National Postcodes to be introduced

GoCoder

blackwarrior wrote: »

I also say well done to Loc8 and GoCode.

But my views on format are:
- Stick to digits only, broken into groups, e.g. NN NNN, etc. Why? Because it's simpler. We're used to remembering numbers, not mixtures of numbers and letters which are prone to transcription or keying errors (is that a 0 or an O; a 1 or an l?). The British postal code system works, but basically is a grown-up version of the Dublin system with a second part stuck on - you wouldn't have invented it from scratch.

- It should be visually intuitive, i.e. you should be able to locate the general part of the country by looking at it. For example, Dublin could be 01 NNN (or Cork could be). Locations that are close together should have codes that are close together!

- The new systems should NOT be bent around keeping certain Dublin locations looking familiar, e.g. D4 becomes D04NNN, D6 becomes D06NNN, etc. The best system should be used.

- I'm not convinced either that the existing limited vehicle registration system should be used either. For example, how close would location C NNN be to location KY NNN (2 km or 150 km)?

Let's hope for the clearest, simplest and best system. There's no need for compromising or basing it on exisiting bits of systems.

Fair comment, blackwarrior.

It depends on what system design you use for defining different geographical areas in your code. Using alphanumeric gives you more choices, and greater granularity. You could choose to have certain letters or numbers not be used, like we have done in the GO Code design.

Your refer to potential confusing characters such as 0 and O, 2 and Z, etc - we have taken account of those. We've stuck with the numbers and if a person enters the character instead by mistake e.g. S instead of 5, then the system corrects this automatically. We've also provided for certain code combinations not to be assigned as 'official' GO Codes for buildings, and we've reserved others for specific non-public purposes.

Regarding the comment on visually intuitive, if it would help, I could provide a link to see how the primary character grid looks, similar to the area code map used in phone directories.

Solair

I think the most logical situation would be to just ignore the existing Dublin and Cork City (they do exist, but are rarely used other than for TV license mail outs) postal zones.

E.g. you could have:

1 Main Street
Ballsbridge
Dublin 4
LX12 9998

1 Main Street
Sunday's Well
Cork 1
WX92 X938

I don't think we need to worry too much about trying to incorporate old codes which were nothing more than to aid An Post's manual sorting operations, into new postal codes.

As time goes on, the old codes can naturally fade out of existence. However, 1 or 2 digits after Dublin or Cork won't make even the slightest bit of difference to mail delivery and it will just allow old familiar zones to remain in use.

People can simply leave them out when filling in online forms etc which no longer require them.

I also like the idea that the codes would aid the delivery of mail to addresses where people opt to use Irish language only. It's also handy where townlands are obscure or where local names of places are disputed / spellings are not standardised etc etc

It means that there will be no confusion.

The codes also define a single spot on the ground, they do not define an area i.e. like Dublin 4 or 18 or the ridiculous 6 vs 6W nonsense that goes on. You can't group the codes into areas for snob value as they're literally pointing to a single spot on the ground, not to a group of houses or a specific area.

It will be great to finally rid ourselves of that silly nonsense about postal districts in Dublin in particular.

NFD100

" It will be great to finally rid ourselves of that silly nonsense about postal districts in Dublin in particular. "

Rather you than me! There was a furore when they threatened to extend Dublin 10 or 12. They had to produce a Dublin 6W solution to placate people who were terrified their houses would plummet in value.

No, let people use their existing codes for whatever reason and they can put the new code underneath until they are phased out.

See: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-10825499

Solair

NFD100 wrote: »

" It will be great to finally rid ourselves of that silly nonsense about postal districts in Dublin in particular. "

Rather you than me! There was a furore when they threatened to extend Dublin 10 or 12. They had to produce a Dublin 6W solution to placate people who were terrified their houses would plummet in value.

No, let people use their existing codes for whatever reason and they can put the new code underneath until they are phased out.

See: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-10825499

I've no doubt that Dubliners will cling onto those old postal districts but please don't screw up the national geolocation system by pandering to them.

I'd say ultimately the best solution is to just allow them to keep them.

There was nonsense in London years ago with people renting 071 (inner London) phone numbers & diverting to 081 (outer London areas) !! Snobs are strange!!

garydubh

Solair wrote: »

I've no doubt that Dubliners will cling onto those old postal districts but please don't screw up the national geolocation system by pandering to them.

I'd say ultimately the best solution is to just allow them to keep them.

There was nonsense in London years ago with people renting 071 (inner London) phone numbers & diverting to 081 (outer London areas) !! Snobs are strange!!

Vanity addresses are a big probem for any delivery system (not to metion postal addresses which relate to nearest post sorting town which may be in a different county) - that's why Loc8 Codes are not intended to replace, change or repair an existing address - use whatever address you currently use just optionally add a Loc8 Code to help those unfamiliar with the location to find you. Most importantly Loc8 Codes are directly supported by Garmin themselves - so the most popular SatNav in Ireland can be used to find any location with a Loc8 Code - new Radio add coming shortly: http://audioboo.fm/boos/159750-garmin-loc8-radio-ad-summer-2010

SPDUB

NFD100 wrote: »

" It will be great to finally rid ourselves of that silly nonsense about postal districts in Dublin in particular. "

Rather you than me! There was a furore when they threatened to extend Dublin 10 or 12. They had to produce a Dublin 6W solution to placate people who were terrified their houses would plummet in value.

6W was created because the existing Dublin 6 district was becoming too big for the Dublin 6 office in Rathmines and a new district office was built in Fortfield road

The furore was because the original proposal was to call it Dublin 26 which made it appear it was near to Tallaght ( Dublin 24 ) which people feared would cause their houses to decline in value .

The 6W solution placated those critics and also the critics within the P&T at the time since it maintained the concept of the district numbers getting bigger as they moved from the city centre .

baalthor

There were plans to extend the Dublin numbers further: Blackrock/Dun Laoghaire would have been D28 and the rest of SoCoDu would have been D30. The D6/26 controversy stopped them of course.
Unless you use random assignment, pretty much every post code/phone number system is susceptible to the snob factor; remember Homer strapping explosives to himself when they changed the Springfield area code ? :-D

recedite

I now have a "loc8 code" and a "go code" for my house. I would like to start using one on my address, but which? Is this going to be VHS versus Betamax again?
Either would be better than some lame copy of the 1970s system as used in the UK that our govt seems to want to spend millions on.

Go code addresses seem to be verified using the An Post geodirectory for buildings, although random points can also be inputted, such as a beach.

Loc8 seem to have an interesting system of verification by usage with a rating from "least trusted" to "most trusted".

Both are great in that you can get the code yourself now, instead of waiting for some civil servant to give you a half arsed code years from now.

But IMO the best system would have been to use a 10 digit code of the existing National Grid. This gives accuracy to within 10 metres which is fine. I find it as easy to remember 10 numbers as some random 8 digit alphanumeric mixture. Especially as the first 2 digits of both lat. and long. in the Nat Grid will be common to everyone in your area, making it more intuitive. It can easily be "zoomed out" for marketing or census purposes into areas by lopping off the last digits progressively. Get your free "code" by zooming in on this map here(12 digits gives one metre accuracy; see the code next to "xy" in the black box ) http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,591271,743300,0

GoCoder

recedite wrote: »

I now have a "loc8 code" and a "go code" for my house. I would like to start using one on my address, but which?

Go code addresses seem to be verified using the An Post geodirectory for buildings, although random points can also be inputted, such as a beach.

Loc8 seem to have an interesting system of verification by usage with a rating from "least trusted" to "most trusted".

Both are great in that you can get the code yourself now, instead of waiting for some civil servant to give you a half arsed code years from now.

But IMO the best system would have been to use a 10 digit code of the existing National Grid. This gives accuracy to within 10 metres which is fine. I find it as easy to remember 10 numbers as some random 8 digit alphanumeric mixture. Especially as the first 2 digits of both lat. and long. in the Nat Grid will be common to everyone in your area, making it more intuitive. It can easily be "zoomed out" for marketing or census purposes into areas by lopping off the last digits progressively. Get your free "code" by zooming in on this map here(12 digits gives one metre accuracy; see the code next to "xy" in the black box ) http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,591271,743300,0

Interesting points, Recedite.

Are you saying that a code, say for example, GO:L6G 56L would be more difficult to remember than a 10 digit all-numeric code such as 5912774330?

The first two characters of a GO Code would be common to everyone in the same area, since its design operates on a similar principle to National Grid - the characters are not randomly selected since they're based on a grid design. A design which is based on increasing/decreasing granularity linked to each additional character which is added/lopped off.

Address or POI locations that we have in our database already have a GO Code attached to them - so there's no verification required - except if the owner of a particular address wishes to change its location or amend details in some way - which they do occasionally. We'll have new facilities for that on the new website due out in September along with more POI information on various topics.

The VHS/Betamax comparison has been made before along with comments on what lessons should be learned from it from a marketing perspective. Is it about the best technology solution or which product offers the most perceived benefits to the consumer? Unlike Sony and JVC, maybe combine the best of both to deliver the most effective and attractive solution for business and consumers, perhaps?

Garydubh?

recedite

GoCoder wrote: »

Are you saying that a code, say for example, GO:L6G 56L would be more difficult to remember than a 10 digit all-numeric code such as 5912774330?

First off there should be 7 digits in the go code there; so lets say L6G 561L versus 087 2774330. I'm not sure there is a huge difference. By introducing letters you have eliminated 3 digits. Most people can remember their mobile phone number of 10 digits. The brain does this by recognising and isolating the first 3 digits, so that it can then concentrate on the other 7. As we have established, both the go code and the National Grid are grid/granular based so that the first few digits are regional. So these would become recognisable prefixes after a while, like the phone prefixes.

GoCoder wrote: »

Unlike Sony and JVC, maybe combine the best of both to deliver the most effective and attractive solution for business and consumers, perhaps?

Its a pity the government don't sponsor you both to do this instead of wasting taxpayers money going up some blind alley.

As for GPS sat nav devices, I'm sure some simple freeware or app in the device could translate either Nat Grid coordinates, go code, or loc8 code into a navigible GPS coordinate.

GoCoder

recedite wrote: »

First off there should be 7 digits in the go code there; so lets say L6G 561L versus 087 2774330. I'm not sure there is a huge difference. By introducing letters you have eliminated 3 digits. Most people can remember their mobile phone number of 10 digits. The brain does this by recognising and isolating the first 3 digits, so that it can then concentrate on the other 7. As we have established, both the go code and the National Grid are grid/granular based so that the first few digits are regional. So these would become recognisable prefixes after a while, like the phone prefixes.

Hmmm. Well I'm going home for me tea now.

recedite

OK to be fair, 087 2774330 is a phone format.
The equivalent in Nat Grid would be 0 87 27-7 43 30 where the numbers in bold represent the prefix of a regional area 100km x 100km. Those in italics locate the local area squares of 1km x 1km that are visible on any OSI Discovery series maps (as are for sale in your local bookshop).
I will concede then that your 7 digit code is easier on the brain.
For myself, I already use both GPS and Nat Grid coordinates to locate places so I am biased in the sense that I don't want to have to learn a third system which is only marginally easier to remember. But I admit that the majority have no such hang ups; they just want one system; whichever is the easiest.
The ideal format would be 3 consecutive numbers and 4 consecutive letters or visa versa, with some way of identifying the region in that. When numbers are interspersed with letters it messes with peoples heads.
In that respect the Go code is better than the Loc8 one, so we can compare it to Betamax in all this. However Loc8 seems to be better known, so it is the VHS. The government are pursuing the Cine film option.:D

If the two companies would get together, we might get one good code.
Then people like myself would use it in preference to anything inferior the government might come up with. Once the code gained a certain critical mass of uptake, then as a fait accompli, the gov. version postcode would have to be abandoned.

Empire o de Sun

Is it necessary to have such a complicated system. People have to remember these codes.Many countries just have 4 or 5 digits/letters. And that just narrows it down to a specific suburb, town, area etc.

i don't want a postcode that goes right down to my house/flat, it would be like having another ID number. I have enough of them.

Sponge Bob

What is the relationship between Loc8 and the older PON code system...apart from the fact that they are incompatible

GoCoder

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

Is it necessary to have such a complicated system. People have to remember these codes.Many countries just have 4 or 5 digits/letters. And that just narrows it down to a specific suburb, town, area etc.

i don't want a postcode that goes right down to my house/flat, it would be like having another ID number. I have enough of them.

Well you have the option of using only 4 or 5 characters from a GO Code. For example, GO:L6G 56 would bring you to Sandyford Ind Estate near our office. But for some buildings, especially in isolated areas, using the full 7 characters would be better for more accuracy if someone needed to find their way and was unfamiliar with the territory.

Sponge Bob

I fail to see why we have so many of these geocoding schemes....and that before the Post Office and Ryan start to roll their one(s) out.

And the fact that the PON scheme has disappeared is bloody annoying, that was the Garmin 2008 plan, now discarded

recedite

GoCoder wrote: »

Well you have the option of using only 4 or 5 characters from a GO Code. For example, GO:L6G 56 would bring you to Sandyford Ind Estate near our office. But for some buildings, especially in isolated areas, using the full 7 characters would be better for more accuracy if someone needed to find their way and was unfamiliar with the territory.

I wouldn't bother using the short form because I am fed up with couriers phoning for directions, and if I ever ring an ambulance I want it to arrive before I am dead. But it is very useful to have that option for ID phobic people and for the market research people.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

And the fact that the PON scheme has disappeared is bloody annoying, that was the Garmin 2008 plan, now discarded

Is Loc8 just the commercial name for the "pon code" scheme?

Sponge Bob

Nope, my old PON code is now out in the feckin atlantic and I will not be Getting a Loc8 code

recedite

I hope the poor postman is wearing his oilskins

recedite

GoCoder wrote: »

its design operates on a similar principle to National Grid - the characters are not randomly selected since they're based on a grid design.

Just wondering... Is the grid based on squares or polygons (like a fly's eye)?
I think the market research people were lobbying for polygons because it gives a better cluster shape.

Sponge Bob

recedite wrote: »

I think the market research people were lobbying for polygons because it gives a better cluster shape.

They can interpolate them very easily the dopes , there is a simple formula for converting a 100 x 100 m square to a hex polygon of the same area centred in exactly the same spot. I am sure the direct marketing institute could afford a GIS specialist to work it out.

GoCoder

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Nope, my old PON code is now out in the feckin atlantic and I will not be Getting a Loc8 code

Why not get a GO Code instead!

We don't plan to change our name or the structure/format of our digital location code for Ireland.

Nor do we plan to make it exclusive to one company as Garmin are stating on their UK website - http://www.garmin.com/sites/uk/loc8 "..accurate Loc8 codes for Ireland. Exclusive to Garmin."

GO Codes are designed to work with many satnav routing software brands such as TomTom, Navigon and Co-Pilot. You can even input them into a Garmin device, if you connect it via USB. And depending on the mobile phone you have, it could work on that as well - iPhone has its own GO Code app, with Android, Blackberry, Windows Mobile and Samsung's Bada to follow shortly into their App Stores.

We have a substantial database of addresses and POIs with GO Codes already complete on our website to look-up/search. And people are adding to that all the time. The next database update will be up on our new site in a few weeks.

They've been trialled successfully with a global logistics company in Ireland.

We're now incorporating them into various business address databases who have geo-coordinates attached to them - logistics companies, market research companies, healthcare organisations, tourism info providers, etc.

mackerski

As long as people are rushing to congratulate people on creating a coding system - any coding system's better that none, right? - they should pause for a moment and consider the issue of ownership. The UK postcode has been proprietary since the very beginning, much to the annoyance of anybody looking to use it for anything.

Those of you with an awareness of OpenStreetMap may be aware of my involvement with it. There has been a somewhat related project in the UK for a while now, called Free the Postcode. People record postcodes and their co-ordinates and feed a central database, the intention being to allow free postcode-based geocoding of sufficient quality. This is necessary simply because a commercial body owns the postcode database. To be sure, they own it fair and square and have paid good money to establish and maintain it. But The issue of whether a postcode - something we will all have to have - should be allowed to be locked up like that is one that needs to be carefully considered.

Imagine if the government outsourced street naming and signing to a commercial body, and their revenue model was to charge some users for the right to know what streets were called. Clearly, individuals could use them without charge, but for bulk use or for people wanting to develop navigation systems (or maps...), there would be a licence fee. Pretty wacky, eh?

So all I'm saying is, read the small print before you assume that any commercially-sponsored coding scheme is one that will operate in your interest. The promoters will want to make their money somewhere. Find out where that is and decide whether you're good with it.

GoCoder

mackerski wrote: »

As long as people are rushing to congratulate people on creating a coding system - any coding system's better that none, right? - they should pause for a moment and consider the issue of ownership. The UK postcode has been proprietary since the very beginning, much to the annoyance of anybody looking to use it for anything.

Those of you with an awareness of OpenStreetMap may be aware of my involvement with it. There has been a somewhat related project in the UK for a while now, called Free the Postcode. People record postcodes and their co-ordinates and feed a central database, the intention being to allow free postcode-based geocoding of sufficient quality. This is necessary simply because a commercial body owns the postcode database. To be sure, they own it fair and square and have paid good money to establish and maintain it. But The issue of whether a postcode - something we will all have to have - should be allowed to be locked up like that is one that needs to be carefully considered.

Imagine if the government outsourced street naming and signing to a commercial body, and their revenue model was to charge some users for the right to know what streets were called. Clearly, individuals could use them without charge, but for bulk use or for people wanting to develop navigation systems (or maps...), there would be a licence fee. Pretty wacky, eh?

So all I'm saying is, read the small print before you assume that any commercially-sponsored coding scheme is one that will operate in your interest. The promoters will want to make their money somewhere. Find out where that is and decide whether you're good with it.

Very good point. Commercial companies will want to make money from something they have invested time and money in. No surprises there.

On another forum, I suggested that an open collaboration on designing a Smart Code for a true Smart Economy between various parties, including OSM, is something to be considered, and to see whether there is interest in such a venture and how it would operate into the future. The silence has been instructive.

mackerski

GoCoder wrote: »

Very good point. Commercial companies will want to make money from something they have invested time and money in. No surprises there.

On another forum, I suggested that an open collaboration on designing a Smart Code for a true Smart Economy between various parties, including OSM, is something to be considered, and to see whether there is interest in such a venture and how it would operate into the future. The silence has been instructive.

I personally never saw that post - I'm always cautious of efforts that are likely to be undermined by whatever the government adopts, though. That said, I meant to include in my last post that we have no guarantee that a government approved postcode would not be just as closed as a commercial one, so please don't think I'm trying to be one-sided.

For the record, would you briefly outline what uses of go-codes would require payment?

GoCoder

mackerski wrote: »

I personally never saw that post - I'm always cautious of efforts that are likely to be undermined by whatever the government adopts, though. That said, I meant to include in my last post that we have no guarantee that a government approved postcode would not be just as closed as a commercial one, so please don't think I'm trying to be one-sided.

For the record, would you briefly outline what uses of go-codes would require payment?

I don't think you're being one-sided at all. The Minister is on record saying that the maintaining of a postcode system will cost €2.5m per annum (his estimate), and that will be met by revenues from the market for various (unspecified) services. It's likely that will be derived in part from holding onto the "specific" part of the postcode - that gives precision to a letterbox - and charging for access to that part of the database. This already happens in other countries - sometimes known as the DPS portion - Delivery Point Suffix.

To answer your specific question about payment for GO Codes, we haven't completely decided yet. There was an interesting article recently by one of the Foursquare people about their potential future revenue streams on a similar vein.

GO Code's revenues in Ireland could be linked to advertising around web, apps, etc. They could be purchase/subscription/licence charges for apps/data. They could be linked to additional content data charges if the market demand is there. Charging for bulk-conversion of databases almost certainly for commercial companies. Charities and other NGO-type organisations could get it for free. Individuals usage on web for look-up for free. There'll be a licence tithe to pay to some bodies and those costs will have to be met, as well as the people working for the company.

We also believe there's a likely lifetime to the project in Ireland, where ownership should probably transfer into the public domain after a certain period, assuming business objectives have been met.

But first things, first. People have to like GO Codes, access them easily, and start using them as they need them. That's the first, and most important, task.

blackwarrior

Can I return to the issue of simplicity?

From a situation where I am almost embarassed by our lack of post/location codes, several countries have relatively simple & elegant codes, and these are easy to remember.

USA: WA 98133 (5 digits)
France: Nice 06048 (I'm here right now - about 28 degrees!)
Germany: Four Seasons Hotel Hamburg 20354 (I just picked this randomly)

I like the philosophy, research and work that has gone into GoCode and Loc8, and I support the efforts to ditch the half-hearted attempt made by the government recently. But I would suggest that the addressee is being left out of this.

Electronic devices such as mapping, GPS, and satnav will earnestly consume the most complicated location code, because they are all computers! But, as a punter, I'd like a location code that I can remember easily. Thinks of website addresses - many are intuitive and can be remembered easily if learned. My fear is that this won't apply to GoCode and Loc8.

GoCoder's (I think) comment that the first few digits can be taken is encouraging.

But my experience of part numbering, coding systems and numerical things general in my 30+ years adult experience is that mixing random-looking letters and numbers is not user-friendly.

So, I'm for digital location codes. That's all.

Good debate though.

L1011

blackwarrior wrote: »

USA: WA 98133 (5 digits)

They added an extra 4 digits a long, long time ago.

blackwarrior

MYOB wrote: »

They added an extra 4 digits a long, long time ago.

Yes - but the old 5-digit formats are still in widespread use and accepted.

recedite

GoCoder wrote: »

The Minister is on record saying that the maintaining of a postcode system will cost €2.5m per annum (his estimate), and that will be met by revenues from the market for various (unspecified) services. It's likely that will be derived in part from holding onto the "specific" part of the postcode - that gives precision to a letterbox - and charging for access to that part of the database.

I think the high maintenance costs were due to a perceived need for the database to be constantly updated, whereas a system that is self updating/verified by the users should not be costly, once set up.

More observations on Loc8 V GO Code;
If you use a less precise area code, using only 5 digits, then the map on the GO Code website merely pinpoints a less accurate position.

The map on the Loc8 website indicates a more useful general area square of 100m X 100m. Using only 3 digits shows a square of 3.5 X 3.5 Km.

The eighth (extra) digit on the Loc8 code is a "checker" number. So no wasted journeys for courier drivers due to a sloppy transcription error.

If you key in the GOCode; END WRLD you end up somewhere on the road between Navan and Mullingar. Dublin based company?