National Postcodes to be introduced

Jack180570

Leonard Shelby wrote: »

The chosen postcode design allows for other uses. That's the only advantage of not having introduced one until now, it allows maximum functionality/uses of postcodes to be catered for in the design.

Leonard,
I thought you had passed away when I hadn't seen any reply from you to the specific questions I asked you.
Now that I see you are alive and well I look forward to reading your replies.

Delphic

Leonard Shelby wrote: »

The chosen postcode design allows for other uses. That's the only advantage of not having introduced one until now, it allows maximum functionality/uses of postcodes to be catered for in the design.

Nibble, nibble……

Such as what?

recedite

Delphic wrote: »

Loc8 doesn't apply to every address, although linked to geocoords. The Govt one applies to every address but isn't directly linked to geocoords. They need order linked to geographical hierarchy - neither of them has it really.

Deleted User wrote: »

From what I can see, LOC8 is a two dimensional location code, it would need an altitude character to work in blocks of flats.

Loc8 normally identifies the main entrance door, so it may not seem to the govt. to be entirely suited for rented rooms, bedsits or apartments. That is no problem to the residents of course, because they would simply put Room 6 or Apt 10 or whatever in front of the code. Then the delivery vehicle or ambulance they have asked for will arrive at the main entrance, as expected.
For billing purposes though, Big Brother will want each address linked to a unique identifier code. People living in rented rooms and bedsits cannot have their own property tax, electricity or water meters, so that only leaves apartments.

Loc8 system CAN provide a unique code for each apartment if necessary.

Simply define a unique space around the building curtilage for each apt. and allocate accordingly. The pre-allocated car park spaces might do, or any notional spot around the grounds or on the roof. This unique identifier would still be linked to the general geo-coordinates of the building, thus satisfying both requirements; unique reference number and geo locating.
ESB networks do something similar with MPRN numbers; if a house is off-grid with no mains connection, they can allocate a virtual MPRN (meter point reference number) even though there is no physical ESB meter present.

The proposed govt. code is neither a unique identifier nor a geo code as far as I can see. In its original incarnation it was going to identify an area slightly smaller than a UK postcode would.
The "unique identifier" aspect dates back to a time when the (then) Minister in charge Eamonn Ryan copped onto this fatal flaw, and announced that it would henceforth have "a unique identifier" super-imposed onto his basic alphanumereic format. But millions of euro and several years later nobody has explained how this is possible.

Delphic

recedite wrote: »

Loc8 system CAN provide a unique code for each apartment if necessary.

Simply define a unique space around the building curtilage for each apt. and allocate accordingly. The pre-allocated car park spaces might do, or any notional spot around the grounds or on the roof. This unique identifier would still be linked to the general geo-coordinates of the building, thus satisfying both requirements; unique reference number and geo locating.
ESB networks do something similar with MPRN numbers; if a house is off-grid with no mains connection, they can allocate a virtual MPRN (meter point reference number) even though there is no physical ESB meter present

Interesting. Is this your proposed solution or a Loc8 solution? What would the resulting code for an apartment look like?

Leonard Shelby

Jack180570 wrote: »

Leonard,

The contract for the design, introduction and implementation of postcodes has not been signed.

The fact that the press release says that the contract has been 'awarded to Capita, subject to contract' means (and hopefully some solicitor or barrister or poster with a legal qualification can confirm) that IF the Government decide to sign the contract then Capita will deliver the postcode and equally, if the Government decide NOT TO SIGN the contract Capita will NOT deliver the postcode. Therefore you are not being honest when you portray the situation as a done deal, it is far from certain that Capita will be delivering postcodes in Ireland in 2015 or anytime thereafter.

Given the outcry here against what many honest hardworking people would view as a serious waste of money and given the free availability of Loc8 Codes that are genuinely brilliant I believe that there is every reason why people should contact their local TD's and Public Representatives and make them aware of the situation.

There is never a bad time to make a good decision.

I had mistakenly assumed that the postcode deniers would Loc8 to another thread now that we have confirmed rebuttal of their assertions:

1. No contract has been signed.
2. Direct Mailers are in the Consortium
3. Postcode design A65 B2CD hasn't been signed off

We now know all three assertions are false. This thread is meant to be about postcodes, Loc8 will play no part in delivering postcodes that will arrive next year. Time to move on.

Delphic

recedite wrote: »

The proposed govt. code is neither a unique identifier nor a geo code as far as I can see.

Each letterbox will have a unique postcode/ID. What can you not see?

Each postcode will presumably have geocoordinates assigned to it. And possibly with some buildings more than one set of coordinates linked to it.

Jack180570

Leonard Shelby wrote: »

I had mistakenly assumed that the postcode deniers would Loc8 to another thread now that we have confirmed rebuttal of their assertions:

1. No contract has been signed.
2. Direct Mailers are in the Consortium
3. Postcode design A65 B2CD hasn't been signed off

We now know all three assertions are false. This thread is meant to be about postcodes, Loc8 will play no part in delivering postcodes that will arrive next year. Time to move on.

Leonard,
Who is the 'we' you refer to?
We (I refer to the general public) have not been told by Government that contracts have been signed so the situation has not changed for us.
You, who profess not to be connected to anyone in the tender process are now claiming that the situation HAS charged, on what reliable facts do you rely when you claim the situation has changed?

recedite

Delphic wrote: »

Each letterbox will have a unique postcode/ID. What can you not see?

Each postcode will presumably have geocoordinates assigned to it. And possibly with some buildings more than one set of coordinates linked to it.

I'm not sure if they still intend to get the initials of the town and/or the existing Dublin area codes in (D4 etc); if so there may not be sufficient unique combinations left of the remaining digits for every letterbox in a built up area.

If they tag geo-coordinates onto the postcode, wouldn't that make it a rather a long code?
Eg; A65 B2CD, 53 01 565 North, 06 05 117 East

As for the "confirmed rebuttals", all we have is a few tweets, and they are not exactly neutral sources either.

Leonard Shelby

recedite wrote: »

I'm not sure if they still intend to get the initials of the town and/or the existing Dublin area codes in (D4 etc); if so there may not be sufficient unique combinations left of the remaining digits for every letterbox in a built up area.

If they tag geo-coordinates onto the postcode, wouldn't that make it a rather a long code?
Eg; A65 B2CD, 53 01 565 North, 06 05 117 East

A65 B2CD is the postcode. The geo-coordinates, address, etc. are stored in a database.

recedite wrote: »

As for the "confirmed rebuttals", all we have is a few tweets, and they are not exactly neutral sources either.

Not neutral, just actually in the Consortium. I can't see BearingPoint and Autoaddress both confirming the same consortium members unless its true.

Delphic

recedite wrote: »

I'm not sure if they still intend to get the initials of the town and/or the existing Dublin area codes in (D4 etc); if so there may not be sufficient unique combinations left of the remaining digits for every letterbox in a built up area.

That's a very good point. There must be excess capacity within each area. To cope with wings being built onto apartments and such like.

If they tag geo-coordinates onto the postcode, wouldn't that make it a rather a long code?
Eg; A65 B2CD, 53 01 565 North, 06 05 117 East

:Face palm:
Tag? Never mind. They'll work it out - don't worry about it.

Jack180570

Leonard Shelby wrote: »

A65 B2CD is the postcode. The geo-coordinates, address, etc. are stored in a database.

Not neutral, just actually in the Consortium. I can't see BearingPoint and Autoaddress both confirming the same consortium members unless its true.

Leonard,
I'm tempted to ask the Moderator to ban you from this thread. You express your opinions as facts and when you are questioned about your statements you fail to respond. Whether your failure to respond is down to your 'facts' being simple untruths or a very poor upbringing I'm not sure, but whatever the reasons, your contributions to this discussion are not helpful in my opinion.

ben101

Don't think seven digits is enough ,in theory you could have a property on 100 acres that will get 1 code but subsequently could be broken up into thousands of addresses over the years and what about when all these ghost estates get finished when the economy turns around?Have they codes designated or will they get one when they are inhabited.There are also the 1.5 million or so of properties not yet built but were approved permission by councils across the country in the cash rich times.

Delphic

Jack180570 wrote: »

Leonard,
I'm tempted to ask the Moderator to ban you from this thread. You express your opinions as facts and when you are questioned about your statements you fail to respond. Whether your failure to respond is down to your 'facts' being simple untruths or a very poor upbringing I'm not sure, but whatever the reasons, your contributions to this discussion are not helpful in my opinion.

"A very poor upbringing?"

Are you for real?

recedite

So we have two fundamental problems then.

1. This letterbox code can only enable delivery to an address if the GPS device being used has access to the govt. database which would contain the geo co-ordinates. The same database would presumably keep confidential the other billing info which they may have gathered.
The sat nav device would have to have a large and regularly updated memory, or be normally connected to some form of WAP or the internet.

2. The code applies to the letterbox, not necessarily to the apartment. The letterbox could be in the foyer of the block, or even in a parcel motel some distance away. A letterbox is all you need for sending a property tax bill to, but not so good for calling an ambulance to.

From the govt. press office we have these statements;

individual apartments and offices in large developments will each have an individual code as long as specific post-boxes are provided.

The Postcode will be a 7 character code in the format A65 B2CD, with the first three characters relating to a general area or postal district in which the address is located. In Dublin, existing postal districts will appear as the first three characters of the new postcode.

Now if the first 3 digits are say D12, that leaves 4 more digits to cover every letterbox in Dublin 12, and every future letterbox, and all in some kind of sequential order. Is that possible?

Delphic

recedite wrote: »

So we have two fundamental problems then.

1. This letterbox code can only enable delivery to an address if the GPS device being used has access to the govt. database which would contain the geo co-ordinates. The same database would presumably keep confidential the other billing info which they may have gathered.
The sat nav device would have to have a large and regularly updated memory, or be normally connected to some form of WAP or the internet.

2. The code applies to the letterbox, not necessarily to the apartment. The letterbox could be in the foyer of the block, or even in a parcel motel some distance away. A letterbox is all you need for sending a property tax bill to, but not so good for calling an ambulance to.

From the govt. press office we have these statements;Now if the first 3 digits are say D12, that leaves 4 more digits to cover every letterbox in Dublin 12, and every future letterbox, and all in some kind of sequential order. Is that possible?

1. How do satnavs in other countries handle postcodes linked to databases? An address database wouldn't have confidential billing information. It would have address information.



2. There isn't enough information available yet on the code design. How do you know that the last four characters will be digits since the example given has letters in two of the character positions? And how do you know they will be sequential?

Letterbox is a descriptor for the kind of code that's been designed - one for every address point that receives mail. I doubt remote lock boxes are official delivery addresses for mail. Although they could be given a special postcode I suppose.

Anyways, this is my last post on this topic. Thanks for discussion.

Froststop

Delphic wrote: »

"A very poor upbringing?"

Are you for real?

I'm sorry, but I would also agree with Jack180570, there seems to be some favouritism going on here. We have all been banned/warned from time to time for breaking Boards rules, yet you and LS seem to get away with promoting the postcode contract as you try to damage other companies.

I would think it's you two have the poor upbringing and no shame!

ben101

recedite wrote: »

Now if the first 3 digits are say D12, that leaves 4 more digits to cover every letterbox in Dublin 12, and every future letterbox, and all in some kind of sequential order. Is that possible?

Good point,i personally don't think it is,not enough leeway for the likes of parcels of land,even in Dublin city center,that could potentially be turned into thousands of addresses.The government are trying to free thousands of acres of land in Dublin to combat rising property prices to stop another bubble.if they are successful surely they could run out of viable codes?

recedite

Delphic wrote: »

1. How do satnavs in other countries handle postcodes linked to databases? An address database wouldn't have confidential billing information. It would have address information.



2. There isn't enough information available yet on the code design. How do you know that the last four characters will be digits since the example given has letters in two of the character positions? And how do you know they will be sequential?

1. A letterbox code is more sensitive to change than address building postcodes. Very few countries have postcodes supported on sat-navs as "post"codes are not suited to navigation. Those that do are not as sensitive as this proposed letterbox code... whilst updates could be provided quarterly (at a fee) as with Geodirectory but building subdivisions change more frequently - offices amalgamating/separating etc etc.

Most Satnav owners do not update the mapping on their sat-navs there is no reason to believe that they would pay for postcode updates either - a critical issue for public safety!

2. You are correct on the terminology, I should have said there are 4 "characters" available for all the codes, now and into the future,within each Dublin postal district, not 4 "digits". If they are not organised into some kind of sequential order it will make them less useful and less intuitive to use.
If area codes adjacent to each other have a random combination of letters/numbers, people will have to look up the govt. database to get an idea of where the location is, even though it might be only round the corner from them. That would make it inferior to UK postcodes and Loc8 codes. Each 1km grid in a loc8 code is designed to be adjacent to the code with the next character in the sequence, ie they are "concatenated".
Although you keep saying that designing the code itself is "the simple part" it is not all that simple to design a really good system.

The tragedy of all this is that we already have a good Irish designed system that is valued by those who already use it, yet we as a country are paying foreign consultancy firms to come in and give us their own slapstick solution.

Carawaystick

4 characters assuming only one of O/0 I/1 are used will give 34^4 or 1.3 million plus

ben101

recedite wrote: »

1. If they are not organised into some kind of sequential order it will make them less useful and less intuitive to use.
If area codes adjacent to each other have a random combination of letters/numbers, people will have to look up the govt. database to get an idea of where the location is, even though it might be only round the corner from them.

You have hit the nail on the head there,This point has come up before yet those posters who have been most vocal remain strangely quiet.Would someone please explain to me too,are they sequential?Even if they are,because every letterbox will have one it will be a nightmare if a building gets divided into separate addresses ,1 address can become a hundred and this is where i see a major flaw and if its not sequential it would be pretty much impossible to use it without a sat nav.Also can someone explain if it is such a great system why no one else is using it?The only environment this could work is in an extremely dense city full of flats and where the government has a rigid control over names of streets etc,planning etc. ,like Singapore.If someone could show me this system working well in the world somewhere i might feel a bit better about it but at the moment i just cannot see it working on a practical level.

Carawaystick

Carawaystick wrote: »

4 characters assuming only one of O/0 I/1 are used will give 34^4 or 1.3 million plus

That should be sufficient assuming that the 24 existing Dublin codes cover about 1 million addresses combined.

SPDUB

Deleted User wrote: »

That should be sufficient assuming that the 24 existing Dublin codes cover about 1 million addresses combined.

I believe Dublin 12 has about 30,000 to 40,000 delivery points and that's one of the bigger delivery offices so that would leave plenty of room for expansion .

Leonard Shelby

ben101 wrote: »

You have hit the nail on the head there,This point has come up before yet those posters who have been most vocal remain strangely quiet.Would someone please explain to me too,are they sequential?Even if they are,because every letterbox will have one it will be a nightmare if a building gets divided into separate addresses ,1 address can become a hundred and this is where i see a major flaw and if its not sequential it would be pretty much impossible to use it without a sat nav.Also can someone explain if it is such a great system why no one else is using it?The only environment this could work is in an extremely dense city full of flats and where the government has a rigid control over names of streets etc,planning etc. ,like Singapore.If someone could show me this system working well in the world somewhere i might feel a bit better about it but at the moment i just cannot see it working on a practical level.

While we haven't heard yet about any attempt at hierarchy or order in the last four characters it is safe to assume that you will need a Sat-Nav or PC/smartphone/tablet to locate a postcode. Sat-Navs need to store data and have it updated, while connected devices don't (think google maps on your smartphone, you don't have the maps on the device itself).

Can you please outline a scenario where someone would have a postcode, without an address, and not have access to satnav/smartphone and haven't located the postcode on a map before setting off.

ben101

Leonard Shelby wrote: »

it is safe to assume that you will need a Sat-Nav or PC/smartphone/tablet to locate a postcode. .

Well that will make it awkward for a lot of the elderly,anyone delivering to thousands of houses if the codes are sporadic,anyone that's not on a bill pay plan and hasn't got free internet,anyone with an aging phone,any one that's a technophobe(there are a lot of people out there that don't have a good grasp on technology).And in case you haven't noticed times are hard and not everyone can afford an Iphone or an Ipad,a little elitist don't you think?
A post code system that you need hi tech equipment to locate an address is pretty useless in the everyday practical uses a post code might have to be used
by EVERYONE ,not just the tech savvy.

ben101

ben101 wrote: »

Well that will make it awkward for a lot of the elderly,anyone delivering to thousands of houses if the codes are sporadic,anyone that's not on a bill pay plan and hasn't got free internet,anyone with an aging phone,any one that's a technophobe(there are a lot of people out there that don't have a good grasp on technology).And in case you haven't noticed times are hard and not everyone can afford an Iphone or an Ipad,a little elitist don't you think?
A post code system that you need hi tech equipment to locate an address is pretty useless in the everyday practical uses a post code might have to be used
by EVERYONE ,not just the tech savvy.

What you are describing is an issue that applies to ALL geo-location systems, if you need to locate the address without using technology, then you'll need to buy a (book of) maps.

Leonard Shelby

,anyone delivering to thousands of houses if the codes are sporadic

Postcodes will be a major assistance to all delivery companies. Deliveries can be better planned and ordered. Are you concerned about door to door direct mail delivery?

,anyone that's not on a bill pay plan and hasn't got free internet,anyone with an aging phone,any one that's a technophobe(there are a lot of people out there that don't have a good grasp on technology).And in case you haven't noticed times are hard and not everyone can afford an Iphone or an Ipad,a little elitist don't you think?

I don't think it's elitist to talk about connected devices. Broadband plus PC equals connected device. Not everyone has one of these devices or decent broadband but they get the benefit of delivery and emergency services arriving faster when they provide their own postcode. I don't think a location code gives these people anything better.

post code system that you need hi tech equipment to locate an address is pretty useless in the everyday practical uses a post code might have to be used
by EVERYONE ,not just the tech savvy.

Please give examples of your so called everyday practical uses, as UK everyday practical use requires a database and it doesn't appear to be a problem.

Addresses are not disappearing.

Curly Judge

To recap:
What we have to date is a postcode which has been arrived at by an incompetent and corrupt process.
A postcode which An post will refuse to use.
A postcode whose main advantage is its ability to locate property for taxing purposes.
Isn't it great to live in a country so well and efficiently governed?

ben101

Curly Judge wrote: »

To recap:
What we have to date is a postcode which has been arrived at by an incompetent and corrupt process.
A postcode which An post will refuse to use.
A postcode whose main advantage is its ability to locate property for taxing purposes.
Isn't it great to live in a country so well and efficiently governed?

Couldn't have said it better myself,still haven't heard anyone explain why we are using something untested,still haven't heard anyone explain why ,if it is such a good system,its not already used everywhere.There's a reason its not used every where and we will find that out at great cost when its rolled out next year.

Grab All Association

I wonder will Gary make a reappearance on here. Prison forum always makes me laugh

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057116528&page=2

Probably what Gary did before he came on here to post as a woman

Anyway back on topic I can't wait for postcodes as a guy down the road has the same name as me and we get each others post all the time.

Froststop

Chris___ wrote: »

Anyway back on topic I can't wait for postcodes as a guy down the road has the same name as me and we get each others post all the time.

All it would take to sort is for one of you to put a name on your house and include it on the address.