National Postcodes to be introduced

ardmacha

Geographic phone numbers were a good point of reference to help disambiguate addresses, but of course this will not be needed with this new all singing all dancing postcode.

byrnefm

Curly Judge wrote: »

Even FG politicians are now questioning Capita and Capita's plan in the Dail http://www.politics.ie/forum/current...tcodes-88.html
- it would appear that this plan is going to have difficulty getting to market - already "early 2015" is reworded to 2015...!

Hi Curly Judge,

Could you post a snippet of the debate? When I click on the link, I get redirected to the politics.ie main forum page.

Curly Judge

byrnefm wrote: »

Hi Curly Judge,

Could you post a snippet of the debate? When I click on the link, I get redirected to the politics.ie main forum page.

Try these:
http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?...38&s=postcodes
http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2014-02-04a.830&s=postcodes#g837.r

The waffle is far more illuminating than any synopsis I could give you.

a65b2cd

byrnefm wrote: »

Could you post a snippet of the debate? When I click on the link, I get redirected to the politics.ie main forum page.

These were the six PQs:

Pearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
389. To ask the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources the value of the contract awarded to a company (details supplied) for design of a new postcode system. [5196/14]


Pearse Doherty390. To ask the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources the number of companies that competed for the contract to design the new postal code system; and if any bids indicated that they could complete the system in a shorter time period than the winning contract. [5197/14]




Pearse Doherty391. To ask the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources if the contract to design the new postal code system was awarded through an open bidding process; if other bids came in cheaper than a company (details supplied); and under what criteria was that company judged to be the best bidder. [5198/14]




Pearse Doherty392. To ask the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources if he will list the bidders for the contract to design a new postal code. [5199/14]




Pearse Doherty393. To ask the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources the number of staff that will be involved in the company contracted (details supplied) to design the new postal code system. [5200/14]




Pearse Doherty394. To ask the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources if An Post placed a bid for the contract to design the new postal code system; and if so, the reason it was not deemed to have the most experience and ability to deliver the system. [5201/14]

The Cush

byrnefm wrote: »

Could you post a snippet of the debate?

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2014020400065?opendocument#WRO02150

Curly Judge

From what I have been able to glean from various sources, it seems that while the minister did have the power to set the bar for entry to the tender process at 40 million, he did not have the right to exclude tenders from companies which came together with an amalgam of resources amounting to 40 million.
Capita itself seem to be such an amalgam.
So I fail to see why local Irish companies, some of them IDA backed, were refused permission to tender.

One has only to listen to the radio this morning re the shenanigans in the Dept of Justice to see where lack of strict adherence to procedures and fair play can end up.

http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2014-02-18a.1017#g1018.q

When there is a breach in regulations by Dept Of Communications in a tender process it is for the Minister for Communications to sort that out. If is not up to the EU Commssion to redress the issue for the Minister and it is not a defence to suggest that because the commission is not doing anything more than report their adverse findings, then the Minister can just sit back and do nothing!



Regarding not being offered a code for free as part of the procurement process;- this is technically true but only by omitting to say that the company that made the offer publicly on 17th May 2013 in the Irish Indepnedent, when the process was still ongoing, was not part of the process only because of the breach of EU regulations identified in the EU commissions investigation!

It would appear that the Minister [or more likely, his civil servants] is choosing to be less than totally honest in his replies to these questions and the whole credibility of the process and the Capita contract which is the outcome is now undermined!

recedite

Curly Judge wrote: »

http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2014-02-18a.1017#g1018.q

Good questionning there of the Minister by Pearse Doherty. If his information is correct that ...

an Irish small and medium enterprise has had the process examined by the EC Public Procurement Unit in Brussels and are claiming that a judgement has been returned which states that the financial requirements in the procurement process set by the Government breached EU regulations and this and other elements did not conform with the guidelines either in the EU or in Ireland regarding the facilitation of SME participation in procurement processes..

then I wonder are we likely to face any EU sanctions or fines, or is it just more damage to the international reputation of this country?
After all the various bank shenanigans and bailouts, they must be shaking their heads in disbelief over in Brussels.

Doherty is one smart cookie, and he's like a terrier when he smells a rat.
I remember when the last goverment was holding on with a tiny majority, he knew that by refusing to hold by-elections within a reasonable time period, that the majority was artificially maintained. He proved the govt. position was unconstitutional, won the first of the by-elections, and as it was clear the other vacant seats would also be taken by the opposition, the FF/Green position became untenable.

Richard

ardmacha wrote: »

The obvious solution is for NI to adopt this new approach to postcodes, which gets around disputes about townlands and the like. They should at least make sure that there is some space for the 6 counties in the scheme, even if this is not implemented at present.

That isn't an obvious solution. NI has postcodes. Can you imagine the outcry if everyone had to change theirs? And Royal Mail etc had to cope with two different systems.

Don't get me wrong, the proposed Irish system will be better and will certainly have space to accommodate NI of necessary, but that won't happen short of a United Ireland, which isn't exactly likely at the moment.

Leonard Shelby

Pat Rabbitte - My Department received correspondence from the EU Commission during 2012 in relation to the procurement process for the National Postcode System. The case was fully examined by the EU Commission which informed the Department in November 2013 that the matter had been closed by it as no breaches of the procurement framework were found.

That answers that question then, time for the anti-postcode propaganda brigade to drop this particular red herring.

Elmo

Leonard Shelby wrote: »

That answers that question then, time for the anti-postcode propaganda brigade to drop this particular red herring.

If postcode are to be introduced they should be introduced in the most cost efficient manner possible. I have no faith in this department, in particular in relation to the way in which they have been known to spend money in relation to other public information campaigns (DTT, though they happily put forward propaganda to suggest they did a great job on that campaign, one that could have been carried out for nearly nothing).

The minister himself is not immune to being a propaganda machine, I believe he even suggested it was just in the heat of an election.

It is not the heat of an election so lets be critical of the expenditure of Government Departments. In this instance it looks to me like they are over spending, and lets face it this Department has been discussing Postcodes for the last ten years.

recedite

Leonard Shelby wrote: »

That answers that question then, time for the anti-postcode propaganda brigade to drop this particular red herring.

Here's the actual quote from Minister Rabbitte;

My Department received correspondence from the EU Commission during 2012 in relation to the procurement process for the National Postcode System. The case was fully examined by the EU Commission which informed the Department in November 2013 that the matter was closed and no further action would be taken by the Commission.

And here's the source for that quote

Here's the quote you posted, claiming it is from Minister Rabbitte;

My Department received correspondence from the EU Commission during 2012 in relation to the procurement process for the National Postcode System. The case was fully examined by the EU Commission which informed the Department in November 2013 that the matter had been closed by it as no breaches of the procurement framework were found.

Spot the difference?
So what is your source for the new quote? Surely you didn't alter the original quote deliberately, just to deceive people?

Leonard Shelby

recedite wrote: »

Here's the actual quote from Minister Rabbitte;
And here's the source for that quote

Here's the quote you posted, claiming it is from Minister Rabbitte;
Spot the difference?
So what is your source for the new quote? Surely you didn't alter the original quote deliberately, just to deceive people?

Don't shoot the messenger. You're quoting an earlier reply, the one I'm quoting is from written answers Tuesday 4th March from Kildarestreet.com
http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2014-03-04a.668#g670.r

recedite

Fair enough, that's what the Minister is now saying alright. I wonder will Pearse Doherty give up the questioning?

recedite

Pearse Doherty now looking for a copy of the correspondence that says "no breaches of the procurement framework were found"

Pat Rabbitte replies saying "I will consider releasing the material in question directly to the Deputy, subject to..." the agreement of those who were awarded the contract.


And some very good questions from another SF T.D.

1. A postcode system entails converting map coordinates into machine-readable format and it is not a complicated process. Yet, it is reported that this cost €25.6 million for a contract over ten years and in addition there will be a tender for a contract for technical advice and support. This is extraordinary because I would have thought this cost would have been included in €25.6 million. It is reported that it will cost an additional €5 million to integrate the postcode system with other government software systems.
There was also a €40 million turnover requirement for companies tendering for the contract which excluded most, if not all, Irish IT small and medium enterprises from applying. How is this reconciled with the Government's stated aim to support SMEs?

2. "The Minister made no reference to the fact that a person, persons or company involved in analysis, design and advice in regard to the system is now benefitting from the ten-year contract that was awarded."

Rabbitte replies that he knows nothing about any of this stuff, but his Dept. has spent millions of euro and years of time, therefore whatever it is they have (almost) produced, it must be good.
Oh, and these enigmatic words of wisdom;
"We have a leading-edge project here. In a context where every OECD country has already introduced this type of system - most of them 30 years ago"

yuloni

This post has been deleted.

Curly Judge

http://www.globaladdress.org/2014/02/01/new-postcode-system-to-roll-out-across-ireland-in-2015/

Anybody know who this Pigot guy is?

recedite

Curly Judge wrote: »

http://www.globaladdress.org/2014/02/01/new-postcode-system-to-roll-out-across-ireland-in-2015/

Anybody know who this Pigot guy is?

To quote what was said in the Dail, the "person, persons or company involved in analysis, design and advice in regard to the system is now benefitting from the ten-year contract that was awarded"

recedite

Has Pat Rabbitte not released that correspondence he received from the European Commission yet? The one that supposedly says "no breaches of the procurement framework were found"?

yuloni

This post has been deleted.

Carawaystick

Do the proponents of postcodes think they will reduce the time it takes for a letter posted by an Garda Commissioner in D8 to get to the Minister for Justice in D2 in ten days or less.....

Carawaystick

Carawaystick wrote: »

Do the proponents of postcodes think they will reduce the time it takes for a letter posted by an Garda Commissioner in D8 to get to the Minister for Justice in D2 in ten days or less.....

Snail mail (literally)

Sam Russell

Carawaystick wrote: »

Do the proponents of postcodes think they will reduce the time it takes for a letter posted by an Garda Commissioner in D8 to get to the Minister for Justice in D2 in ten days or less.....

It was delivered by courier, not posted.

Delivering a letter by any means does not mean it has reached the addressee, and even if it did, it can be denied. 'No post codes here, nothing to see, move on!'

recedite

Maybe some civil servant lost it down the back of a sofa for a week.
Maybe Pat Rabbittes "no breaches were found" letter from the European Commission has disappeared down the back of the same sofa.
Maybe.

The Cush

Article in today's Irish Times, print edition page 7.

Further details of Ireland's long-awaited postcode system are to be announced by the Minister for Communications next week ahead of the planned launch of the postcodes next year.

Pat Rabbitte will unveil the brand, logo and postcode design at an event next Monday alongside Liam Duggan, business development officer with Capita Ireland, the company licensed to manage the new system.

...

The national postcode system will use a seven-character code in an alpha-numeric format and the system will retain the current Dublin postal districts.

Each address and its code will be stored in a central database which will allow for the geo-coordinates associated with this code to be mapped on a variety of platforms including computer, tablets, smartphones and sat navs.

...

There will be two information campaigns, one aimed at businesses followed by a public information campaign due to get underway in early 2015.

Households and businesses will receive letters containing their individual postcodes in the second quarter of 2015.

The new postcode system is expected to cost €16 million to develop over 2 years, after which it will cost an estimated €1.2 million annually to operate, bringing the total cost of the Capita contract to €25.6 million.

Elmo

The Cush wrote: »

Article in today's Irish Times, print edition page 7.

So why does it need a logo? why does it need a brand? What is the brand? And pics of the logo? How much did the logo and brand cost?

How much does it cost to promote them? V How much does it cost to assign them?

recedite

...Each address and its code will be stored in a central database which will allow for the geo-coordinates associated with this code to be mapped on a variety of platforms including computer, tablets, smartphones and sat navs....

Its not a code then, is it. Its a reference number, which can be used to look up the actual code (being the location co-ordinates stored in the central database) and only if you're lucky enough to be connected to WAP/the internet at the time.

JohnC.

recedite wrote: »

Its not a code then, is it. Its a reference number, which can be used to look up the actual code (being the location co-ordinates stored in the central database)

How is that different from every other postcode? Which postcode is just lat/lon?

and only if you're lucky enough to be connected to WAP/the internet at the time.

Citation needed.

recedite

Ok, basically this is like telling somebody that your address and phone number are on Page XYZ of the 01 telephone directory, instead of just giving them your phone number and address directly.

Its a reference that will lead the person to the actual information, provided they have access to the right phone book. Also the other people listed nearby on the same page do not actually live nearby, they just have a similar surname. That's because the page number is only a reference, not a code.

The postcode design was actually announced an briefing seminars in the last two weeks it will be D12 FF6H the last 4 characters being random so two houses beside each other will have nothing in common in the last 4 characters - random means for them that everyone will be absolutely dependent on the database and to the public random means errors, non intuitive and lack of use.

So, feeding this reference number into a phone with gps, the device will have to look up the (frequently updated) national database each time in order to retrieve the information. This is different to a postcode, or a location code, or grid reference co-ordinates which contain the unchanging location information within the code.

Yet again there are many other contradictions. A tender to select consultants to assist with the postcode is still ongoing - the contract was supposed to be awarded last week but nothing yet. One of the functions of these consultants is to be to oversee the postcode and postcode address database (PAD) design to ensure it is fit for purpose yet they are going to announce the design of the postcode next week without them.

IrlJidel

Irish Postcode system will be called EirCode. website: http://www.eircode.ie

Elmo

IrlJidel wrote: »

Irish Postcode system will be called EirCode. website: http://www.eircode.ie

Wow, that is an impressive logo. Its a point a call if you will. You can see how it will really let people understand fully their postcode.

The arrows pinpoint the centre of the image, as if to pin point to your address. Its colours are vibriant just like the Irish people, while the use of Eir gives a sense of the Irish language with the knowledge that is a code for Ireland :rolleyes: