National Postcodes to be introduced

Curly Judge

Leonard Shelby wrote: »

Well that's a pretty conclusive definition of failure, as the postcode needs to be used by millions. Having a postcode design is only a small part of introducing a postcode system, as the failure of alternative location code attempts clearly demonstrates.

Sez the representative of a system which isn't even out of bed yet, let alone capable of pulling its boots on.
Get some time in lad, and then come back and criticise people who have been working on this for years !

Leonard Shelby

Curly Judge wrote: »

Sez the representative of a system which isn't even out of bed yet, let alone capable of pulling its boots on.
Get some time in lad, and then come back and criticise people who have been working on this for years !

If you have been working for years on an alternative postcode, and you are now not part of the consortium, then you either need to persuade the consortium that your experience is required or move on to something else.

No point talking to me, I'm not a representative of anything other than my own opinions.

recedite

Curly Judge wrote: »

A few points:
Why are we still talking about postcodes - which neither the public nor on post wants or needs - when we should be talking about location codes?

Why should An Post have anything to do with location codes when the NRA, Land Registry or several other government agencies could probably handle it more efficiently and at least have an incentive to bring the thing to a conclusion? Even if some of them lacked incentive, at least they wouldn't have the clear disincentive An Post undoubtedly have....Irish public will not voluntarily use a postcode designed with tax in mind!

I agree the public only want and need a location code, which is already up and running at no cost to the exchequer. All it needs is a public endorsement from the State.
But there are two other aspects which will inevitably want to piggyback onto the location codes; the junk mail database and the government's "big brother" database.

Delphic wrote: »

I think you actually agree with me. Postcode designs would appear to be easy and cheap to create - since companies/individuals are offering them for free, so easy to buy in that expertise. I agree about using an existing database to put the postcodes on - that will have a cost attached to it but presumably cheaper than creating a new one from scratch as you say. That's almost the easy part because you then have to put postcodes on all the millions of other addresses in other databases - that takes time and expertise - in IT and in addressing/ mapping..

So what you are talking about here is integrating the location codes into this junk mail database, and whether it is more economical to pay for the use of An Post's Geodirectory as the base, or to create a new one.

Sam Russell wrote: »

The post code database would contain Address: Post code: Geo location ; other stuff.
The first probem is that many properties do not have a unique adress. We have a electricity meter database, a gas meter database, an Post geo database, a property tax database, but no unique address for many properties.

What you are talking about here is integrating a location code into the "big brother" database which would gather all these other "unique address" identifiers into just one code per property. For this to work properly, a particular location code would have to be registered as the "official" location code. I think it is quite feasible for the individual users to do this at no cost to the State.
(currently a user can possibly operate a number of different location codes around the same property, representing the roadside gate, the centre of the house etc..)
Personally i have no objection to the "big brother" aspect to this. We all have PPS numbers attached to ourselves and this just stuff just makes the civil service run more efficiently.

I am not happy with the junk mail aspect at all. It seems the State is paying consultancy fees to the junk mail people so that they can tweak the proposed postcode system to their own advantage, and then they can continue to exploit it into the future for private profit.

So it appears we have various groups in the consortium all trying to cash in on this. Capita had the right contacts to get the initial contract, Bearing Point have the big reputation and the IT personnell, Go Code with Tico Works are there to tie in new location codes to existing junk mail databases.

Curly Judge

recedite wrote: »

I agree the public only want and need a location code, which is already up and running at no cost to the exchequer. All it needs is a public endorsement from the State.
But there are two other aspects which will inevitably want to piggyback onto the location codes; the junk mail database and the government's "big brother" database.


So what you are talking about here is integrating the location codes into this junk mail database, and whether it is more economical to pay for the use of An Post's Geodirectory as the base, or to create a new one.

What you are talking about here is integrating a location code into the "big brother" database which would gather all these other "unique address" identifiers into just one code per property. For this to work properly, a particular location code would have to be registered as the "official" location code. I think it is quite feasible for the individual users to do this at no cost to the State.
(currently a user can possibly operate a number of different location codes around the same property, representing the roadside gate, the centre of the house etc..)
Personally i have no objection to the "big brother" aspect to this. We all have PPS numbers attached to ourselves and this just stuff just makes the civil service run more efficiently.

I am not happy with the junk mail aspect at all. It seems the State is paying consultancy fees to the junk mail people so that they can tweak the proposed postcode system to their own advantage, and then they can continue to exploit it into the future for private profit.

So it appears we have various groups in the consortium all trying to cash in on this. Capita had the right contacts to get the initial contract, Bearing Point have the big reputation and the IT personnell, Go Code with Tico Works are there to tie in new location codes to existing junk mail databases.

This question probably betrays my naivety, but surely it wouldn't be impossible in these days of vast computer databases to have an "opt out" button for people who don't want to receive junk mail?
Hopefully, even after the implementation of postal codes, we will retain some right to privacy?

ben101

Pat Rabbitte was proud to announce a while back that Ireland would be the first in the world to use this unique code system,a code for every house.Now that makes me nervous,are we so brilliant to have come across this system nobody else has thought of or is there a reason nobody has tried it before?If the Germans or Japanese ,U.S.,U.K. etc have used this system there is a reason.Does each code stay with a building forever or if a building gets demolished is it re-used?If a large house gets divided into twelve flats do each of the flats get a new code and if someone comes along 6 months time and splits 4 of the flats into 8,then 4 months after changes into 1 large flat?if the code stays with the building then even when its derelict can no one else use it,and if they can what happens if someone rebuilds the house and starts using the original code?If the codes stay with the building eventually you would have a huge expanding list of codes.If you don't do it that way and re use old codes then someone renovating an old building could end up getting mail with the old code or the mail could have his name but the code would now belong to a different address.Either way you look at it there is major flaws attached to the practicalities of it.i really can't see it taking off unless An Post have a bigger input because it seems very messy,people will be reluctant to use it if they currently have no issue with their post.This system may have looked great on paper and i am sure some suits in a focus group got a pat on the back for thinking it up but its a massive gamble to take with our money for a system that has never been tried out before.

SpaceTime

There are a few countries with unique-to-building post codes. Singapore being one example.

http://singpost.com/guides/145-customer-care/quick-guide-a-others/426-postal-code-finder.html

ben101

SpaceTime wrote: »

There are a few countries with unique-to-building post codes. Singapore being one example.

http://singpost.com/guides/145-customer-care/quick-guide-a-others/426-postal-code-finder.html

Well why did Pat Rabbitte say this""The Irish code will be the first in the world to be unique to each individual address."

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1008/479116-nationwide-postcode/
Any way Singapore is not a true country in that it is basically one big built up city-state would be a lot easier to implement unique codes there rather than somewhere like Ireland.

SpaceTime

Singapore has 5.2m people. It may be compact, but it would still have a lot of unique building addresses.

Ireland's just more spread out. It's not very built up though which is why I still think something geographically accurate makes more sense than building codes.

It's not like you can go building 1234578 in Leitrim is next to building 1234569..

ben101

SpaceTime wrote: »

Singapore has 5.2m people. It may be compact, but it would still have a lot of unique building addresses.

Ireland's just more spread out. It's not very built up though which is why I still think something geographically accurate makes more sense than building codes.

It's not like you can go building 1234578 in Leitrim is next to building 1234569..

I get your point but Singapore would be a very tightly controlled city where they would give you a code and that would be that.TV is highly censored, satellite dishes are banned ,most media companies are government controlled ,most of the properties would be in blocks of flats so very easy to implement.We can't even decide the names of streets here with some places using several different names.

SpaceTime

True, but we've come up with pretty decent systems for many other things:

Car registrations - pretty simple and usable.
Telephone numbering - extremely logical by any standards and hierarchical. In most countries area codes are pretty random.
Electronic tolling operating across multiple operators - works great.
NCT bookings - easy and efficient.
Online motortax - easy and efficient and no-nonsense.
In general I find any interactions I have with the Irish public service fairly pleasant or at least not unpleasant and they'll *usually* try to be helpful and find out stuff for you. Where as I've had nightmares elsewhere.

It's just anything involving the Government departments and tendering and certain older semi-states and QANGOs a long history of issues that you tend to get some issues.

I think one of the issues around Postal Codes is that FG actually actively campaigned against them at one stage as they'd bring in 'more junk mail'. So, I think there must be some back bench opposition to them or something that's causing them to constantly fall of the agenda.

It's that or they've no idea where the budget's coming from for it and it keeps falling off the end of a to do list.

Sam Russell

SpaceTime wrote: »

True, but we've come up with pretty decent systems for many other things:

I do not think the evidence is there to justify this particular idea. Paypars anyone. Or perhaps Electronic Voting Machines?

Car registrations - pretty simple and usable.

Most countries in Europe manage with 6 or 7 digits. e have a ridiculous system with variable length codes with upto a dozen digits (I include the two hyphens) and an even stupider idea that we can add digits when the motor traders demand it.. TS and TN (among others have disappeared (for future registrations). ZV registrations are beyond a joke.

Telephone numbering - extremely logical by any standards and hierarchical. In most countries area codes are pretty random.

Again variable length codes.

Electronic tolling operating across multiple operators - works great.
NCT bookings - easy and efficient.

..... for the operators. Government takes all the risk, operator takes the profits. Prices rise by consumer index, not iterest rates (which would be more apt for a capital project). As for NCT, try making an appointment.

Online motortax - easy and efficient and no-nonsense.

This does work, but does not check NCT. Oops.

In general I find any interactions I have with the Irish public service fairly pleasant or at least not unpleasant and they'll *usually* try to be helpful and find out stuff for you. Where as I've had nightmares elsewhere.

Highest paid in Europe, and the higher you go, the better the pay. No wonder they are pleasant.

It's just anything involving the Government departments and tendering and certain older semi-states and QANGOs a long history of issues that you tend to get some issues.

I think the word you are looking for here is corruption.

I think one of the issues around Postal Codes is that FG actually actively campaigned against them at one stage as they'd bring in 'more junk mail'. So, I think there must be some back bench opposition to them or something that's causing them to constantly fall of the agenda.

It's that or they've no idea where the budget's coming from for it and it keeps falling off the end of a to do list.

I think post codes are currently about delivering junk mail (and brown envelopes).

Why does every Gov contract go the foreign companies?

Leonard Shelby

ben101 wrote: »

Well why did Pat Rabbitte say this""The Irish code will be the first in the world to be unique to each individual address."

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1008/479116-nationwide-postcode/
Any way Singapore is not a true country in that it is basically one big built up city-state would be a lot easier to implement unique codes there rather than somewhere like Ireland.

Because there is a difference between a building level code and an address level code. Some buildings have many addresses, and this postcode will provide a unique identifier for each apartment. It will be the first in the world to do this.

Leonard Shelby

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think post codes are currently about delivering junk mail (and brown envelopes).

Why does every Gov contract go the foreign companies?

Keep thinking then, you might come up with more efficient delivery, faster Emergency services response times, better planning, better health research, more efficient access to government services, etc.,etc.,etc.

Capita Ireland will be delivering the project, along with local partners.

Leonard Shelby

ben101 wrote: »

Pat Rabbitte was proud to announce a while back that Ireland would be the first in the world to use this unique code system,a code for every house.Now that makes me nervous,are we so brilliant to have come across this system nobody else has thought of or is there a reason nobody has tried it before?If the Germans or Japanese ,U.S.,U.K. etc have used this system there is a reason.Does each code stay with a building forever or if a building gets demolished is it re-used?If a large house gets divided into twelve flats do each of the flats get a new code and if someone comes along 6 months time and splits 4 of the flats into 8,then 4 months after changes into 1 large flat?if the code stays with the building then even when its derelict can no one else use it,and if they can what happens if someone rebuilds the house and starts using the original code?If the codes stay with the building eventually you would have a huge expanding list of codes.If you don't do it that way and re use old codes then someone renovating an old building could end up getting mail with the old code or the mail could have his name but the code would now belong to a different address.Either way you look at it there is major flaws attached to the practicalities of it.i really can't see it taking off unless An Post have a bigger input because it seems very messy,people will be reluctant to use it if they currently have no issue with their post.This system may have looked great on paper and i am sure some suits in a focus group got a pat on the back for thinking it up but its a massive gamble to take with our money for a system that has never been tried out before.

A massive gamble to introduce a postcode system, like every other OECD country? Calm down. Postcodes will take off because they will form a part of normal interactions with different services because they increase efficiency and improve service for the customer.

A unique postcode is the simplest solution to our non-unique address issue in Ireland. They will be here in 2015, and we'll quickly wonder how we ever did without them...

Sam Russell

Leonard Shelby wrote: »

Keep thinking then, you might come up with more efficient delivery, faster Emergency services response times, better planning, better health research, more efficient access to government services, etc.,etc.,etc.

Capita Ireland will be delivering the project, along with local partners.

To achieve all of those things, you need to have unique addresses, not just unique post codes. Until people accept that addresses have to point to individual buildings, attaching a seven digit will only enable a satnav to find it.

I do not think the current absence of a seven digit identifier has anything to do with the effectiveness of planning, health research, or access to government services. It may help emergency services, but a unified fire/ambulance service would be of greater benefit. Most Some ambulances appear to be stuck outside hospitals, waiting for their trollies back.

ben101

Leonard Shelby wrote: »

A massive gamble to introduce a postcode system, like every other OECD country? Calm down. Postcodes will take off because they will form a part of normal interactions with different services because they increase efficiency and improve service for the customer.

A unique postcode is the simplest solution to our non-unique address issue in Ireland. They will be here in 2015, and we'll quickly wonder how we ever did without them...

Stop telling people to calm down and chill out ,you sound condescending and as you well know its not a postcode system like every other country.Why don't we take a tried and tested version of one of the many already being used in many European countries .It seems ridiculous to use a system that is not used in hardly any other country in the world.I asked several questions in a previous post and none were answered ,all you can say is "calm down".I can say without doubt there will be a lot of people who will not use it.Also could you please tell me which company you belong to because i am sick of hearing"UNIQUE POSTAL CODE!!!UNIQUE POSTAL CODE!!!"You definitely have a vested interest and i wish you had the honesty to show your cards,one of the reasons this will probably end in a big mess ,lack of transparency and all that.

Leonard Shelby

ben101 wrote: »

Stop telling people to calm down and chill out ,you sound condescending and as you well know its not a postcode system like every other country.Why don't we take a tried and tested version of one of the many already being used in many European countries .It seems ridiculous to use a system that is not used in hardly any other country in the world.I asked several questions in a previous post and none were answered ,all you can say is "calm down".I can say without doubt there will be a lot of people who will not use it.Also could you please tell me which company you belong to because i am sick of hearing"UNIQUE POSTAL CODE!!!UNIQUE POSTAL CODE!!!"You definitely have a vested interest and i wish you had the honesty to show your cards,one of the reasons this will probably end in a big mess ,lack of transparency and all that.

I see that telling you to calm down doesn't have the desired effect!
Our addresses in Ireland present different problems, hence the requirement for a different solution. It's as simple of that, and definitely not ridiculous.

I have a vested interest in postcodes being introduced as they will be of direct benefit to me. In exactly the same way that they will benefit everyone else.

ben101

Leonard Shelby wrote: »

I have a vested interest in postcodes being introduced as they will be of direct benefit to me. In exactly the same way that they will benefit everyone else.

Honest answer nicely avoided,well done!:rolleyes:
This is supposed to be a discussion about post codes from members of the public ,should not be hijacked by company reps as propaganda.If i am wrong ,i apologize.If i am right it would be truly pathetic for company execs to be trying to sway opinion in such a sly way.

Curly Judge

This whole debacle is such a shame.
We had the opportunity to bring in something really unique and usefull to the general community and it looks like we are going to blow it.
A location system based on the Ordnance Survey maps of Ireland which was capable of giving a unique position to every 8 meters squared of this fair and pleasant land.
With it you could have one unique code for your place of residence, another for an out farm and yet another for your warehouse [should you be lucky enough to have one].
The ESB could have a code for every pole, pylon and every transformer in the country.
Likewise Telecom Eireann and the RSA and Co Cos could mark every lamppost or road sign.
If you were holding a point to point or a car boot sale you could direct prospective customers there in the most efficient way possible.
This is to say nothing at all about delivery of goods or emergency services.
The system we are now [possibly] going to adopt has very little of this flexibility
Sure...it'll identify an apartment in the middle of an apartment block but it won't direct an ambulance to the best pickup point, because all it is - is another form of address and not a location code.
It will be wonderful for billing and tax purposes, and that is probably the reason it's been chosen.

Trick of the Tail

Exactly.

Because of the benefit of hindsight, and that we are alate adopter and therefore can look at the failings of other jurisdictions' systems, we have the opportunity to do it better than every other country.

But no.

This opportunity will be lost because of the usual vested interests, corruption, narrow vision and laziness.

Again.

ben101

Curly Judge wrote: »

This whole debacle is such a shame.
We had the opportunity to bring in something really unique and usefull to the general community and it looks like we are going to blow it.
A location system based on the Ordnance Survey maps of Ireland which was capable of giving a unique position to every 8 meters squared of this fair and pleasant land.
With it you could have one unique code for your place of residence, another for an out farm and yet another for your warehouse [should you be lucky enough to have one].
The ESB could have a code for every pole, pylon and every transformer in the country.
Likewise Telecom Eireann and the RSA and Co Cos could mark every lamppost or road sign.
If you were holding a point to point or a car boot sale you could direct prospective customers there in the most efficient way possible.
This is to say nothing at all about delivery of goods or emergency services.
The system we are now [possibly] going to adopt has very little of this flexibility
Sure...it'll identify an apartment in the middle of an apartment block but it won't direct an ambulance to the best pickup point, because all it is - is another form of address and not a location code.
It will be wonderful for billing and tax purposes, and that is probably the reason it's been chosen.

And we are unable to even have a sensible discussion about it without people that have a financial interest in one particular system hijacking the debate.I agree the system mentioned is full of flaws and people who will have a substantial monetary gain will be willing to overlook this and try to kill off any discussions of a better ,cheaper alternative.

Trick of the Tail

The motto of this country should be 'why do something properly when for a bit more effort and a lot more money you can cock it up.'

ben101

Trick of the Tail wrote: »

Exactly.

Because of the benefit of hindsight, and that we are alate adopter and therefore can look at the failings of other jurisdictions' systems, we have the opportunity to do it better than every other country.

But no.

This opportunity will be lost because of the usual vested interests, corruption, narrow vision and laziness.

Again.

Very good point.We have the chance to look at what the entire world has done ,their successes and failures and pick the best of a working model.But no,we are going to pick something never done anywhere ,because we are "special":rolleyes: Please someone stop this madness before it costs us 100's of millions to rectify it and the new post codes end up taking their place next to the electronic voting machines and other such innovative ideas.

Leonard Shelby

ben101 wrote: »

Honest answer nicely avoided,well done!:rolleyes:
This is supposed to be a discussion about post codes from members of the public ,should not be hijacked by company reps as propaganda.If i am wrong ,i apologize.If i am right it would be truly pathetic for company execs to be trying to sway opinion in such a sly way.

I'm merely correcting misunderstanding. The Government has decided an approach, so no one should bother trying to use propaganda to try to sway public opinion for personal gain. That's the agenda of another poster.

Leonard Shelby

Trick of the Tail wrote: »

Exactly.

Because of the benefit of hindsight, and that we are alate adopter and therefore can look at the failings of other jurisdictions' systems, we have the opportunity to do it better than every other country..

That's a good summary. That's what we should demand. Nothing announced so far suggests this won't happen.

Delphic

True, until there's more information.

Jack180570

Leonard Shelby wrote: »

I'm merely correcting misunderstanding. The Government has decided an approach, so no one should bother trying to use propaganda to try to sway public opinion for personal gain. That's the agenda of another poster.

What an arrogant, conceited an deceptive reply. .. the Government has decided so no one should question them. ... now that is propaganda. It was that 'blind faith in our leaders' that has got us in the mess we are in.
You are an educated and intelligent man. If I am correct in this assumption then your reply above would suggest that you have a vested interest as suggested by other posters and the reason you wrote the nonsensical reply is that your company/consultancy stands to gain financially from the current proposed plan. It would be helpful if we had full disclosure from you.

Victor

Sam Russell wrote: »

I do not think the evidence is there to justify this particular idea. Paypars anyone. Or perhaps Electronic Voting Machines?

On topic, please.

The lot of you stop bitching at each other and kindly use proper sentences and paragraphs.

Moderator

Leonard Shelby

Postcodes will arrive in 2015. There is no point continuing this discussion until further information is released confirming timelines, implementation methodology etc. so we can discuss facts rather than fiction. Happy New Year.

Postcodes will should arrive in 2015

fyp, we've been down this road several times already.