National Postcodes to be introduced

ben101

Froststop wrote: »

All it would take to sort is for one of you to put a name on your house and include it on the address.

That is the best option ,the postcode won't be physically written over the door so you will still get human error,house names are the best way of telling one address from the other when you have two people on the same rd with the same name.

recedite

Carawaystick wrote: »

4 characters assuming only one of O/0 I/1 are used will give 34^4 or 1.3 million plus

Yes, 1.3 million totally random combinations.
If you were to have some sort of logical sequence to the codes, relating them to actual local areas on the ground adjacent to each other, you would have a lot less combinations available. And if you take out confusing combinations of numbers like 1,0 and the letters I,O less again.

Basically this "code" is just a random reference number, which may be used by a computer to look up a controlled database, which would contain the real co-ordinates of the location.

Unlike a loc8 code which contains the actual co-ordinates within the code, and also has the adjacent areas in a grid sequenced.

And unlike a UK postcode which can give you a rough idea of the location just by looking at it.

It can't really be called a "code" at all. A code contains information. This is just a reference number.

It seems the focus will be on people quoting it in web form when paying property tax, water charges, broadcast tax etc.. rather than using it in real world.

It also seems unlikely that An Post will use it for sorting - their support will be GeoDirectory and they will continue to use their own sort codes.

ben101

recedite wrote: »

ed.

And unlike a UK postcode which can give you a rough idea of the location just by looking at it.

It can't really be called a "code" at all. A code contains information. This is just a reference number.

It seems the focus will be on people quoting it in web form when paying property tax, water charges, broadcast tax etc.. rather than using it in real world.

It also seems unlikely that An Post will use it for sorting - their support will be GeoDirectory and they will continue to use their own sort codes.

Agree with you,i'm a postie and i can't see An Post adopting it without having a bigger input and to be honest it's not really needed to deliver post as we are pretty good at locating addresses.:D

Leonard Shelby

ben101 wrote: »

Agree with you,i'm a postie and i can't see An Post adopting it without having a bigger input and to be honest it's not really needed to deliver post as we are pretty good at locating addresses.:D

I agree, absolutely brilliant at delivering post. I don't think postcodes will help you to deliver post. They will help An Post to sort more post automatically, as OCR postcode recognition is a doddle compared to OCR address recognition. They will also allow all the other delivery companies to deliver to rural households, those that don't have local postmen knowledge.

ben101

Leonard Shelby wrote: »

I agree, absolutely brilliant at delivering post. I don't think postcodes will help you to deliver post. They will help An Post to sort more post automatically, as OCR postcode recognition is a doddle compared to OCR address recognition. They will also allow all the other delivery companies to deliver to rural households, those that don't have local postmen knowledge.

Already a lot presorted to routes and getting more so as technology increases ,reading hand writing etc.and unless the new codes are sequential they won't be nearly as good as the way we do it now OCR postcode recognition won't be much use for An Post as they will have very little say in the implementation of the codes to suit the way the routes are set up now.,almost everything printed can be route sorted now so whats the point other than junk mailing on a massive scale?

Froststop

Leonard Shelby wrote: »

I agree, absolutely brilliant at delivering post. I don't think postcodes will help you to deliver post. They will help An Post to sort more post automatically, as OCR postcode recognition is a doddle compared to OCR address recognition. They will also allow all the other delivery companies to deliver to rural households, those that don't have local postmen knowledge.

If An Post use this code they will have to pay millions to adjust their system to read and use the code instead of the post-town reading they already do. They do not sort to house they sort to post town and then in post-town they manually sort to routes - they are not going to spend millions changing all this now to read the first 3 digits of a code instead of the post-town which they have perfected over the last 10 years! Plus we are being told by you on politics.ie that the first 3 digits will be set up to match An Post post-town sorting districts to begin with but will not be maintained when An Post change as they do regularly - 25% decrease in mail volume over the last few years and losses in the mail business. So why would they set up at a potential cost of millions to read the first 3 characters of the Capita Code when it may not match their system at all in a few years!

Leonard Shelby

Froststop wrote: »

They do not sort to house they sort to post town and then in post-town they manually sort to routes - they are not going to spend millions changing all this now to read the first 3 digits of a code instead of the post-town which they have perfected over the last 10 years!

No. They are going to spend money to read all 7 characters of the code to enable them to sort to building. Automatically. That's obvious.

ben101

Leonard Shelby wrote: »

No. They are going to spend money to read all 7 characters of the code to enable them to sort to building. Automatically. That's obvious.

As i already said,an awful lot of post is presorted to the routes before it even arrives in the D.O.'s .What you are talking about is already happening.A couple of years back you might get one or two small bundles of presorted,now you could have 50-70% and its climbing all the time.An Post have invested millions in a system that is working great at the moment and is used by other post offices all over the world,are they really going to invest big money in a system that is basically untried and untested?

Leonard Shelby

ben101 wrote: »

As i already said,an awful lot of post is presorted to the routes before it even arrives in the D.O.'s .What you are talking about is already happening.A couple of years back you might get one or two small bundles of presorted,now you could have 50-70% and its climbing all the time.An Post have invested millions in a system that is working great at the moment and is used by other post offices all over the world,are they really going to invest big money in a system that is basically untried and untested?

If An Post want to simply "skip" the postcode element and continue to use their new improved technology that is a decision for themselves, but it doesn't seem like a reasonable long term plan. From 2015 onwards postcodes will be appearing on post and An Post will need to be able to deal with that.

recedite

As long as the govt. can be sure they are collecting a tax from every letterbox in the country, and as long as a few cute hoors with the contract to deliver this system can make a few quid on the side selling addresses to the junk mail industry......
shurr what more do ye want?

ben101

Leonard Shelby wrote: »

From 2015 onwards postcodes will be appearing on post and An Post will need to be able to deal with that.

By "deal"You mean by ignoring them and keep using a system that is working perfectly well already?

JohnC.

Presumably they will have to learn to deal with it if they get letters addressed to little more than the postcode.

If the postcode can get post to the specific address, then name and postcode should be enough to get a letter to the intended recipient, right? Do you think An Post are going to start refusing to deliver post unless it's got a full address? I couldn't see that ending well.

Kahless

Kahless wrote: »

Presumably they will have to learn to deal with it if they get letters addressed to little more than the postcode.

If someone posts a letter with only the postcode, they'll have to run it through the OCR or type it into the database to get the address so they could deliver it

JohnC.

Hence them having to deal with it as opposed to ignoring the new system.

ben101

Kahless wrote: »

Presumably they will have to learn to deal with it if they get letters addressed to little more than the postcode.

If the postcode can get post to the specific address, then name and postcode should be enough to get a letter to the intended recipient, right? Do you think An Post are going to start refusing to deliver post unless it's got a full address? I couldn't see that ending well.

You are missing my point.An Post don't have a problem getting mail from A to B at the moment so they will just continue doing what they are doing.Why adopt another system that you had little to do with developing and get rid of one that works?

ben101

If there is only a post code its still insufficient,the letter would be returned to sender,if you start delivering mail with postcodes only people would get lazy and that's all they would put.If you got a mass mailing onto your route with just codes it would be a nightmare to throw it up into the frame,

Curly Judge

Kahless wrote: »

Hence them having to deal with it as opposed to ignoring the new system.

I heard nothing about doing away with addresses, no matter what system is introduced?
What this conversation is showing up is the lack of need for a postal code and the absolute need for a location code.
In time honoured fashion the government will give us what we don't need and deny us what we do.

SpaceTime

Actually, for An Post's system postcodes would just improve the accuracy of it and the speed of it.

It basically reads the address and attempts to match it to a database.
If the post code's on the letter, it just means it will be able to much more accurately match it and without any fuss.

So, from An Post's perspective it means business as usual but increased reliability of the sorting system and it should reduce the need for so many manual interventions.

JohnC.

ben101 wrote: »

If there is only a post code its still insufficient,the letter would be returned to sender,if you start delivering mail with postcodes only people would get lazy and that's all they would put.If you got a mass mailing onto your route with just codes it would be a nightmare to throw it up into the frame,

I didn't say only a postcode. I said little more than a postcode. Am I wrong in taking from what I've read that a postcode and a name should get it to a person? I thought a postcode gets it to a unique address.

JohnC.

Curly Judge wrote: »

I heard nothing about doing away with addresses, no matter what system is introduced

Probably because nobody said it. It's just my understanding that a postcode can technically replace an address as an option for the sender. I said nothing to imply addresses are being done away with.

ben101

Kahless wrote: »

I didn't say only a postcode. I said little more than a postcode. Am I wrong in taking from what I've read that a postcode and a name should get it to a person? I thought a postcode gets it to a unique address.

Make no mistake ,these are really reference codes for tax purposes and the like ,as for a national mail carrier needing them to deliver mail,they are next to useless unless An Post have a bigger say in implementing them which to my knowledge they were pretty much left out of the loop.

recedite

Kahless wrote: »

It's just my understanding that a postcode can technically replace an address as an option for the sender.

In theory the govt. could bring in a law to say that a "letterbox code"/ reference number could be used/substituted as a legal address, in which case An Post would be forced to use them. That seems unlikely though. Currently An Post is only obliged to deliver post when it has the proper address, otherwise they can return to sender or deliver it late with a big sticker on it saying "incorrect address".
The question of what is the proper legal address (currently) is a matter of some dispute between An Post and Comreg, but An Post say it is whatever they want it to be, and it should contain the name of the town with their nearest sorting office.

ben101

recedite wrote: »

In theory the govt. could bring in a law to say that a "letterbox code"/ reference number could be used/substituted as a legal address, in which case An Post would be forced to use them. That seems unlikely though. Currently An Post is only obliged to deliver post when it has the proper address, otherwise they can return to sender or deliver it late with a big sticker on it saying "incorrect address".
The question of what is the proper legal address (currently) is a matter of some dispute between An Post and Comreg, but An Post say it is whatever they want it to be, and it should contain the name of the town with their nearest sorting office.

Lets say for arguments sake An Post accept post with just post code numbers and no addresses ,you are 3 miles on your bike from the delivery office on a route for the first time and you have a bundle with a hundred such items which you drop on the ground and they scatter ,if they are addressed you could sort it out ,pain in the posterior that it would be ,but it would just delay you.Now lets say you drop a hundred items that have just numbers on them ,,you are royaly fecked as houses won't have the unique code printed over the door,well maybe Pat Rabbittes next move is to hire a junior minister for unique codes above doors,who knows?

recedite

I agree it would be a stupid move. It would also make things very difficult for couriers etc..

Whats needed is a standard location code to be added onto the end of existing addresses. Something optional that helps postmen, couriers, tradesmen, tourists etc. find their way to the property they are looking for. And without having to look-up and subscribe to some database.

SpaceTime

What you tend to get on the continent a lot is something like

12 Main Street,
TOWN 1234567

In the 20th century, the need to write a full hierarchy of Street, Suburb, City, County disappeared to the level that in most cases it's just Suburb+Code.

It is a little weird though as you've often no idea that somewhere like say

123 rue madeup
Neuilly-sur-Seine 92200

is actually in Paris.

ben101

And bear in mind if we became too reliant on these codes to the extent people were omitting most off the address people will still make mistakes and especially if its handwritten it can be misread.So someone with ABCD123 posts to WXYZ456.The B becomes smudged in bad weather and looks like an E ,the 6 looks like a five.The wrong person gets it ,sends it back to the wrong address.More detail on an address the better.We are very reluctant, for instance, to put return addresses on anything.

Curly Judge

Watching Brian Conlan being excoriated [ quite rightly] at the PAC for sitting in at a meeting [to select a new CEO] where he was selected as CEO of the CRC, I got to thinking: How is that different from a guy sitting on a committee to advise the government on how to bring in postal codes and then getting his company selected for the same job?
There is probably some quaint subtlety here which has slipped past my Public Governance radar?

ben101

Curly Judge wrote: »

Watching Brian Conlan being excoriated [ quite rightly] at the PAC for sitting in at a meeting [to select a new CEO] where he was selected as CEO of the CRC, I got to thinking: How is that different from a guy sitting on a committee to advise the government on how to bring in postal codes and then getting his company selected for the same job?
There is probably some quaint subtlety here which has slipped past my Public Governance radar?

I think you have a point,its just not news at the moment.As it comes nearer to the introduction date the media will scrutinize it more and if there is anything untoward there it will all come out then.

Jack180570

ben101 wrote: »

I think you have a point,its just not news at the moment.As it comes nearer to the introduction date the media will scrutinize it more and if there is anything untoward there it will all come out then.

Hopefully, then again it appears that the politicians, 'consultants' and apologists involved in the poctcode debacle have necks like a jockeys bo***x and as much moral fiber as a glass of water. Smarmy lowlife imho.

Jack180570

ben101 wrote: »

I think you have a point,its just not news at the moment.As it comes nearer to the introduction date the media will scrutinize it more and if there is anything untoward there it will all come out then.

Hopefully, then again it appears that the politicians, 'consultants' and apologists involved in the poctcode debacle have necks like a jockeys bo***x and as much moral fiber as a glass of water. Smarmy lowlife imho.