National Postcodes to be introduced

TheBustedFlush

Sam Russell wrote: »

If you start with a bad system, it will never be made right, no matter what you do. Eircode is a bad system, and it is difficult to think of a worse way of doing it.

Broken record at this point. All I'm pointing out is that if there are gaps in the current system, then they can filled by other solutions - either existing or creation of new ones.

SpaceTime

Well, it looks like it's too late now. The Government is determined to steam roller this through and is going "lalalalala I can't hear you" to anyone who critiques it.

It's basically now politically embarrassing for the Minister or the Department to redesign it and the waste of money would be unjustifiable so we're going to be stuck with PPS numbers for houses.

Ralphdejones

It's PPARS, evoting, and Pulse all over again
This country really is ruled by corrupt cretins

SpaceTime

Ralphdejones wrote: »

It's PPARS, evoting, and Pulse all over again
This country really is ruled by corrupt cretins

I'd say there's an element of wanting to use it to generate income too. If the system were database-free it would just be a piece of national infrastructure we could all use for free. This way, they will try to generate revenue out of it by charging logistic companies and mapping companies for access to the database.

An Post already has that business model in place with GeoDirectory, so I would say there was intense internal lobbying went on to ensure that wasn't undermined in anyway.

Effectively all we're doing is getting GeoDirectory look up reference codes with an area code and a local code that bears no relationship to the physical locations of properties.

Ralphdejones

SpaceTime wrote: »

I'd say there's an element of wanting to use it to generate income too. If the system were database-free it would just be a piece of national infrastructure we could all use for free. This way, they will try to generate revenue out of it by charging logistic companies and mapping companies for access to the database.

An Post already has that business model in place with GeoDirectory, so I would say there was intense internal lobbying went on to ensure that wasn't undermined in anyway.

Effectively all we're doing is getting GeoDirectory look up reference codes with an area code and a local code that bears no relationship to the physical locations of properties.

You can be sure it'll be connected cronies making the money, not the Irish taxpayer.
I thought the whole point of modern effective postcodes were that they are a form of grid reference.
So how are sat navs going to use these codes any more efficiently than a street name ?

L1011

Ralphdejones wrote: »

It's PPARS, evoting, and Pulse all over again
This country really is ruled by corrupt cretins

Both PPARS - renamed to avoid people realising - and Pulse are both actually operational now though. PPARS is the "HSE SAP Payroll System" now as far as I know.

recedite

ukoda wrote: »

unlikely scenario, but the person wanting the pick up would just give the driver the postcode and he'd pop it into sat nav and see where it is and decide best route?

You can pop a loc8 code into a sat nav and it will do that, converting the info in the code back to latitude and longitude.
The only part of the eircode relating to the location is the D11 part. Maybe some time in the future all sat-navs will be connected to the internet, and then the future sat-navs will be able to use the second part of the eircode to look up the govt. database which will then give out the location information. Maybe.

SpaceTime wrote: »

... and the waste of money would be unjustifiable so we're going to be stuck with PPS numbers for houses.

PPS numbers for houses is right. And we already have them; they're called MPRN numbers.

SpaceTime

recedite wrote: »

You can pop a loc8 code into a sat nav and it will do that, converting the info in the code back to latitude and longitude.
The only part of the eircode relating to the location is the D11 part. Maybe some time in the future all sat-navs will be connected to the internet, and then the future sat-navs will be able to use the second part of the eircode to look up the govt. database which will then give out the location information. Maybe.

PPS numbers for houses is right. And we already have them; they're called MPRN numbers.

Revenue launched PAN (Property Access Numbers) too !

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

You can pop a loc8 code into a sat nav and it will do that, converting the info in the code back to latitude and longitude.
The only part of the eircode relating to the location is the D11 part. Maybe some time in the future all sat-navs will be connected to the internet, and then the future sat-navs will be able to use the second part of the eircode to look up the govt. database which will then give out the location information. Maybe.

PPS numbers for houses is right. And we already have them; they're called MPRN numbers.

All the Sat Nav companies are going to buy the database (they'd be bonkers not to) and no internet connection will be needed

google are definately going to buy it too so it will work with google maps.

and nowadays most sat navs are connected to the internet anyway (i.e. smart phones)

recedite

ukoda wrote: »

All the Sat Nav companies are going to buy the database (they'd be bonkers not to) and no internet connection will be needed....
google are definately going to buy it too

Citation needed. Unless this is just you speculating again.

Red Nissan

ukoda wrote: »

google are definately going to buy it too so it will work with google maps.

Google don't need it. One can already simply put a house name into Google Maps and it will pin point the house, even in some country areas, though the entire country is not covered.

ukoda

Red Nissan wrote: »

Google don't need it. One can already simply put a house name into Google Maps and it will pin point the house, even in some country areas, though the entire country is not covered.

they'll still buy it tho, they spent thousands driving a car with a camera strapped on it around the country for streetview - they'll pay the fee for the database too as they'll want it work

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

Citation needed. Unless this is just you speculating again.

my opinion...i assume you can provide a source to your calim above that they wont buy the database? i.e. when you say it will be useless on sat navs?

Sam Russell

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

Broken record at this point. All I'm pointing out is that if there are gaps in the current system, then they can filled by other solutions - either existing or creation of new ones.

The gaps are so huge, that it would be better to abandon it now and stop the wasted money. Creating a fix would be more expensive than starting again, like they did with the plans for Thorton Hall Prison, (abandoned) and the Mater Children's Hospital (started again) or the Bertie Bowl (abandoned). All these at huge expense for nothing useful. Of course, this could be another eVoting jobies.

MBSnr

Ralphdejones wrote: »

Drivers spend half their day and mine ringing me and asking for directions. I can't wait for proper postcodes to come in and for this country to join the 20th century.

Ture but the way I read it now, it is only if they pay the money and it's integrated into their delivery system... Or Google/TomTom etc adds it (are they?). Else they'll still be ringing you....

Ralphdejones

Sam Russell wrote: »

The gaps are so huge, that it would be better to abandon it now and stop the wasted money. Creating a fix would be more expensive than starting again, like they did with the plans for Thorton Hall Prison, (abandoned) and the Mater Children's Hospital (started again) or the Bertie Bowl (abandoned). All these at huge expense for nothing useful. Of course, this could be another eVoting jobies.

Is this joke of a country capable of going anything without corrupt cronieism, gombeenism, and incompetency wrecking it ?
I didn't think they could mess up a simple grid reference system, which are all postcodes are, but no, the Irish will always find a way. Fcking wnkers the lot of them.

antoinolachtnai

MBSnr wrote: »

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but they seem to be able to do it now [sort boxes] without postcodes, so if it's not an issue now why would it be one when the postcodes come in?

Yes, they work it out off the address. The problem at present is that mistakes are often made because addresses are indistinct, and this is what causes delays in delivery. (If your package goes out on the wrong van, it's going to be delayed by a day.)

tvc15

Ralphdejones wrote: »

Is this joke of a country capable of going anything without corrupt cronieism, gombeenism, and incompetency wrecking it ?
I didn't think they could mess up a simple grid reference system, which are all postcodes are, but no, the Irish will always find a way. Fcking wnkers the lot of them.

And what countries exactly have implemented a grid reference system as a postcode?

Ralphdejones

tvc15 wrote: »

And what countries exactly have implemented a grid reference system as a postcode?

Well the UK and NI for one, which they implemented in the six counties over 40 years ago, and works excellently with modern sat navs. Any decent modern postcode is a form of Grid reference.

tvc15

Ralphdejones wrote: »

Well the UK and NI for one, which they implemented in the six counties over 40 years ago, and works excellently with modern sat navs. Any decent modern postcode is a form of Grid reference.

I can't find a reference to the post code in the UK being translatable to a grid reference in any other way than looking up a database (not available for free until recently) like the Irish postcode, am I missing something?

antoinolachtnai

Nope, you are missing nothing. You can only look up 'centroids' for postcodes for free. A postcode applies to a group of tens of addresses. For individual address coordinates you need to pay (although it is actually not that expensive when you consider the licence gives you data on 25 million or so addresses).

With eircode there is no grouping of houses into manageable numbers so there can't be anything like the free postcode database they have in the UK.

recedite

Google, Tom Tom and Garmin are usually happy enough to work with partners and invest money in smart solutions, but they don't like their money to be locked into the ongoing cost of subscribing to other peoples databases.
Google have their own survey team. Garmin already have a deal with loc8.
Tom Tom have a solution called mapcode which could be used to bypass expensive databases, or be used in countries lacking a proper system

'Mapcodes' consist of four to seven characters, and are intended to be easy to remember, simple to communicate, and free. Unlike postal codes, Mapcodes do not need databases that can be expensive to maintain. Instead, anyone can generate a Mapcode using free software by putting in the latitude and longitude of a location.

Mapcode claims the new technology will be particularly useful in countries that don’t have a universal address or postal system.....

Mapcodes can also be used in places where there are reliable address systems in place, allowing delivery companies to bypass the existing postal system.
This could be particularly attractive for businesses in the UK, which currently have to pay to access the Royal Mail's Postcode Address File (PAF) – a collection of over 29 million Royal Mail postal addresses and 1.8 million postcodes.

I can't see any of them being interested in paying for the capita/eircode/autoaddress/geodirectory database.

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

i can't see any of them being interested in paying for the capita/eircode/autoaddress/geodirectory database.

It will be the offical postcode of the nation, I've no doubt they will pay for it, purely for a competitive edge if nothing else, They will want to maximise sales and sticking a gaint label saying "now compatible with Eircode" on the box will boost sales, even if others dont want to pay, they'll have no choice as soon as one sat nav company does it, the rest will lose competitive edge if they dont follow suit.

and again for this same reason google will do it, competitve postioning.

Tow

ukoda wrote: »

I've no doubt they will pay for it, purely for a competitive edge if nothing else, They will want to maximise sales and sticking a gaint label saying "now compatible with Eircode" on the box will boost sales,

For a micky mouse market the size of Ireland......

ukoda

Tow wrote: »

For a micky mouse market the size of Ireland......

if its so micky mouse... why do they even bother selling sat navs here. why did they map the country or buy the maps. why do they continue to update and maintain them. why do they actively market thier products and spend money on adding new features like traffic updates and POI's? :rolleyes:

Red Nissan

Tow wrote: »

For a micky mouse market the size of Ireland......

Garmin market aggressively to American Tourist going to Europe. Even though Google has prominence on the Smart Mobile Products.

Tow

Ireland is just included in the UK versions, does not cost much extra. The rights to the Eircode database will not be cheap and are of no interest to 90% of the market they currently sell the Ireland and Brit models to

ukoda

Tow wrote: »

Ireland is just included in the UK versions, does not cost much extra. The rights to the Eircode database will not be cheap and are of no interest to 90% of the market they currently sell the Ireland and Brit models to

its not included by accident, its included by design. and like i say, they spend money on updating it - money they dont need to spend if they consider it micky mouse. yet they do spend this money on the irish market.

The cost of the database will be a drop in the ocean for TomTom etc and will grealty increase the product features, they will have no hesitation paying it im sure.

SpaceTime

TomTom doesn't bother to map Iceland at all I noticed (when I landed in Reykjavik with my TomTom!)

I had to buy a local 3G/4G SIM and use Google maps, good thing they've cheap data in Iceland on prepay.

I'm amazed though that Google Maps even has house names in Ireland. All of Cork's suburbs have every house name listed and I assume it's the same in the rest of the country.

Any idea how they got that data?

Red Nissan

SpaceTime wrote: »

I'm amazed though that Google Maps even has house names in Ireland. All of Cork's suburbs have every house name listed and I assume it's the same in the rest of the country.

Any idea how they got that data?

No idea but it's feckin BRILLIANT.

I do cold sales, often we find we only have a House Name ~ enter Google Maps Stage Left ~ gottcha, pay up!