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National Postcodes to be introduced
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Well I hope the "solutions" offered by these various companies turn out to be substantially more advantageous to the public than the much cheaper (and in some cases free) postcodes/location codes discussed earlier in this thread, but I doubt it.
Unfortunately, there are no free postcodes - every one of them has a cost attached to implementing it.0 -
Unfortunately, there are no free postcodes - every one of them has a cost attached to implementing it.
Yes ,but some cost very little and others will snowball into a big cash cow for all involved.An Post have already mapped out every address in the country and i wouldn't say it would cost a lot to adapt that to attach codes to each point on the map but to start from scratch with companies that seem to have expertise in other fields seems a bit crazy.I just hope to god those costs they quoted are nailed down and they are not lying to us(again):rolleyes:0 -
Unfortunately, there are no free postcodes - every one of them has a cost attached to implementing it.
There will upfront cost to implementation and reoccurring costs to maintaining but IMO the key cost we should avoid are any eternal license to use fees for post code technology not owned by the state so we are not at the mercy of some private entity for generations. Once in place it will be used for a very long time.0 -
There will upfront cost to implementation and reoccurring costs to maintaining but IMO the key cost we should avoid are any eternal license to use fees for post code technology not owned by the state so we are not at the mercy of some private entity for generations. Once in place it will be used for a very long time.
Well said,this is just an excuse to sell off the crown jewels so private companies can come in and make a killing out of something that should remain controlled by us.If you looked closely these companies are probably very pally with some of our leaders,they way this country has been run makes me wonder who's best interests Kenny and Co. are really looking out for.0 -
Yes ,but some cost very little and others will snowball into a big cash cow for all involved.An Post have already mapped out every address in the country and i wouldn't say it would cost a lot to adapt that to attach codes to each point on the map but to start from scratch with companies that seem to have expertise in other fields seems a bit crazy.
Not sure it's about starting from scratch as opposed to starting from the right place. You would need to have a number of skills/expertise to do this properly.0 -
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Not sure it's about starting from scratch as opposed to starting from the right place. You would need to have a number of skills/expertise to do this properly.
So you pay someone to do work that's already done.It sounds like the electronic voting machines all over.I have had a look at the An Post system which you are fond of slagging an it will take a long time for a private company to come anywhere near the quality and accuracy of it.Even the simple logistics of it ,a private company won't be able to gain the same access that An Post have,in fact i can see men in suits and clipboards being chased off properties by angry farmers all over the country.The finished product will be full off mistakes and omissions,once again i will ask,is the price for the job quoted written in stone or will they be coming back cap in hand looking for three times the money they originally said they would do the job for.0 -
So you pay someone to do work that's already done…….
I think you actually agree with me. Postcode designs would appear to be easy and cheap to create - since companies/individuals are offering them for free, so easy to buy in that expertise. I agree about using an existing database to put the postcodes on - that will have a cost attached to it but presumably cheaper than creating a new one from scratch as you say. That's almost the easy part because you then have to put postcodes on all the millions of other addresses in other databases - that takes time and expertise - in IT and in addressing/ mapping. Then you have to inform households/businesses about it and get people/business using it. And you have to project manage the whole thing in a relatively short timeframe. So you need more skills and expertise than just using an existing database is all I'm saying.0 -
I think you actually agree with me. Postcode designs would appear to be easy and cheap to create - since companies/individuals are offering them for free, so easy to buy in that expertise. I agree about using an existing database to put the postcodes on - that will have a cost attached to it but presumably cheaper than creating a new one from scratch as you say. That's almost the easy part because you then have to put postcodes on all the millions of other addresses in other databases - that takes time and expertise - in IT and in addressing/ mapping. Then you have to inform households/businesses about it and get people/business using it. And you have to project manage the whole thing in a relatively short timeframe. So you need more skills and expertise than just using an existing database is all I'm saying.
Fair enough,i agree with a lot of what you say i just don't understand how An Post seem to be left out of the loop.Why not bring them in and use them for what they are experts in and the years of work they have already been working on it and let them work along side people that you refer to that have the other skills needed,win-win situation.I also think that the job of mapping every single building in the country is a hell of a lot more difficult than it sounds,An Post are in the unique position that they have thousands of people already on the ground who know these places like the backs of their hands.Once every so often you sit down each individual postman/woman and go through every single point on the map.That way you can pinpoint conflict of address,points with multiple addresses,derelict buildings,new builds and keep it current without sending people out on foot to march up every lane way and footpath in the country.A private company wouldn't have the same access to such a resource.It's not till you actually go out on a delivery that you realize what a mess the address system is in this country ,we seem very reluctant to put names and numbers on things so i would feel very sorry for someone that doesn't know a specific area trying to go in and figure it out.0 -
Fair enough,i agree with a lot of what you say i just don't understand how An Post seem to be left out of the loop.Why not bring them in and use them for what they are experts in and the years of work they have already been working on it and let them work along side people that you refer to that have the other skills needed,win-win situation.I also think that the job of mapping every single building in the country is a hell of a lot more difficult than it sounds,An Post are in the unique position that they have thousands of people already on the ground who know these places like the backs of their hands.Once every so often you sit down each individual postman/woman and go through every single point on the map.That way you can pinpoint conflict of address,points with multiple addresses,derelict buildings,new builds and keep it current without sending people out on foot to march up every lane way and footpath in the country.A private company wouldn't have the same access to such a resource.It's not till you actually go out on a delivery that you realize what a mess the address system is in this country ,we seem very reluctant to put names and numbers on things so i would feel very sorry for someone that doesn't know a specific area trying to go in and figure it out.
That is all captured in An Post GeoDirectory which will be used as the address database. So Capita won't have to reinvent the wheel. Will be interesting to see if Capita update the database themselves going forward or continue to use An Post.0 -
Leonard Shelby wrote: »That is all captured in An Post GeoDirectory which will be used as the address database. So Capita won't have to reinvent the wheel......
Oh. Well that answers that question then. Problem sorted.0 -
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Join Date:Posts: 19356
The post code database would contain Address: Post code: Geo location ; other stuff.
The first probem is that many properties do not have a unique adress. We have a electricity meter database, a gas meter database, an Post geo database, a property tax database, but no unique address for many properties.
That surely is the first problem that needs a solution.0 -
Sam Russell wrote: »The post code database would contain Address: Post code: Geo location ; other stuff.
The first probem is that many properties do not have a unique adress. We have a electricity meter database, a gas meter database, an Post geo database, a property tax database, but no unique address for many properties.
That surely is the first problem that needs a solution.
The solution is a unique postcode for every address - that puts a "number" on houses that don't have numbers.0 -
A few points:
Why are we still talking about postcodes - which neither the public nor on post wants or needs - when we should be talking about location codes?
Why should An Post have anything to do with location codes when the NRA, Land Registry or several other government agencies could probably handle it more efficiently and at least have an incentive to bring the thing to a conclusion? Even if some of them lacked incentive, at least they wouldn't have the clear disincentive An Post undoubtedly have.
As far as I can make out Capita has no commitment from Gov yet - no contract signed yet?
Capita must not have the skills necessary as they are now tendering for someone else to help with tech details?
Crazy that only thinking about design of postcode now considering they were in a collaborative tender process for 2.5 years where all was supposed to have been agreed and finalised!
Irish public will not voluntarily use a postcode designed with tax in mind!0 -
Sam Russell wrote: »The post code database would contain Address: Post code: Geo location ; other stuff.
The first probem is that many properties do not have a unique adress. We have a electricity meter database, a gas meter database, an Post geo database, a property tax database, but no unique address for many properties.
That surely is the first problem that needs a solution.
The postcode is unique to each property, that is the solution. This avoids the hassle of adding house name or number to addresses.0 -
Curly Judge wrote: »A few points:
Why are we still talking about postcodes - which neither the public nor on post wants or needs - when we should be talking about location codes?
As far as I can make out Capita has no commitment from Gov yet - no contract signed yet?
Capita must not have the skills necessary as they are now tendering for someone else to help with tech details?
Irish public will not voluntarily use a postcode designed with tax in mind!
The postcode is unique to each property, so you can call them location codes if you want.
The new tender is to assist Government, not Capita, probably for oversight, so contract must be already signed or nearly there.
Of course the public will use the postcode when it arrives. Do you think that someone calling emergency services from a rural address is not going to provide their postcode? Nonsense.0 -
There was a case recently of a woman who was using two different addresses for same address ,she was getting mail from two different D.O.'sLeonard Shelby wrote: »Of course the public will use the postcode when it arrives. Do you think that someone calling emergency services from a rural address is not going to provide their postcode? Nonsense.
An Post tried to get her to drop one of the addresses ,she complained to the ombudsman and WON!
You are talking nonsense if you think this will go smoothly.As i have said before the costs being quoted better be the price paid as i can see this sky rocketing.Every day there seems to be another company added into the mix.Surely with the geomap in place you don't need all these extra companies just to add codes onto it?To me it just seems like hyenas
looking for a free meal.0 -
We are in a similar situation our post is delivered from a sorting office in the next county, if we put Co. Roscommon as our address the post takes a slightly "scenic" route so we often use Co. Westmeath" as the address even though it's technically incorrect.There was a case recently of a woman who was using two different addresses for same address ,she was getting mail from two different D.O.'s
An Post tried to get her to drop one of the addresses ,she complained to the ombudsman and WON!0 -
Leonard Shelby wrote: »The postcode is unique to each property, so you can call them location codes if you want.
The new tender is to assist Government, not Capita, probably for oversight, so contract must be already signed or nearly there.
Of course the public will use the postcode when it arrives. Do you think that someone calling emergency services from a rural address is not going to provide their postcode? Nonsense.
The only nonsense is the the fact that this unique brand of Irish Gridlock is costing millions of euros and producing nothing.
A unique Identifier for each property does not mean a location code. The Geodirectory has a unique identifier for every property already (property ID) but that is not a location code. A Location code does not need a database (Geodirectory or otherwise) to interpret its location!
You seem to have the inside track on at least some of what's going on? The new tender says that no contract is signed yet with Capita and also looks for someone to help with postcode and database design. Capita has no experience in the area of postcodes so it seems that the Government (TAX PAYER) is now going to pay more so that Capita (or whoever is getting the contract) can earn their €15million!
PA consulting won a tender to do all the oversight for implementation back in 2010 - they achieved nothing but still got paid!
The collaborative postcode tender which went on from Jan 2011 to Oct 2013 was supposed to produce a postcode and all the technical detail but it has not obviously. So what did Capita offer to do for the 15 million - spend it on screwing tax payers when they do not pay their LPT, water charges or broadcast tax?
This is just another waste of public money and we are all being duped.
There are already working alternatives to help the emergency services find properties (and other locations) without waiting for another couple of years in the hope that we will be given a postcode which could not be used by them anyhow without sat navigation manufacturers and developers paying the state large amounts of money for the database to use it and for quarterly updates.... !0 -
Deleted User wrote: »We are in a similar situation our post is delivered from a sorting office in the next county, if we put Co. Roscommon as our address the post takes a slightly "scenic" route so we often use Co. Westmeath" as the address even though it's technically incorrect.
Must be Athlone so, most of town in Co. Westmeath and part of it in Co.Roscommon :pac:
Sounds crazy but its true, one address Athlone Co. Westmeath, another address next door Athlone Co. Roscommon
On the topic, AT LAST we will have a postcode system here. Finding an address is a nightmare and what a shame to explain to foreign people who are really suspicious thinking that I'm a criminal and try to hide my real address i.e. "that's right, it's a little country, everybody knows each other and postman knows you by name blah blah". All this is unthinkable from any foreigner perspective.0 -
There was a case recently of a woman who was using two different addresses for same address ,she was getting mail from two different D.O.'s
An Post tried to get her to drop one of the addresses ,she complained to the ombudsman and WON!
You are talking nonsense if you think this will go smoothly.As i have said before the costs being quoted better be the price paid as i can see this sky rocketing.Every day there seems to be another company added into the mix.Surely with the geomap in place you don't need all these extra companies just to add codes onto it?To me it just seems like hyenas
looking for a free meal.
The tender win was announced at the start of October and the other two members of the consortium have been released in a press release. Not exactly a new company every day, is it?
When "the woman with two addresses" receives post with her correct postcode it won't matter how her address is written, it will be sorted and delivered according to the postcode, problem solved.0 -
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Curly Judge wrote: »A unique Identifier for each property does not mean a location code. The Geodirectory has a unique identifier for every property already (property ID) but that is not a location code. A Location code does not need a database (Geodirectory or otherwise) to interpret its location!
Were you bullied by a database as a child? This is similar to the UK, you type a postcode into your satnav and it looks up the map coordinates in a database and guides you to the location. Why wouldn't that work here? A location code wouldn't mean a unique code for every address, the proposed postcode is better than that.
The other members of the consortium will be providing expertise for postcodes, that's how consortiums work. I doubt that Capita would be given a contract over An Post if they hadn't provided a comprehensive technical plan. Linking the postcode to tax is a red herring, LPT has happened without postcodes. Rural addresses will benefit the most from postcodes, you're just being alarmist.Curly Judge wrote: »You seem to have the inside track on at least some of what's going on? The new tender says that no contract is signed yet with Capita and also looks for someone to help with postcode and database design. Capita has no experience in the area of postcodes so it seems that the Government (TAX PAYER) is now going to pay more so that Capita (or whoever is getting the contract) can earn their €15million!
PA consulting won a tender to do all the oversight for implementation back in 2010 - they achieved nothing but still got paid!
The collaborative postcode tender which went on from Jan 2011 to Oct 2013 was supposed to produce a postcode and all the technical detail but it has not obviously. So what did Capita offer to do for the 15 million - spend it on screwing tax payers when they do not pay their LPT, water charges or broadcast tax?
This is just another waste of public money and we are all being duped.Curly Judge wrote: »There are already working alternatives to help the emergency services find properties (and other locations) without waiting for another couple of years in the hope that we will be given a postcode which could not be used by them anyhow without sat navigation manufacturers and developers paying the state large amounts of money for the database to use it and for quarterly updates.... !
Nothing in life is free. Either this is paid for from general taxation or you decide to charge companies that will benefit most from their use. I prefer the latter option, if I worked for a satnav company I'd probably prefer the former.
Chill out Curly, postcodes will be here in a little over a year, the world won't end when they arrive.0 -
Leonard Shelby wrote: »The tender win was announced at the start of October and the other two members of the consortium have been released in a press release. Not exactly a new company every day, is it?
When "the woman with two addresses" receives post with her correct postcode it won't matter how her address is written, it will be sorted and delivered according to the postcode, problem solved.
It's still two companies too many and it probably won't end there.More companies involved,more people who will want a share of the pie.
On the two addresses thing,my point is that a post code system won't be a miracle cure.You will still have a lot of people who will refuse to use it or use the wrong code ,if you know where the item is supposed to be going do you kill it off or give it too the wrong address because the code says so?0 -
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Leonard Shelby wrote: »The postcode is unique to each property, that is the solution. This avoids the hassle of adding house name or number to addresses.
Your missing my point. We do not have unique addresses. Most addresses are of the form:
Someone,
Townland,
Barony,
County.
There could be two Someones in Townland, Barony, County. How can you determine which is which?
Most roads in rural Ireland do not have names, and houses are randomly placed along them, without numbers. This is not a trivial matter. The postcode needs to be a bit better than a code for those that know it. It has to be duplicated into a discoverable address, so that it can be found from a long-hand address.
You would need to give everyone an address:
Someone,
number 10, Yellow Street,
Townland,
Barony,
County A12 34CD
That way, if you were in the vecinity of the particular house, every local could point out Yellow St, and you could then look for number 10, presumably next door to number 8 or number 9. Currently you would have to ask if the local knew the person, and knew where they lived.
Having a system that requires a satnav to find a location is not a solution.0 -
Leonard Shelby wrote: »Were you bullied by a database as a child? This is similar to the UK, you type a postcode into your satnav and it looks up the map coordinates in a database and guides you to the location. Why wouldn't that work here? A location code wouldn't mean a unique code for every address, the proposed postcode is better than that.
And with a location code you can input its alphanumerics into a sat nav and it'll bring you straight to the front door of your property.
Such a system is already available, already up and working and being used by hundreds of people all over the country.
Why are we reinventing the wheel here?
Whose pocket is the money going into?
And why?
Incidentally, how is your wonderful system going to identify apartment 27, block A, Laurel lodge?
Are you going to add it all on at the end of an 7 character alphanumeric?Leonard Shelby wrote: »Nothing in life is free. Either this is paid for from general taxation or you decide to charge companies that will benefit most from their use. I prefer the latter option, if I worked for a satnav company I'd probably prefer the former.
Another individual who believes in free lunches!
No matter what way the service is charged for it will end up at the customers or the taxpayers door. That's why it's so important to get value for money.Leonard Shelby wrote: »Chill out Curly, postcodes will be here in a little over a year, the world won't end when they arrive.
Postcodes will be up and running in the first quarter of 2015.....is that what you're saying?0 -
Postcodes will be up and running in the first quarter of 2015
At this stage, I'm so bored waiting that I simply don't care when they eventually get rolled out.0 -
You have hit the nail on the head, there's a reason we are one of the few places in the world without a proper post code system and its nothing to do with any conspiracies about An Post or whatever,it's because the address system is a nightmare and makes no sense.This is partially to do with peoples blase attitude to addresses making up their own number when they move into a house without checking the number is not in use etc and partially due to councils not putting up adequate signage or numbers.All very well giving a unique code but its not going to be printed over the door.One thing postal codes will help with is mass junk mail which nobody wants anyway.Ask any American what they get in the post and they will tell you its 99% crap.This is very bad for the environment and should be addressed ,allowing people to opt out before hand like you can with emails.Sam Russell wrote: »Your missing my point. We do not have unique addresses. Most addresses are of the form:
Someone,
Townland,
Barony,
County.
There could be two Someones in Townland, Barony, County. How can you determine which is which?
Most roads in rural Ireland do not have names, and houses are randomly placed along them, without numbers. This is not a trivial matter. The postcode needs to be a bit better than a code for those that know it. It has to be duplicated into a discoverable address, so that it can be found from a long-hand address.
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It's still two companies too many and it probably won't end there.More companies involved,more people who will want a share of the pie.
On the two addresses thing,my point is that a post code system won't be a miracle cure.You will still have a lot of people who will refuse to use it or use the wrong code ,if you know where the item is supposed to be going do you kill it off or give it too the wrong address because the code says so?
If the postcode doesn't match the address it goes for manual sortation. Rather than waste time trying to think of all the things that might go wrong why don't you spend time considering the fact that the UK postcode system works, and this one will be much better as it's a unique code. If you want to make arguments you need to have some facts to support your position.0 -
I'm not missing your point, you don't understand the problem. Currently local people knowing who lives in what house is the solution, with the local postman knowing everyone. You don't understand rural addressing if you think people will simply agree to number 10, Yellow Street being added to their address. And how long and by what method are you going to teach all the locals these new road names? Nonsense. Are you designing a solution for the Amish?Sam Russell wrote: »Your missing my point. We do not have unique addresses. Most addresses are of the form:
Someone,
Townland,
Barony,
County.
There could be two Someones in Townland, Barony, County. How can you determine which is which?
Most roads in rural Ireland do not have names, and houses are randomly placed along them, without numbers. This is not a trivial matter. The postcode needs to be a bit better than a code for those that know it. It has to be duplicated into a discoverable address, so that it can be found from a long-hand address.
You would need to give everyone an address:
Someone,
number 10, Yellow Street,
Townland,
Barony,
County A12 34CD
That way, if you were in the vecinity of the particular house, every local could point out Yellow St, and you could then look for number 10, presumably next door to number 8 or number 9. Currently you would have to ask if the local knew the person, and knew where they lived.
Having a system that requires a satnav to find a location is not a solution.
A solution where a delivery company or Emergency services can type your postcode into a satnav and find your house IS a solution.0 -
Well that's a pretty conclusive definition of failure, as the postcode needs to be used by millions. Having a postcode design is only a small part of introducing a postcode system, as the failure of alternative location code attempts clearly demonstrates.Curly Judge wrote: »Such a system is already available, already up and working and being used by hundreds of people all over the country.
Each address, including apartments, gets a unique 7 character alphanumeric, what part of that are you finding difficult to understand? You don't add more characters to it. EVERY postcode is 7 characters.Curly Judge wrote: »Incidentally, how is your wonderful system going to identify apartment 27, block A, Laurel lodge?
Are you going to add it all on at the end of an 7 character alphanumeric?
Spring 2015 is what they have said. Given that the Census is usually undertaken in April that would be my guess.Curly Judge wrote: »Postcodes will be up and running in the first quarter of 2015.....is that what you're saying?0 -
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Leonard Shelby wrote: »If the postcode doesn't match the address it goes for manual sortation. Rather than waste time trying to think of all the things that might go wrong why don't you spend time considering the fact that the UK postcode system works, and this one will be much better as it's a unique code. If you want to make arguments you need to have some facts to support your position.
Well my "facts" are twenty years working as a postman,i am not disputing bringing in post codes,i'm wary of bringing in companies that may have links with other companies and would open things up to unethical practice.Lets say one of the companies involved in the tender also owned most of the shares for a company that specialized in delivering junk mail,this would be unacceptable and the kind of thing we are sick of in this country.Keep it simple and get in help if you need it but i'm afraid it looks like the oil and gas thing again where we flog our national resources to the private market for buttons.0
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