National Postcodes to be introduced

recedite

ardmacha wrote: »

The obvious solution is for NI to adopt this new approach to postcodes, which gets around disputes about townlands and the like. They should at least make sure that there is some space for the 6 counties in the scheme, even if this is not implemented at present.

The bad news is that the first part of the "postcode" is taken from the name of the town. So if NI adopted the system, there could be a fight in Derry/Londonderry over whether to use DY or LY. I suppose DLY might be acceptable to all though.

recedite

recedite wrote: »

The bad news is that the first part of the "postcode" is taken from the name of the town. So if NI adopted the system, there could be a fight in Derry/Londonderry over whether to use DY or LY. I suppose DLY might be acceptable to all though.

That's why BT was adopted for the whole province in the first place.

SpaceTime

Deleted User wrote: »

That's why BT was adopted for the whole province in the first place.

If they had to, they'd definitely pick Foyle or something. BBC carefully skirted that with BBC Radio Foyle.

recedite

What's the Irish for Foyle? They were lucky with BT in that it was the "capital" and the Anglicized version is almost the same as the Irish version, making it universally acceptable, so they just stuck with that designation for everywhere in NI.

Elmo

Badly done as usual by the civil service. Lets face it we all have a Property ID from the LPT (10 digits), and then An Post and OSi use another code. Though I suppose that no one in the DCENR thought of working with Revenue, Dept of Local Government, An Post etc etc etc to role out these codes.

What is Capita's role exactly?

Sam Russell

Elmo wrote: »

What is Capita's role exactly?

To transfer public money to private pockets - a UK company running an Irish public service. The new Driving licences are also done this way - UK company running an Irish public service. Likewise Luas - UK company running an Irish public service. Spot a pattern here?

marmurr1916

Sam Russell wrote: »

Likewise Luas - UK company running an Irish public service. Spot a pattern here?

Transdev is a French company.

http://www.luas.ie/about-us.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transdev

marmurr1916

Sam Russell wrote: »

Heaven help the postcode system then, unless they go for completely random letters and numbers.

They won't got for complete randomisation. It's already been publicly announced that the existing Dublin postal districts will form the basis of the new-style postcodes for those areas of Dublin.

For example, the first part of the new-style postcodes in Dublin 4 will become D04 (2nd character is zero).

The first part of the new-style postcode for Dublin 24 will become D24.

I don't know what they're going to do about Dublin 6W, currently the only alpha-numeric postcode in public use for Dublin.

Sam Russell

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Transdev is a French company.

http://www.luas.ie/about-us.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transdev

Connex were chosen to run the Luas, which is a multinational based in France, but with operations in the UK (hence my mistake in thinking they were a UK company although the operating company was Connex UK & Ireland Ltd, I believe) but were part of Veolia which was sold off and is now called Transdev.

My complaint is that non-Irish firms are chosen over Irish firm, and private firms are chosen over state/semi-state entities. If we cannot get state employees to work efficiently (which appears to be the case) then we should reform the entities such that they do work efficiently not getting others to do the job whlie retaining the moribund state entity. Currently those entities hive off the good bits and employ consultants (at great expense) to help them select the best bits.

Del2005

recedite wrote: »

The bad news is that the first part of the "postcode" is taken from the name of the town. So if NI adopted the system, there could be a fight in Derry/Londonderry over whether to use DY or LY. I suppose DLY might be acceptable to all though.

Just wait till the Gaelgoir's get going down here. We'll end up with 2 postcodes, one with the English name and the other with the Irish name.

Sam Russell wrote: »

My complaint is that non-Irish firms are chosen over Irish firm, and private firms are chosen over state/semi-state entities. If we cannot get state employees to work efficiently (which appears to be the case) then we should reform the entities such that they do work efficiently not getting others to do the job whlie retaining the moribund state entity. Currently those entities hive off the good bits and employ consultants (at great expense) to help them select the best bits.

There are all put out to tender, if Irish companies can't over the best deal then the government can't go with them. We've enough deals done without proper over site at least this was an open tender. There are plenty of Irish firms completing large tenders in other EU countries.

SpaceTime

It does very much cut both ways. There are an awful lot of Irish firms working on public contracts elsewhere in Europe.
You'd be quite surprised at how many.

Elmo

SpaceTime wrote: »

It does very much cut both ways. There are an awful lot of Irish firms working on public contracts elsewhere in Europe.
You'd be quite surprised at how many.

You may as well give us a few examples. I am sure there are plenty TBH.

My issue is not really with private companies getting public contracts (though I see issues with Drivers licences and if it were to happen to social services).

But why did all of this take so long. An Post already have a set of numbers in place, OSi have a set of numbers in place, The LPT have a 10 digit number in place unique to all houses and apartments.

A 10 year contract for what? We issue the post codes for each area send them to each house, and then what. Continue to issue new post codes for new properties? Shouldn't that be issued at planning stage? by the local authority?

The joke is no long how many civil servants does it take to screw in a light bulb.

How many test light bulbs are required before a civil servant should ask a consultant as to which light bulb and who should screw the light bulb in?

Trick of the Tail

> The LPT have a 10 digit number in place

A 10-digit number can be very easily converted into a 5-character alphanumeric code, which would be perfect for a postcode.

But SO many people, including people on here, are missing the point that we don't NEED a postcode. The only people who need a postcode is the postal service, and they already have one.

We NEED a location code.

And that is NOT what the new codes supposedly being introduced soon are going to be.

irishgeo

Trick of the Tail wrote: »

> The LPT have a 10 digit number in place

A 10-digit number can be very easily converted into a 5-character alphanumeric code, which would be perfect for a postcode.

But SO many people, including people on here, are missing the point that we don't NEED a postcode. The only people who need a postcode is the postal service, and they already have one.

We NEED a location code.

And that is NOT what the new codes supposedly being introduced soon are going to be.

If it's going to be unique to each property it is a location code. It's going to give an exact location for your house/business. Everyone will be able to find your house. Fireman postman courier man if they sign up to use it.

Trick of the Tail

It's not, if it doesn't allow ANY location to be coded.

Which it doesn't.

irishgeo

Trick of the Tail wrote: »

It's not, if it doesn't allow ANY location to be coded.

Which it doesn't.

Why do you need any location coded?

Trick of the Tail

I might be at my cowshed, a mile from my house, and like a delivery there.

I might decide to build a house on a plot of land and want the esb to install a temp supply.

I might come across a man drowning and want to be able to give the emergency services an accurate location.

I might want to complain about a planning infarction at a cellphone mast.

etc

POSTcodes are just for post. And An Post don't need postcodes, they have said. So if we're going to introduce anything, it should do more than a postcode.

Or, smite me, I might think its solely so the government can identify our dwellings for ease of taxation or something.

Elmo

@Sam Russell what did you think dcenr's "Saorview" campaign
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/media-and-marketing/cracking-the-numbers-code-1.1672205

Capita are getting 25m for this plus another contract for postcodes in the dept!

Sam Russell

Elmo wrote: »

@Sam Russell what did you think dcenr's "Saorview" campaign
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/media-and-marketing/cracking-the-numbers-code-1.1672205

Capita are getting 25m for this plus another contract for postcodes in the dept!

They tried to explain to people what Saorview was and put together an expensive advertising campaign to cover this. When the speed limits were changed to Km/hr, there was no campagn, they just did it. No difficulty was experienced by anyone.

I think the Saorview campaign was completely unnecessary as it would have been more appropriate to use the affected channels (the analogue ones) to carry the message that those channels would be discontinued. After three months from the launch of Saorview (26th May 2010), I would have reduced the picture size by 10% and carried a message ontop and bottom saying 'This channell is due to close, get Saorview'. Each further month, reduce the picture again. The target audience would get the message very quickly at nearly no cost. Very few would still be watching the analogue service when it was down to a postage stamp.:)

No need to advertise at all, just mention Saorview on every appropriate radio and TV programme every chance they get. Also, they should have required the TV sales to point out the exact status of all TVs as to their suitability re Saorview as soon as the standard was agreed.

If I were running a 'Post-code' campaign, I would do it by post initially. Send every address a notification of their possible code (assuming the design has progressed) and then their actual code. For example, I live in D4, so my possible code would be D04 xxxx. when the actual postcode is known, I would get a leaflet with my postcode on it D04 AB1R (for example) and a sticker for my fridge. Every government department, and all major mailings would be forced/encouraged to use those codes from as early as is possible. After a period (say six months) An Post will stick a label on letters that do not carry the post code advising the recipent to please use the post code.

A short TV campaign to coincide with the actual postcode mailing would then complete the information required to implement it. Simples.

I could devise a postcode system for an awful lot less. The design problem is trivial. There are a number of databases, maintained by state operations that have complete or nearly complete databases of every house/building in the state. Some of those databases must contain location information of some sort. Combining them and adding location information is an exercise but after that ......

Leonard Shelby

Sam Russell wrote: »

If I were running a 'Post-code' campaign, I would do it by post initially. Send every address a notification of their possible code (assuming the design has progressed) and then their actual code. For example, I live in D4, so my possible code would be D04 xxxx. when the actual postcode is known, I would get a leaflet with my postcode on it D04 AB1R (for example) and a sticker for my fridge. Every government department, and all major mailings would be forced/encouraged to use those codes from as early as is possible. After a period (say six months) An Post will stick a label on letters that do not carry the post code advising the recipent to please use the post code.

A short TV campaign to coincide with the actual postcode mailing would then complete the information required to implement it. Simples.

I could devise a postcode system for an awful lot less. The design problem is trivial. There are a number of databases, maintained by state operations that have complete or nearly complete databases of every house/building in the state. Some of those databases must contain location information of some sort. Combining them and adding location information is an exercise but after that ......

Too Simples. That won't work. You need a solution that will work for rural addresses. Nope , government databases don't contain location. You've obviously never worked on a Single View of Customer project if you think combining databases is easy.

Sam Russell

Leonard Shelby wrote: »

Too Simples. That won't work. You need a solution that will work for rural addresses. Nope , government databases don't contain location. You've obviously never worked on a Single View of Customer project if you think combining databases is easy.

An Post have one that does.

I was answer Elmo's post to give my opinion on the Saorview advertising campaign which I think/thought was an expensive waste of time.

For the post-code exercise, the databases I had in mind were : ESB meter locations; BG meter locations; An Post geographic data base; Revenue address list; Revenue poperty tax data base; Local Authority databases; and probably a few more I'm not aware of and have not heard of. Access to Eircom's database of telephone locations might help as well. Not sure about data protection, but we are only talking about addresses here, not who lives there or anything private.

Clearly there is a problem with rural addresses, that is why we have non-unique addresses in the first place. It is not a trivial project, but it is not overly complicated either.

Elmo

Sam Russell wrote: »

An Post have one that does.

I was answer Elmo's post to give my opinion on the Saorview advertising campaign which I think/thought was an expensive waste of time.

For the post-code exercise, the databases I had in mind were : ESB meter locations; BG meter locations; An Post geographic data base; Revenue address list; Revenue poperty tax data base; Local Authority databases; and probably a few more I'm not aware of and have not heard of. Access to Eircom's database of telephone locations might help as well. Not sure about data protection, but we are only talking about addresses here, not who lives there or anything private.

Clearly there is a problem with rural addresses, that is why we have non-unique addresses in the first place. It is not a trivial project, but it is not overly complicated either.

Would the unique 10 digital Property ID that every dwelling in Ireland gets from Revenue for the LPT help?

Leonard Shelby

Sam Russell wrote: »

An Post have one that does.

I was answer Elmo's post to give my opinion on the Saorview advertising campaign which I think/thought was an expensive waste of time.

For the post-code exercise, the databases I had in mind were : ESB meter locations; BG meter locations; An Post geographic data base; Revenue address list; Revenue poperty tax data base; Local Authority databases; and probably a few more I'm not aware of and have not heard of. Access to Eircom's database of telephone locations might help as well. Not sure about data protection, but we are only talking about addresses here, not who lives there or anything private.

Clearly there is a problem with rural addresses, that is why we have non-unique addresses in the first place. It is not a trivial project, but it is not overly complicated either.

No location information available for Eircom, ESB, Bord Gais, Revenue, etc. None of these will link together for rural addresses. You still haven't put forward a workable solution.

Leonard Shelby

Elmo wrote: »

Would the unique 10 digital Property ID that every dwelling in Ireland gets from Revenue for the LPT help?

No

Elmo

Leonard Shelby wrote: »

No

Why not? 3 dept worked on them dcenr, environment and revenue, surely they would just randomly select unique 10 digit numbers.

Curly Judge

Leonard Shelby wrote: »

No location information available for Eircom, ESB, Bord Gais, Revenue, etc. None of these will link together for rural addresses. You still haven't put forward a workable solution.

And neither have your lot!

Elmo

Leonard Shelby wrote: »

No location information available for Eircom, ESB, Bord Gais, Revenue, etc. None of these will link together for rural addresses. You still haven't put forward a workable solution.

Original Phone numbers had locations

e.g.

In Dublin

353 Ireland
01 Dublin
845 Malahide
846 Portmarnock
839 Baldoyle
etc

If you have caller Id you can pretty much tell the town that the caller was calling from a landline. I know it has change a good bit in the mean time. I think 841 was introduced and new numbers given to non-Eircom lines such as Cable from UPC.

Sam Russell

Leonard Shelby wrote: »

No location information available for Eircom, ESB, Bord Gais, Revenue, etc. None of these will link together for rural addresses. You still haven't put forward a workable solution.

I was not asked to put forward a workable solution to post codes. I was merely giving my opinion on the dismal Saorview campaign for digital TV, and by extension, my opinion on the way to publicise the post code system. As part of that, I was giving an opinion on the route to a post code system. The lack of rural addresses is a significant problem, but existing utilities appear to be able to work.

Curly Judge

Sam Russell wrote: »

I was not asked to put forward a workable solution to post codes. I was merely giving my opinion on the dismal Saorview campaign for digital TV, and by extension, my opinion on the way to publicise the post code system. As part of that, I was giving an opinion on the route to a post code system. The lack of rural addresses is a significant problem, but existing utilities appear to be able to work.

ESB, BGE etc do not use their property ID to find properties - just to help with billing. When ESB want to find a property or other asset they have to extract grid coordinates from their database and try load them to satnavs - with several layers of complication in doing that!

Unfortunately Leonard Shelby's gang are taking the same approach except they will require the database loaded onto navigation devices (at great cost to the user to have and keep uptodate) No lessons have been learned, no advantage taken of modern techniques but then they are only interested in sending out bills anyhow - finding places is not a priority in spite of the press releases - if it was they would not be implementing the complications of the current approach!

Even FG politicians are now questioning Capita and Capita's plan in the Dail http://www.politics.ie/forum/current...tcodes-88.html
- it would appear that this plan is going to have difficulty getting to market - already "early 2015" is reworded to 2015...!

SpaceTime

Elmo wrote: »

Original Phone numbers had locations

e.g.

In Dublin

353 Ireland
01 Dublin
845 Malahide
846 Portmarnock
839 Baldoyle
etc

If you have caller Id you can pretty much tell the town that the caller was calling from a landline. I know it has change a good bit in the mean time. I think 841 was introduced and new numbers given to non-Eircom lines such as Cable from UPC.

You could do but those numbers could well be meaningless in 15 years. They're already meaningless due to new allocation.

Numbers were structured like that because the old telephone network essentially had no intelligence so the routing was basically in the number structure.

There is no longer any reason to have such a complicated system.