National Postcodes to be introduced

recedite

a65b2cd wrote: »

LOC8 is direct, and really wins on being a spatial code, but Eircode will improve the underlying address database.

The database and the code are two different things. If they want to spend €23M upgrading the geodirectory database that is one thing. They can add in various names and GPS co-ordinates etc. and try to keep updating it.
But its not the eircode that is doing that.
If every address had a registered spatial code, the govt. could still maintain a database if they wanted.

a65b2cd wrote: »

Not sure how googling a non-unique address will find it.
Who is arming Ukraine?

That is true, googling won't find a non-unique address, or even all unique addresses.

USA is doing in Ukraine what it did in Georgia. Up till recently funding was mostly disguised in various donor programmes, but going more public now.

SpaceTime wrote: »

The major advantage of Galileo is that it's independent of the US or Russian military but also that it gives better coverage in very far northern regions. Remember that a large chunk of the EU is much further North than the continuous continental US.

Glonass also has a higher concentration of satellites at northern latitudes than GPS, because Russia is also mostly further north than the US.

Sam Russell

This discussion is going round in circles.

We (according to the Government) need a post code system that can locate each premises. This could be met by a two part 'post-code'. The first part to give a location within a 100 metres or so, the second part to give the exact location of the premises (or landmark). What Eircode gives us is a two part code - the first part gives location down to a few kilometres or so, and a random code that identifies the individual premises. The first part of Eicode is one letter followed by two digits, with the sole exception of D6W.

If the first part of the code was four or five digits, this would be simillar to most European postcodes, and would be taken up by SatNavs, and most logistics companies and would go into use quickly, particularly if the code was easily memorable and followed the logic of TelecomE's numbering systems used for the phone system.

The second part could be anything (random, letters or numbers) and would be private, used by officialdom for whatever and not for public use.

The first part requires little or no maitenance, the second one would be maintained in the same way as PPS numbers, probably by Revenue for property tax issues, etc.

I consider the current Eircode a huge mistake on a par with electronic voting and other disasters visited on the nation by gross incompetence and vested interests.

ardmacha

Sam Russell wrote: »

This discussion is going round in circles.

We (according to the Government) need a post code system that can locate each premises. This could be met by a two part 'post-code'. The first part to give a location within a 100 metres or so, the second part to give the exact location of the premises (or landmark). What Eircode gives us is a two part code - the first part gives location down to a few kilometres or so, and a random code that identifies the individual premises. The first part of Eicode is one letter followed by two digits, with the sole exception of D6W.

If the first part of the code was four or five digits, this would be simillar to most European postcodes, and would be taken up by SatNavs, and most logistics companies and would go into use quickly, particularly if the code was easily memorable and followed the logic of TelecomE's numbering systems used for the phone system.

The second part could be anything (random, letters or numbers) and would be private, used by officialdom for whatever and not for public use.

The first part requires little or no maitenance, the second one would be maintained in the same way as PPS numbers, probably by Revenue for property tax issues, etc.

I consider the current Eircode a huge mistake on a par with electronic voting and other disasters visited on the nation by gross incompetence and vested interests.

Spot on. Couldn't agree more.

Impetus

SpaceTime wrote: »

There are actually a system called EGNOS which is an overlay service for enhancing satellite navigation accuracy.

I am aware of EGNOS and have had several GPS devices that use it. (I've been playing with GPS devices since the mid-nineties, and have updated my devices as new ones came to market.) There has been an EGNOS transponder at Cork Airport for about a decade.

You can get accuracy down to a metre or so using all the technologies. Great for auto-landing aircraft in zero visibility along with ILS Cat III.

But no good for finding the Murphy house in Ballyx - unless they have supplied you with a rather long grid reference - which is not very user friendly, and very open to errors, and will be above many people's heads - especially during an emergency.


http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Na...e_EGNOS_system

TheBustedFlush

recedite wrote: »

The database and the code are two different things. If they want to spend €23M upgrading the geodirectory database that is one thing. They can add in various names and GPS co-ordinates etc. and try to keep updating it.
But its not the eircode that is doing that.
If every address had a registered spatial code, the govt. could still maintain a database if they wanted.

Every address could have a registered spatial code. the work on building the database with addresses and their many variants is ongoing, as well as updating government records with the same common data. Then they're got to do the public marketing in the new year and send eircodes out to everyone in springtime.

recedite

Impetus wrote: »

But no good for finding the Murphy house in Ballyx - unless they have supplied you with a rather long grid reference - which is not very user friendly, and very open to errors, and will be above many people's heads - especially during an emergency.

Hence the reason a lot of people are using loc8 code, which is a simplified version with a built-in checker digit, and can also be shortened further by lopping off a few digits to give a rough "area" location without giving your exact location.

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

Every address will have a registered spatial code.

Really? I think that will be unlawful on privacy/personal data protection grounds, unless they make the database secret, in which case it becomes less useful as a piece of "national infastructure". In any case the spatial code would not be the eircode. it would have to go into the database as an additional piece of information and then be linked back to the eircode.
No wonder the costs to the taxpayer are mounting up!

SpaceTime

The sad reality of it is that most people will just think : YAY! No longer am I going to be left in that awkward position on the phone when I'm talking to Sharon in that call centre in Slough when she asks me for the post code and I have to explain .. "well actually Sharon, funny story that: we don't have any." "Yes, really.. you just need to write down the 8 lines of my address and it'll get here!"

Whether the code actually works or not will largely escape most of the Irish media and population.

TheBustedFlush

recedite wrote: »

the reason a small number of people use location codes.
Really? I think that will be unlawful on privacy/personal data protection grounds, unless they make the database secret, in which case it becomes less useful as a piece of "national infastructure". In any case the spatial code would not be the eircode. it would have to go into the database as an additional piece of information and then be linked back to the eircode.
No wonder the costs to the taxpayer are mounting up!

That's conjecture on your part - that could be done by anyone in the private sector easily enough. It would not "have to go" into the eircode database.

recedite

What? You're the one that said "Every address will have a registered spatial code". I assume that not everyone will want to, or be capable of, providing exact GPS coordinates for their address to this database.
So who is going to do it, and will it be publicly accessible?

TheBustedFlush

recedite wrote: »

What? You're the one that said "Every address will have a registered spatial code". I assume that not everyone will want to, or be capable of, providing exact GPS coordinates for their address to this database.
So who is going to do it, and will it be publicly accessible?

it could be done commercial level as part of provision of services to houses with codes for each one.

recedite

So this would be another separate contract put out to tender?
What is the point of eircode then?

TheBustedFlush

recedite wrote: »

So this would be another separate contract put out to tender?
What is the point of eircode then?

don't follow your logic. why does it need to be a public tender? Private sector companies could choose to do this I've thought of two ways in which it could be done and get houses/businesses to engage with it, and provide them with a location code system in setup as a nationally available web system. It wouldn't get everyone but then it doesn't need to get everyone.

That location code system should be mimicked in some way to Eircode design - though I don't know how.

recedite

So now you have gone full circle. Advocating that the state spend €25M on setting up eircode as the official national system (plus recurring annual costs) and then telling people that they can use the more useful (privately operated) loc8 if they actually want to find some place.

Here's what the truckers are saying;

There is literally nothing in Eircode that could not have been developed for London’s first postcodes in 1857. It is an obsolete system before it is even introduced....It makes no provision for the smart economy, geo technologies or geo apps.....
Take, for example, two adjacent houses in Glasnevin, Dublin. One could be D11 ZXQ8, the other one D11 67TR. The four-character unique identifier is completely random, with no sequence or algorithm linking one house to the other. This makes Eircode redundant as a navigation tool.

tvc15

recedite wrote: »

So now you have gone full circle. Advocating that the state spend €25M on setting up eircode as the official national system (plus recurring annual costs) and then telling people that they can use the more useful (privately operated) loc8 if they actually want to find some place.

Here's what the truckers are saying;

Would that really help the truckers? If all houses on a street had a similar post code they would still need the postcode for the street which is going to be semi random anyway. The trucker would still have to look it up and the only difference being looking up a code to find the street might possibly be done with a book but the chances that they are not going to have a postcode enabled GPS is surely tiny

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

Here's what the truckers are saying;

Im not sure i get why truckers have an issue with it? Im assuming that any logistics company will have route planning software that will optimize thier route (using postcodes probably) so the trcuker will just get a list of postcodes to go to in sequential oreder? i.e. thier route for the day, or its probably pre progamed into their navigation system.

Elmo

ukoda wrote: »

Im not sure i get why truckers have an issue with it? Im assuming that any logistics company will have route planning software that will optimize thier route (using postcodes probably) so the trcuker will just get a list of postcodes to go to in sequential oreder? i.e. thier route for the day, or its probably pre progamed into their navigation system.

Why doesn't a separate company go about issuing postcodes and let the consumer decide which is best.

That's a bit dismissive of people who will actually in someway use postcodes. The users won't be ministers or CEO's.

Sam Russell

ukoda wrote: »

Im not sure i get why truckers have an issue with it? Im assuming that any logistics company will have route planning software that will optimize thier route (using postcodes probably) so the trcuker will just get a list of postcodes to go to in sequential oreder? i.e. thier route for the day, or its probably pre progamed into their navigation system.

The problem is that there will be a charge (not insignificant) for the commercial use of Eircode.

recedite

ukoda wrote: »

Im not sure i get why truckers have an issue with it? Im assuming that any logistics company will have route planning software that will optimize thier route (using postcodes probably)

I suppose its because the information required by the route planning software (the exact location of the address) is not actually contained within the eircode.
If logistics management is planning the route in advance, they may be able to use the eircode as a reference number to look-up the geo-coordinates on the auto-address database (provided no data protection laws are breached during that process). But once the truck leaves the depot, if someone wants a parcel to be urgently picked up at, say, one of the "two adjacent houses in Glasnevin, Dublin, D11 ZXQ8, the other one D11 67TR" the trucker may have no info other than "the house is somewhere in Dublin 11".

tvc15

recedite wrote: »

I suppose its because the information required by the route planning software (the exact location of the address) is not actually contained within the eircode.
If logistics management is planking the route in advance, they may be able to use the eircode as a reference number to look-up the geo-coordinates on the auto-address database (provided no data protection laws are breached during that process). But once the truck leaves the depot, if someone wants a parcel to be urgently picked up at, say, one of the "two adjacent houses in Glasnevin, Dublin, D11 ZXQ8, the other one D11 67TR" the trucker may have no info other than "the house is somewhere in Dublin 11".

And how would neighbours having D11 67TR and D11 67TT help him? You still have to look it up somewhere!

antoinolachtnai

The main practical operational problem I see is box-sorting.

How do you quickly sort parcels into the correct van and how does the driver make sure the boxes he has in the van are correct, i.e., that they are all for his delivery area for that particular day?

You could say that he could scan them with a device, but that's a lot of work for doing a check, and what if you need to sort the boxes really quickly, as often happens?

And what if he needs to manually plan or replan his route? The randomised code doesn't really help him much.

This is why operationally it makes sense to have a hierarchical code. It is easy for the sorter to sort the boxes, then for the driver to check whether all the packages are within his delivery area, and then it is easy for him to sort them into groups so that he delivers them in a sensible order.

You could scan them all in and get the computer to draw a map and try to solve the Travelling Salesman Problem, but why bother? Who really does deliveries that way?

MBSnr

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The main practical operational problem I see is box-sorting.

How do you quickly sort parcels into the correct van and how does the driver make sure the boxes he has in the van are correct, i.e., that they are all for his
delivery area for that particular day?

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but they seem to be able to do it now without postcodes, so if it's not an issue now why would it be one when the postcodes come in?

recedite

tvc15 wrote: »

And how would neighbours having D11 67TR and D11 67TT help him? You still have to look it up somewhere!

Not a lot, because 67TR is still a meaningless random number.
What's he needs is a hierarchical, concatenated, self-correcting code which actually contains the location information.
http://technologyvoice.com/2011/03/31/loc8-code-navigating-ireland-with-greater-accuracy

Sam Russell

MBSnr wrote: »

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but they seem to be able to do it now without postcodes, so if it's not an issue now why would it be one when the postcodes come in?

So having a postcode like Eircode is of no use for deliveries. That is €25m down the drain.

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

I suppose its because the information required by the route planning software (the exact location of the address) is not actually contained within the eircode.
If logistics management is planning the route in advance, they may be able to use the eircode as a reference number to look-up the geo-coordinates on the auto-address database (provided no data protection laws are breached during that process). But once the truck leaves the depot, if someone wants a parcel to be urgently picked up at, say, one of the "two adjacent houses in Glasnevin, Dublin, D11 ZXQ8, the other one D11 67TR" the trucker may have no info other than "the house is somewhere in Dublin 11".

unlikely scenario, but the person wanting the pick up would just give the driver the postcode and he'd pop it into sat nav and see where it is and decide best route?

Also, isnt the exact location of the property exactly what is contained in the eircode? granted you need google maps or a sat nav to get to it....but you'd also need that for say a loc8*? i really dont get it

*well actually loc8 doesnt work with google maps

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

So having a postcode like Eircode is of no use for deliveries. That is €25m down the drain.

the system wasnt designed purely for the logistics industry...

Ralphdejones

MBSnr wrote: »

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but they seem to be able to do it now without postcodes, so if it's not an issue now why would it be one when the postcodes come in?

Drivers spend half their day and mine ringing me and asking for directions. I can't wait for proper postcodes to come in and for this country to join the 20th century.

Sam Russell

ukoda wrote: »

the system wasnt designed purely for the logistics industry...

FYP.

TheBustedFlush

recedite wrote: »

So now you have gone full circle. Advocating that the state spend €25M on setting up eircode as the official national system (plus recurring annual costs) and then telling people that they can use the more useful (privately operated) loc8 if they actually want to find some place.

Here's what the truckers are saying;

Where have I advocated that "the state spend €25M on setting up eircode as the official national system (plus recurring annual costs)"?

Anyway your assertion is not even accurate. The stated start-up costs are €16m with €8-9m for recurring costs over ten years. Half of this cost would appear to be the Dept overseeing one state body paying another, so the net cost to the taxpayer is zero.

I never mentioned loc8 either. It could be any location code system that converts GPS coordinates. That's up to the commercial companies. But there are a number of ways of doing it.

Sam Russell

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

Where have I advocated that "the state spend €25M on setting up eircode as the official national system (plus recurring annual costs)"?

Anyway your assertion is not even accurate. The stated start-up costs are €16m with €8-9m for recurring costs over ten years. Half of this cost would appear to be the Dept overseeing one state body paying another, so the net cost to the taxpayer is zero.

I never mentioned loc8 either. It could be any location code system that converts GPS coordinates. That's up to the commercial companies. But there are a number of ways of doing it.

If you start with a bad system, it will never be made right, no matter what you do. Eircode is a bad system, and it is difficult to think of a worse way of doing it.

TheBustedFlush

Sam Russell wrote: »

The problem is that there will be a charge (not insignificant) for the commercial use of Eircode.

There will be a charge for the commercial use of Eircode.

No!

Really?