IAA average pay - €95,600, €120,300 -including pension
Dublin Port average pay - €67,900, €110,600 - including pension
CIE average pay - €49,100, €54,000 - including pension
An Post average pay - €59,700, €65,600 including pension
RTE average pay - €59,700, €65,600 including pension
Coillte average pay - €45,600, €63,700 including pension

Those figures are complete garbage,sort of thing the papers drag out when there's a dispute.Most An Post delivery staff would be on half that.You would be lucky to get half that and thats including working flat out at xmas.Wages have been frozen since about 2007.Basic salary is €550,not exorbitant to say the least.

Curly Judge

ben101 wrote: »

Those figures are complete garbage,sort of thing the papers drag out when there's a dispute.Most An Post delivery staff would be on half that.You would be lucky to get half that and thats including working flat out at xmas.Wages have been frozen since about 2007.Basic salary is €550,not exorbitant to say the least.

I think the clue is in the word average?

ben101

Curly Judge wrote: »

I think the clue is in the word average?

I understand the concept of "average".If the "average" is €65,000 and most of the staff earn between €24,000-€40,000 ,well the board of directors must be pushing the "average "up.Don't take everything the newspapers print as fact especially those with strong links to government PR guru's.Anyway getting side tracked,surely postal codes would be better implemented by someone with expertise in the area ,the clue is in the word "postal"
getting some UK company in with no knowledge of the country would be a disaster.As i have said in other posts the government have tried to use private postal companies to deliver items to every address in the country and it didn't end well with about a third of the items undelivered.Either the private company didn't even know the address existed or weren't bothered delivering to remote places.

Delphic

ben101 wrote: »

......surely postal codes would be better implemented by someone with expertise in the area.....
getting some UK company in with no knowledge of the country would be a disaster.......

They're based here already and presumably the other members of the consortium will bring in the additional expertise/knowledge required. They're not building a rocket ship, it's building/rebuilding and managing a relatively small database.

Curly Judge

Delphic wrote: »

They're based here already and presumably the other members of the consortium will bring in the additional expertise/knowledge required. They're not building a rocket ship, it's building/rebuilding and managing a relatively small database.

They are obviously building something far more complicated than a rocket ship as they will have taken far longer than the time between JFK's speech and man walking on the moon.
Let's face it and call a spade a spade, the people involved in this corrupt fiasco deserve nothing but our derision and contempt.

Del2005

ben101 wrote: »

I understand the concept of "average".If the "average" is €65,000 and most of the staff earn between €24,000-€40,000 ,well the board of directors must be pushing the "average "up.Don't take everything the newspapers print as fact especially those with strong links to government PR guru's.Anyway getting side tracked,surely postal codes would be better implemented by someone with expertise in the area ,the clue is in the word "postal"
getting some UK company in with no knowledge of the country would be a disaster.As i have said in other posts the government have tried to use private postal companies to deliver items to every address in the country and it didn't end well with about a third of the items undelivered.Either the private company didn't even know the address existed or weren't bothered delivering to remote places.

It's called a post code but their not developing a system for sorting mail, they are developing a location code system to get everyone to any building in the country.

The reason why the private companies couldn't deliver was because An Post won't release their geo directory to other mail delivery companies. An Post have fought the implementation of post codes for years, why should they get the job to design the bullet that will kill them? Plenty of posters in other forums only order items delivered by the post person as couriers can't find their home or work. If they give it to An Post it will take ages as they will be out of business once the proposed location code system is released.

SPDUB

Del2005 wrote: »

The reason why the private companies couldn't deliver was because An Post won't release their geo directory to other mail delivery companies.

Please tell me why An Post should give away it's intellectual Property ( Geo Directory ) when just about no company does that .

People seem to be forgetting that while An Post is owned by the Government it is self financing and so charges for it's various services including Geo Directory

Del2005

SPDUB wrote: »

Please tell me why An Post should give away it's intellectual Property ( Geo Directory ) when just about no company does that .

People seem to be forgetting that while An Post is owned by the Government it is self financing and so charges for it's various services including Geo Directory

I never said they should release it. They will let anyone use it if they pay enough, but it's still not a good enough system as it still relies on the local post person knowing who lives in which house.

SPDUB

Del2005 wrote: »

I never said they should release it. They will let anyone use it if they pay enough, but it's still not a good enough system as it still relies on the local post person knowing who lives in which house.

No it doesn't .The information given by the local postman to the Geo Directory is the existence of a property , it's location , how many delivery points at each location and also nowadays whether any are low level

ben101

Del2005 wrote: »

It's called a post code .

Google postal code,i think you will find you can call it both http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postal_code

Del2005

SPDUB wrote: »

No it doesn't .The information given by the local postman to the Geo Directory is the existence of a property , it's location , how many delivery points at each location and also nowadays whether any are low level

Yet they still deliver the mail to the wrong place. What's the point in first finding out what's wrong with geo directory, then fixing it and then trying to make the new system work with it?