National Postcodes to be introduced

garydubh

As published the RegEx was significantly incorrect and misleading and the publisher was advised so before publishing.

A Loc8 Code has inherent elements which make it suitable for safety critical applications. These cannot be identified by just looking at the syntax and bullishly publishing an unverified syntax for identifying a Loc8 Code is foolhardy and if used could seriously undermine safe use by safety critical applications.

A Loc8 Code is not a 1950's type Post Code - Loc8 is a new Location & Navigation technology for a new era !

SPDUB

garydubh wrote: »

As published the RegEx was significantly incorrect and misleading and the publisher was advised so before publishing.

A Loc8 Code has inherent elements which make it suitable for safety critical applications. These cannot be identified by just looking at the syntax and bullishly publishing an unverified syntax for identifying a Loc8 Code is foolhardy and if used could seriously undermine safe use by safety critical applications.

A Loc8 Code is not a 1950's type Post Code - Loc8 is a new Location & Navigation technology for a new era !

It seems like we need the mods here to tell us on what grounds they deleted ACProctor's other posting since if it was wrong how does his claim about what was said to him tally with Garydubh

ACProctor wrote: »

I just had a very heated conversation with the loc8 people because I wanted a regex string that described the pattern their codes make. I was greated with veiled threats of legal action and told it was a breach of copyright which is rather silly for a single piece of text like this. I went ahead and produced one but when I published it on these boards, a complaint was made and the post was pulled.

Amtmann

SPDUB wrote: »

It seems like we need the mods here to tell us on what grounds they deleted ACProctor's other posting since if it was wrong how does his claim about what was said to him tally with Garydubh

I'm not sure what you're talking about, but no moderator has deleted any post on this thread.

ACProctor

garydubh wrote: »

As published the RegEx was significantly incorrect and misleading and the publisher was advised so before publishing.

A Loc8 Code has inherent elements which make it suitable for safety critical applications. These cannot be identified by just looking at the syntax and bullishly publishing an unverified syntax for identifying a Loc8 Code is foolhardy and if used could seriously undermine safe use by safety critical applications.

A Loc8 Code is not a 1950's type Post Code - Loc8 is a new Location & Navigation technology for a new era !

The regex was totally accurate in representing the "pattern" a loc8 code makes.

If you're parsing an address where such a code may or may not be present, the software needs that pattern. Anyone using a pattern match like this would be aware that this is purely to *recognise* a code and not to validate it.

Any expectation that such software should call on some external licensed service in this situation is naive as far as successful software goes.

Instead of veiled threats of legal action Gary, maybe you'd like to explain how software is expected to solve this very specific case of detecting whether a loc8 is present or not.

Amtmann

Actually, I'm going to call a halt to this very particular line of discussion, garydubh and ACProctor.

This thread has veered off-topic: it is primarily about the postcode system about to be introduced by the government.

ACProctor

Furet wrote: »

I'm not sure what you're talking about, but no moderator has deleted any post on this thread.

It was a different thread Furet

ACProctor

Furet wrote: »

Actually, I'm going to call a halt to this very particular line of discussion, garydubh and ACProctor.

This thread has veered off-topic: it is primarily about the postcode system about to be introduced by the government.

This is true, although, to be fair, the issue will affect the one adopted by the goverment too. There are very specialised software products that have to be able to recognise whether any particular item in an address is a code or not

GoCoder

Meanwhile..... getting back on topic.

One of the issues the Dept of Comms has to consider is whether they want to have a code that is designed primarily for postal delivery and some area analysis, and has some added functionality to give precision to particular elements OR are they interested in having a more dynamic code such as GO Code or Loc8 which are digital location codes as defined by Garydubh above?

The public tender when it emerges could either seek only to have implementation of the ABC 123 design, or it could also provide for tenderers submitting an alternative design.

Which would people want in terms of design approach? A Location Code design or traditional Post Code design? And of course, there may be other designs out there that people may be aware of, so am not excluding those from consideration.

ACProctor

GoCoder wrote: »

Meanwhile..... getting back on topic.

One of the issues the Dept of Comms has to consider is whether they want to have a code that is designed primarily for postal delivery and some area analysis, and has some added functionality to give precision to particular elements OR are they interested in having a more dynamic code such as GO Code or Loc8 which are digital location codes as defined by Garydubh above?

The public tender when it emerges could either seek only to have implementation of the ABC 123 design, or it could also provide for tenderers submitting an alternative design.

Which would people want in terms of design approach? A Location Code design or traditional Post Code design? And of course, there may be other designs out there that people may be aware of, so am not excluding those from consideration.

I'm not really clear what additional details a pure postal code would require over a digital location code.

In principle, it should be possible to devise a single digital scheme that would apply in many countries. If the internal encoding used longitude and latitude in a similar manner to HHCODEs used in databases then the resulting location codes may even support some basic "vicinity" type queries where a simple difference calculation would yield something proportional to the geographic separation.

GoCoder

ACProctor wrote: »

I'm not really clear what additional details a pure postal code would require over a digital location code.

In principle, it should be possible to devise a single digital scheme that would apply in many countries. If the internal encoding used longitude and latitude in a similar manner to HHCODEs used in databases then the resulting location codes may even support some basic "vicinity" type queries where a simple difference calculation would yield something proportional to the geographic separation.

Hmm.. the key phrase is "in principle". Does the current code design promoted by the Dept have the above qualities you talk about?

In your view, will a cluster-based code - identifying 10-20 properties depending on whether its urban or rural location according to the Dept - have sufficient functionality or will it be limited by the size of the polygon it defines i.e. number of buildings?

Can you give an example to illustrate what you're talking about re HHCodes and the use of a difference calculation to give something "proportional to the geographic separation"? In plain English?

ACProctor

GoCoder wrote: »

Hmm.. the key phrase is "in principle". Does the current code design promoted by the Dept have the above qualities you talk about?

In your view, will a cluster-based code - identifying 10-20 properties depending on whether its urban or rural location according to the Dept - have sufficient functionality or will it be limited by the size of the polygon it defines i.e. number of buildings?

Can you give an example to illustrate what you're talking about re HHCodes and the use of a difference calculation to give something "proportional to the geographic separation"? In plain English?

Hi GoCoder.

I have no knowledge of the internal formats of either loc8 or GO codes. It was really just an observation based on my previous experience in other IT fields.

Having thought about the postal code versus digital code a little, I assume a pure postal code would also need to identify a sorting/distribution office somewhere rather than just a point on a map. I would understand if a "vicinity" query cannot provide exactly the same functionality.

HHCODE is a clever way of unwinding the bits in one or more coordinates, and then clustering them together to make a single key that can be interrogated in a database. For example, if you had X and Y coordinates that each had just 3 computer bits: [x0, x1, x2], and [y0, y1, y2] (where x0 & y0 are the most significant), then the composite might be formed as [x0, y0, x1, y1, x2, y2].

There are 2 main advantages here. 1) It means that a database query only has to interrogate a single key rather than one for each coordinate - thus making it a lot more efficient, and 2) when the keys are sorted, it effectively groups neighbouring locations. That is, if 2 points A & B are close together - in any direction - then their composite keys will be numerically close together. This means a single database query can easily select all stored points which are within a given range of a specified point (i.e. a "vicinity" query).

Such databases can easily handle 2 coordinates, or 3 (as when including elevation), or even include time (as in spatio-temporal databases).

Hence, in principle (ignoring political and commercial barriers), it would be possible to devise a global location code that had similar characteristics. It doesn't matter whether it was numeric or alphanumeric (although alphanumeric would result in a shorter code), as long as the format was 'open' then a simple calculation could yield the key mentioned above. Also, if you had an arbitrary list of such codes then it would be very easy to test which ones are close together on a map, or close to some fixed point of reference such as a sorting office or your current location.

GoCoder

ACProctor wrote: »

Hi GoCoder.

I have no knowledge of the internal formats of either loc8 or GO codes. It was really just an observation based on my previous experience in other IT fields.

Having thought about the postal code versus digital code a little, I assume a pure postal code would also need to identify a sorting/distribution office somewhere rather than just a point on a map. I would understand if a "vicinity" query cannot provide exactly the same functionality.

HHCODE is a clever way of unwinding the bits in one or more coordinates, and then clustering them together to make a single key that can be interrogated in a database. For example, if you had X and Y coordinates that each had just 3 computer bits: [x0, x1, x2], and [y0, y1, y2] (where x0 & y0 are the most significant), then the composite might be formed as [x0, y0, x1, y1, x2, y2].

There are 2 main advantages here. 1) It means that a database query only has to interrogate a single key rather than one for each coordinate - thus making it a lot more efficient, and 2) when the keys are sorted, it effectively groups neighbouring locations. That is, if 2 points A & B are close together - in any direction - then their composite keys will be numerically close together. This means a single database query can easily select all stored points which are within a given range of a specified point (i.e. a "vicinity" query).

Such databases can easily handle 2 coordinates, or 3 (as when including elevation), or even include time (as in spatio-temporal databases).

Hence, in principle (ignoring political and commercial barriers), it would be possible to devise a global location code that had similar characteristics. It doesn't matter whether it was numeric or alphanumeric (although alphanumeric would result in a shorter code), as long as the format was 'open' then a simple calculation could yield the key mentioned above. Also, if you had an arbitrary list of such codes then it would be very easy to test which ones are close together on a map, or close to some fixed point of reference such as a sorting office or your current location.

Thanks for that. Should we expect to see the Proctor Code emerge soon?

ACProctor

GoCoder wrote: »

Thanks for that. Should we expect to see the Proctor Code emerge soon?

No thanks GoCoder - far too many politics of one sort or another for me. Even if I could provide some valuable, and objective, technical input, that's not what Ireland needs right now.

The whole postal code subject should have been decided upon years ago.

I only got into this subject because I tried to offer my help to someone :-(

P.S. if anyone is interested, my old regex post has now been resurrected

Trick of the Tail

I congratulate Loc8 and GoCode for doing this (I prefer GoCode as its shorter) but - at risk of asking a stupid question - why couldn't we just use the National Grid Reference as post codes?

The 6-digit version would suffice usually but 8 digits could be used for more accurace.

Andy.

alinton

alinton wrote: »

I congratulate Loc8 and GoCode for doing this (I prefer GoCode as its shorter) but - at risk of asking a stupid question - why couldn't we just use the National Grid Reference as post codes?

The 6-digit version would suffice usually but 8 digits could be used for more accurace.

Andy.

Copyright?

GoCoder

Deleted User wrote: »

Copyright?

You might need to expand on that.

Trick of the Tail

How is a national grid reference copyrighted?

A.

GoCoder

GoCoder wrote: »

You might need to expand on that.

It's more of a query, as far as I know it's illegal due to copyright law to copy an OS map.
So therefore any system that uses OS co-ordinates would need permission from the OSI.

Trick of the Tail

Who are funded by the govt, who could tell them to give permission.

A.

ardmacha

So therefore any system that uses OS co-ordinates would need permission from the OSI.

Telephone numbers might be issued by Ericom or Comreg but you can still quote yours in your letterhead.

SOmething like the coujnty code and the significant digits of the grid
MH 345 567. You could leave out the first digit except for counties (Cork??) more than 100 Km in size.

From the OSI website http://www.osi.ie/en/alist/terms-and-conditions.aspx

8. INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY
8.1 All Intellectual Property in and/or relating to each Product and the data and information contained therein (which, for the avoidance of doubt, includes all Intellectual Property in the
Datasets and Third Party Data used in the generation of any Environmental Report) remains the exclusive property of OSi/Government of Ireland and/or its Third Party licensors and nothing in these Conditions or any Product purports to transfer, assign, or grant any rights to you in respect of such Intellectual Property.
8.2 You are permitted to use any Product purchased by you on this website for your personal and private use only. You are permitted to make (or print, in the case of any Products that is delivered by email or that are downloaded directly from the website) three (3) hard copies of any Product purchased by you for such personal and private use. You are not permitted to use any Product in connection with any business or for any commercial purposes whatsoever without the prior written agreement of OSi.
8.3 Except as explicitly permitted in these Conditions, you are not allowed to copy, reproduce, make available, distribute, re-sell, republish, reverse engineer, download, display or otherwise use or deal in any Product without the prior written permission of OSi.

My understanding of this says that using co-ordinates as a post code to could be considered a commercial use.

Anyone know for sure?

GoCoder

Deleted User wrote: »

From the OSI website http://www.osi.ie/en/alist/terms-and-conditions.aspx

My understanding of this says that using co-ordinates as a post code to could be considered a commercial use.

Anyone know for sure?

Depends which co-ordinates you're talking about. If they're OS co-ordinates, that's most likely.

OSI do not "partner" with companies per se. They are not a "partner" in any location code. They provide a mapping service such as Map Genie at a commercial charge - and provide it on the same basis to anyone, within their terms and conditions.

Carawaystick

The national grid could be no more copyrighted than the latitude and longitude of a location.

the national grid can be described as" a 500x500km grid comprised of 25 100x100km lettered grids with each lettered grid having a number associated with the distance from the bottom left of the grid. and some accounting for the non-flatness issue"

my description could be copyrighted, as could the os's description, but any implementation done is not copyright.

Obviously the OS are gonna allege that you can't use stuff that'd loose them revenue without paying them, it's like any business trying to maximise it's revenue.

GoCoder

Carawaystick wrote: »

The national grid could be no more copyrighted than the latitude and longitude of a location.

the national grid can be described as" a 500x500km grid comprised of 25 100x100km lettered grids with each lettered grid having a number associated with the distance from the bottom left of the grid. and some accounting for the non-flatness issue"

my description could be copyrighted, as could the os's description, but any implementation done is not copyright.

Obviously the OS are gonna allege that you can't use stuff that'd loose them revenue without paying them, it's like any business trying to maximise it's revenue.

And when you can do this without it, why bother using it?

Carawaystick

GoCoder wrote: »

And when you can do this without it, why bother using it?

You mean apart from needing a clear view of the sky; an apple computer; battery power;having to register to search for more than a small number of locations, closed software; and no description of how the go code operates, unlike the description of the grid reference printed on the bottom of OS and other maps.

I just checked your site, the directions given from LTHP8JL are totally incorrect.

GoCoder

Carawaystick wrote: »

You mean apart from needing a clear view of the sky; an apple computer; battery power;having to register to search for more than a small number of locations, closed software; and no description of how the go code operates, unlike the description of the grid reference printed on the bottom of OS and other maps.

I just checked your site, the directions given from LTHP8JL are totally incorrect.

I'm sorry to hear that, Carawaystick.

I should let you know that it is an app for the iPhone, so it would need an iPhone, not an Apple computer to run it. To download it onto an iPhone, you can use iTunes on any PC or Mac or straight from the App Store on the iPhone.

The GPS will work indoors quite well, it's a good one.

Most mobiles do work on battery power, that's true. But you can plug it in to the mains.

You're right - the register to search on the site is a limit and a pain in the ass. Our new website will be up shortly and it won't have any limits. And it will have a new, faster search facility.

Closed software? You'll have to explain that one.

No description of how the GO Code operates? Well I'm not sure how much or what kind of detail you're looking for, but you'll find a partial description here. If you're looking for a more technical description, what do you want to know and I'll see if I can help?

The "directions given from LTH P8JL are totally incorrect"? You didn't say what your destination was, however, the GO Code you provided is in the Lamberton estate near Arklow Bypass. The routing is provided by Google Maps, not by us. It would appear that the estate is relatively new, and so may not have been mapped yet by them. It looks like you're on a cul-de-sac, but since I don't know where you want to go, it's a bit difficult. Maybe drive onto Woodbrook, and work it out from there?

Hope that helps.

yuloni

This post has been deleted.

GoCoder

Condi wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

On the website, we're currently using Google Maps. OSI is an option for us to use as well. On the apps it's a combination of Google or on-phone maps - Nokia, etc. And of course the mapping in any satnav software that you've got installed.

A "muddy watercolour". Good description.

ACProctor

GoCoder wrote: »

Depends which co-ordinates you're talking about. If they're OS co-ordinates, that's most likely.

OSI do not "partner" with companies per se. They are not a "partner" in any location code. They provide a mapping service such as Map Genie at a commercial charge - and provide it on the same basis to anyone, within their terms and conditions.

This may be a non-issue if you consider that "relative coordinates" can be encoded more efficiently than "absolute coordinates". What I mean by that is that if you pick some fixed reference point within the bounds of the country, and then represent all coordinates as offsets from this origin then there are two advantages: 1) the resulting relative coordinates are agnostic about the absolute units, and are just as applicable to latitude/longitude as to the national grid (it all depends what value you add to them), and 2) the relative coordinates are shorter and so will be encoded as a shorter code.

blackwarrior

alinton wrote: »

I congratulate Loc8 and GoCode for doing this (I prefer GoCode as its shorter) but - at risk of asking a stupid question - why couldn't we just use the National Grid Reference as post codes?


Andy.

I also say well done to Loc8 and GoCode.

But my views on format are:
- Stick to digits only, broken into groups, e.g. NN NNN, etc. Why? Because it's simpler. We're used to remembering numbers, not mixtures of numbers and letters which are prone to transcription or keying errors (is that a 0 or an O; a 1 or an l?). The British postal code system works, but basically is a grown-up version of the Dublin system with a second part stuck on - you wouldn't have invented it from scratch.

- It should be visually intuitive, i.e. you should be able to locate the general part of the country by looking at it. For example, Dublin could be 01 NNN (or Cork could be). Locations that are close together should have codes that are close together!

- The new systems should NOT be bent around keeping certain Dublin locations looking familiar, e.g. D4 becomes D04NNN, D6 becomes D06NNN, etc. The best system should be used.

- I'm not convinced either that the existing limited vehicle registration system should be used either. For example, how close would location C NNN be to location KY NNN (2 km or 150 km)?

Let's hope for the clearest, simplest and best system. There's no need for compromising or basing it on exisiting bits of systems.